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Arkangel, Scorpio Jr. and Mogur vs Super Astro, Mascara Magica and Olimpico, October 4 1996 This was just something interesting that caught my eye rather than something I watched for Arkangel, but I came out of it more impressed by him than in any other match so far. Everyone worked hard and they put together an excellent little pure six man. Mascara Magica's 1996 bears a lot of similarities to Angel Azteca's 1990, with him coming into his own as a worker as he received a big push, and his exchanges with Arkangel were some of his most brilliant all year. Then Arkangel worked Olimpico, another worker on the rise, and it was the same thing. Both guys looked like future stars. Arkangel doing powerbombs and superplexes as just standard rudo offense rather than as highspots was weird, but maybe it was his way of getting noticed. Super Astro was a pro. By this point he was more veteran than star, and he had no problems keeping up with the younger guys or jobbing clean to another wrestler CMLL was high on, Scorpio Jr. You wouldn't think (or I wouldn't, anyway) that Mogur would be in one of the best CMLL matches of 1996, but there it is. Arkangel, Fuerza Guerrera and Black Panther vs Fiera, Mascara Magica and Solar, March 26 1996 The same kind of six man as the one with Mogur, just not as good. For the early part of the match with technical work and the tecnicos in control, they were trying hard but nothing was clicking. They fought through it and eventually had a fairly good match with Fiera vs Fuerza as the focus. Arkangel comes off as a mechanic rather than a brawler, so when the technical stuff falls flat he doesn't end up looking as good, but he had his moments. I liked when he slipped on the ropes while celebrating. He got back on and didn't even sell it, which made it look even more real. Maybe it was, I don't know.

Arkangel vs Solar, October 17 2000 The first fall was either extremely brief or extremely clipped. Second fall started off slow and I was thinking this was a waste of a Solar title match, but they got me back into it by genuinely working holds during a part of the match where the wrestlers have usually moved past that. Solar's stuff I thought looked really crisp here, maybe thanks to Arkangel? The third fall felt dramatic despite some clipping, although the finish was weird, with Arkangel getting the win with a move that Solar had kicked out of earlier. Was it Arkangel importing some Japanese psychology? I don't know but it felt a little flat. Arkangel vs Angel Azteca, December 5 2003 Three fall match crammed into a twelve minute Youtube video. They showed replays between falls and everything. Kind of a pitiful fall for the mask of Angel Azteca. He looked good here though. Arkangel, Nitro and Dr. X vs Tigre Blanco, Virus and Safari, March 21 2003 This was a good match. It wasn't spectacular enough or possessed enough of a singular focus to rise to greatness, but it was good all the way through. I assume this is something that everyone else already knew but WOW was Virus a great tecnico. When he faced Arkangel in the first fall it reminded me of Dandy vs Casas a little bit. It was funny when Arkangel shushed the crowd as he was in the process of fouling Safari. He looked good in these three matches but doesn't jump off the screen as an athlete or a performer. Comparatively, Virus I couldn't help but look for throughout the match.

Arkangel never stood out from the glut of talented athletic rudos to me. I do remember liking the Felino/Arkangel/Halcon Negro vs Rebeldes de Jalisco rudo vs rudo matches, but all I've seen is from the '90s. I don't know what the pimped Arkangel matches are so this will just be grabbing at random stuff. Arkangel vs Gallo, January 28 2014 Decent wrestling and they did a good job of making the last few minutes exciting. It felt like the typical one fall CMLL match where they jump straight from the early portion of the match to the final third. Maybe it was more like a WWE TV match, and Arkangel's holds in the middle of the match were sort of like the holds that the face elbows out of in WWE and not real submission attempts. I didn't like how he kept dropping them to go to a different hold, and there wasn't much separating the tecnico from the rudo here, but it was fine. Arkangel vs Gallo, June 24 2014 One of the matches used to nominate Arkangel. The first fall wasn't that great, with Arkangel wrestling like a tecnico and doing an unnecessary dive instead of building to the finish from the holds, but the rest of the match could have fit right in with '90s CMLL. Arkangel hit a great kneedrop that got some heat, and then a second missed and put Gallo in control. That was smart and simple. His counter to the schoolboy was cool too. All match the announcers referred to him as "el Maestro Arkangel" as if it were his name, and he started to look like a maestro with some of the moves he pulled out in the third fall. On the other hand his chops looked weak, and what kind of maestro needs interference and a ref distraction to win? Weird that they put the fifty year old man over a rising star, maybe that's just modern CMLL. Good match, but it never felt like it was the two best technicians alive nor for the most important belt in the world. Arkangel vs Tigre Blanco, January 25 2000 I realize that it's hard to fit a three fall title match into fifteen minutes, but this was nothing. It was interesting to see Arkangel do the same kneedrop spot here that he did fourteen years later. I'd thought that was an on the spot moment. Tigre Blanco was in an awesome short match with Americo Rocca just the year before, so I was hoping for something good here.

I bet if you made a Youtube playlist of Angel Azteca matches, something like half of it would be from the first six months of 1990. For him to rate as a truly great wrestler he'd have to have been operating on a level that few others have reached. His match with Dandy is still my pick for the best match I've ever seen, but even with that he's still just a borderline top five guy for 1990 CMLL. I don't even know if he stands out among similar briefly pushed tecnicos. Ciclon Ramirez had about the same quality of performances but with much lesser workers. He was probably better than Mogur. Him vs Mascara Magica is a tossup, and who ever talks about Mascara Magica? The AAA run is the best bet for finding stuff that could sneak him into a top 100 list. That Blue Panther match no one talks about, a title match with the Destructores... By the time of his second CMLL return in 1998 he was having trouble keeping up physically. A very gifted technical wrestler who loved showing that side of his game in his prime, but not a maestro type with his holds and didn't try to become one even after he lost his mask. Good Angel Azteca to watch: AA vs Emilio Charles: maybe the best missile dropkick ever AA, Dandy and Jalisco vs Bestia Salvaje, Espectro Jr. and Espectro de Ultratumba: Angel Azteca's brawling and technical work on display against Espectro Jr. AA, Winners and Misterioso vs Katana, Volador and Solar: long Angel Azteca vs Solar duel to start AA and Winners vs Tony Arce and Rocco Valente: title match from AAA with Angel Azteca looking excellent against Arce AA, Super Elektra and Vaquero Romo vs Panterita del Ring, Shu el Guerrero, and Black Dragon: typical Promo Azteca mishmash but Angel Azteca on fire in the first fall

Since you're approaching its air date, you might enjoy this. Not something that moves his standing one way or the other in the annals of great workers, but a nice look at how the company presented Fuerza at that time.

It's a two way street though. One of the ugly moves in that match was Dragon's handspring tope, a move that connected perfectly in his Japan matches with Fiera and Bestia Salvaje. Was he more reckless against Satanico? Possible, but look at how Bestia flies into position to take that move. Could you even imagine Satanico doing that? He wasn't as good a base as those guys were. Really the biggest problem with that match was that it was mostly a showcase for Satanico's 1980s offense, which wasn't going to pop a crowd in 1992 Japan. He also couldn't bump like Dragon's other touring opponents, his biggest being getting chucked off the second rope. Anyway, I don't know why I let Satanico praise get me so wound up. I was needlessly snide about it earlier, sorry.

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Dandy vs Dragon is from Dandy's March 1992 tour of SWS and has been on Youtube for like five years.

I would never have thought about it that way, but you're right. Talisman is maskless, so it can't be before September 1984. (The Fantasticos are all masked, so it can't be from after February 1986.)

This is a very close one. Instinctively I figured that it had to be Fuerza, but when I give it some thought, Pirata is probably the better brawler, even if Fuerza holds his own there. Pirata is probably better working with a team, both as a leader (Bucaneros) and as a follower, although again this is something Fuerza does well too. Fuerza stayed better for longer, I think, but Pirata probably has the stronger taped output from the '80s. They're about equal in great matches, maybe edge to Pirata. So that's almost everything, and it looks like if anything Pirata's out in front. The gamebreaker for me is that I think Fuerza was a couple of levels above Pirata as a technical wrestler. Pirata could hold his own there, but it wasn't that far above the way someone like Perro Aguayo could hold his own there, scraping by to justify holding a belt. Fuerza vs Pantera is a performance that was beyond Pirata, IMO. He has some good title matches (in 1991 he worked a very good thirty minute match with Mascara Sagrada of all people) but I can't imagine being excited for the actual technical work, and that's probably my favorite thing in wrestling. Win to Fuerza, but it's closer than I thought going in.

My vote goes to Kung Fu.

Last time's #29 vs the reigning champ. Two men often maligned as formula workers. Both of them were productive for a long time. Both of them traveled all over, and made even their smalltown stops count. Both of them have great matches captured with handhelds. Is Santo one of the wrestlers who could potentially knock off the man? Santo thread Flair thread

Not to get too dark, but I can't recall any Bret Hart matches that resulted in someone dying. The arguments for Rey's case always seem quantity based. It's great that he's the best WWE TV match worker of all time, but is that such a great thing to be? When I see someone called the best squash match worker of all time or whatever it always sounds like a backhanded compliment. Best WWE TV match worker is a step up from that, but if they were capable of dropping classics then you'd be talking about the classics. Halloween Havoc, classic. After that...maybe I need to rewatch the Psicosis match from AAA? There just aren't that many Rey matches that have entered into legend. The one that often gets cited as Rey's best TV match is the one with Eddy from 2005. I don't know if that's a level above Bret vs Savage, Bret vs 123 Kid, or Bret vs washed up nobody can get anything out of him anymore Bobby Backlund. If you're making a list of TV matches, Rey's list is going to run away with it, but Bret's could hang in there for a little bit, when it's best vs best.

Never thought of Dragon as a sloppy worker myself. But if you're going to knock Orton for being second best in most of his greatest matches then you have to do the same for Dragon, right? What even is his best performance, the 1996 PPV against Mysterio? I think if I saw that a wrestler I really liked was matched up with Dragon, I'd be excited to watch it. If I saw a wrestler I liked matched up with Orton, I'd be curious but I wouldn't necessarily expect something good.

#169 vs #198 from last time. Two guys with generally good reputations, except here, where their nominee threads were largely negative. Career WWE worker vs a guy who had successful runs in Japan, Mexico and the United States but flopped, literally and figuratively, in WWE. Dragon thread Orton Thread

Is there any other worker like him? With some guys you watch the matches hoping to see what spectacular move they'll do this time. With Ciclon it's just one move, you've seen it before, and you still watch in hopes of seeing it again. No dive better conveyed the wrestling universal that you don't want to get hit by high flying offense. Beyond the tope, Ciclon brought a lot to the table. He knew his holds and counterholds. He was a wild bumper who was up for spots that no one else would be crazy enough to do. And he could brawl. Man, could he brawl. It's not hard to imagine an alternate reality in which he spent his entire career working bloody wars on the indies, with only one or two of them surviving into this century and leaving us all wondering who this maniac was and why we couldn't see more of him. Instead he was so talented that he couldn't help working for a major promotion with TV, where they mostly stuck him in the undercard. I wish the Felino program had been better, because that was his big shot, but the closest it ever got to an out of control fight was when it turned into a WWE Divas feud based on ripping each other's clothes off. A while back there were some positive reviews of his IWRG run in 2000, but very little of that is online. The hair vs hair match with Javier Cruz listed upthread is the one to watch, but here are some random matches that I hope demonstrate the appeal of Mr. Ramirez. CR, Blue Demon Jr. and Javier Cruz vs Pirata Morgan, Hombre Bala and Hijo del Gladiador CR and America vs Engendro and Scorpio Jr. CR, Huracan Sevilla and Jinete vs Ciclon Mackey, La Fiera and Espectro de Ultratumba CR and Oro vs America II and Emilio Charles Jr. CR, Ultimo Dragon and Oro vs Negro Casas, Felino and Bestia Salvaje

There are times when CMLL workers, even alltime greats at their peak like Casas in the early 1990s, don't have anything going on, at least not on TV. Between their own programs they'll show up as backup during other wrestlers' feuds, or they'll just work random matches, getting their paydays and pleasing the people who wanted to see them. There are also invisible programs that they'll be working, where they'll have the title match and the exciting matches that build to it, but it's all at Arena Coliseo Acapulco, or one of the untaped Sunday shows in Mexico City, or maybe a non-CMLL territory like Monterrey, so it's not something we can watch in 2021. It's different from the WWF where the untelevised shows are usually just guys working whoever they're partnered with on TV at the moment, but where pretty much everyone important is involved in an angle at all times. Other than the matches listed above, I guess the most interesting thing about Casas in 1993-95 is that he turned tecnico and back to rudo in that span. He spent much of spring/summer '93 as part of the Felino-Ciclon Ramirez program, and it looked like they were setting up an angle between Casas and Felino. Either they weren't, or it was the slowest developing turn of all time, because Casas didn't start teaming with the tecnicos until June 1994. The catalyst, IIRC, was Emilio Charles and Bestia Salvaje beating him up after he lost a match for them, but instead of seeking revenge on them he just dredged up his rivalry with Mocho Cota, which had drawn a decent house for them as a rudo vs rudo program in March. Then Santo joined the promotion in summer of 1995 and Casas almost immediately returned to the rudo side to feud with him.

Couple of months back I got curious and checked out a Satanico match for the first time in years, thinking maybe I'd gotten past my disdain for the guy. It was the December 1995 hair match with Hector Garza, one I'd never read anything about. Garza got to win clean, not something that you see often against Satanico, but what a price to pay. The moves that he used to win each fall were literally his only offense in the whole match. I thought that Satanico vs Octagon from 1991 was the ultimate example of halfassing a job. Unbelievable that he found a way to top it. Another Satanico classic.

Revolutionary mind, but they labeled him a wino. I'm not sure he contributed any vocals to Psycho, just appeared in a music video for it. There's another music video for the song that doesn't include Konnan at all, which would be kind of shitty on Mad One's part.

Thanks for the upload and the link to the alternate upload, guys. I really appreciate it.

It probably has more to do with the fact that women's wrestling from Mexico largely has been ignored by the star rating type of fans. I've been as guilty of it as anyone, maybe more so. There's plenty of Pantera out there to watch, you just have to be content to see her in opening style tag matches, the kind that are on the card just to warm up the crowd. I recommended the Toreo title match with Jaguar Yokota off memory, haven't seen it in probably five years, but I think that was the match that opened my eyes to her. I badly wish someone would upload it.

Pantera Sureña I don't have a strong image of Pantera Sureña as a character. What I can tell you is that she was in the two best women's matches in Mexico that I've seen, one a technical match against Jaguar Yokota in El Toreo and the other a bloody hair vs hair match against Lola Gonzalez in Arena Mexico. She's not flashy and she's not going to jump off the screen at you as a personality, but she was a well rounded worker who stood out in a division that I'm not sure has a single nominee yet. La Galactica vs Jaguar Yokota (May 5 1983) PS vs Jaguar Yokota (May 12 1985) PS vs Lola Gonzalez (December 9 1988)

El Texano Bullish wrestler who could work tecnico or rudo, one of the most skilled guys of his era. He probably doesn't have the matches (I think there are two Texano one vs one matches on video), so you'd have to vote for him on skill or just how much you enjoy watching him. In the late '80s and early '90s he stands out pretty much every match he's in. The most famous part of his career (Misioneros de la Muerte) is barely represented on tape. El Texano, El Dandy and Super Muñeco vs Atlantis, Angel Azteca and Blue Demon Jr. (March 24 1989) El Texano, Apolo Dantes and Mascara Sagrada vs Villano I, Villano IV and Villano V (April 20 1990) El Texano vs El Signo (January 12 1992)

The thing I love about Javier Cruz in this period is how hard he works. He might be my pick for 1994 CMLL MVP just because of the effort he put into every weak idea the company had for him. I don't know if it was professional pride or that he was clinging to his spot for as long as he possibly could. You want me to main event Arena Mexico against Ciclon Ramirez, a year after he was last relevant? Sure, we can have one of the best apuestas matches of the decade. Can I at least get to win? You want me to have a long feud with Americo Rocca, culminating in a hair match? Okay, I didn't know he was even with the company, but yeah we can do a Javieres feud like five years after that was an operating unit. Can I at least get to win? You want me to captain one of the least relevant trios in history with Mogur and Cachorro Mendoza, together losing every TV match we have? I guess winning's out of the question there. Fine, just as long as we get to have a team name.

See, Atlantis is a guy I would say was great for about four or five years. Even if he delivered a great match in 2000 or 2014 he wasn't the consistently electric presence he'd been in the EMLL glory days. Satanico's harder to pin down because his best stuff was in the 1980s and harder to document, but '90s Satanico wasn't exactly a great worker anymore, so it's hard to say how long he was great vs. how long Fuerza was. He'd have to have been special as early as the 1970s to have a big edge on Fuerza. Almost every '80s Fuerza match makes him look good. DJ Spectro recently uploaded a fancam from 1985-86 in which Fuerza works hard and has a good match in Arena Pista Revolucion, the third string EMLL arena in Mexico City. The list at the beginning of the thread is a good place to start. On a smaller scale, I remember when he came back to Arena Mexico in 1995 he was walking around ringside, kneeing Fiera in the groin and then kissing the hand of some woman who always had front row seats. It was this match: Blue Panther y Fuerza Guerrera Regresan a la Arena Mexico en 1995. I thought that captured Fuerza's essence quite nicely.