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I don't get dinging Fuerza for a lack of longevity, like at all. He was born in the early 1950s, same as guys like Americo Rocca. He was over 40 for all of those AAA matches with Rey, Panther, and the gang. Was he supposed to be a force at age 50? You can see from what little we have on him that he was good in the '80s too. And wasn't it 2016 when people were praising him for still being able to have a good match with Octagon at 60+? If the problem is that he wasn't great after 1995 or so, well, that's still six years he was a great worker. Most guys, even the great ones, aren't genuinely great for that long.

He used to post here as Herodes but changed names for some reason. Doesn't look like his old account was banned.

Yeah, I thought they were the better matchup in that fall actually. It's weird to see a forty year old excon getting treated as an equal by a workrate favorite who does powerbombs and moonsaults. They had a title match that was televised but IIRC it's from that period in late 1993 when almost no CMLL made its way into anyone's collections.

Arturito Luchas Monterrey '90s wrestling from Monterrey. Mostly highlights/partial matches, and it looks like "filming your TV" quality video, but most of this is rare stuff, much of it featuring workers of whom we do not have a lot of video. He has the entire first fall of a Dandy/Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas/Mocho Cota match from 1994 and it's a damned good fall.

Shocker vs Emilio: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=453691551895591

Wow, this really has gotten serious.

I don't think that English speaking lucha fandom has ever been large enough or connected enough for there to be a true consensus, but the already mentioned March 1995 AAA match and the November 1991 CMLL match were probably the closest candidates. Last time I watched them, I thought that the rudos got more heat on the tecnicos during the AAA match than I'd remembered, whereas with the CMLL match I thought there was a disconnect between how Satanico wrestled (wrestling even with or even getting the better of the Brazos) versus the other two Infernales (consistently losing their exchanges, at points outright stooging). I don't do star ratings, but when I tried to make a list of top ten Mexican matches for each year from 1988-1999, these were the six-mans that I thought were great: Brazo de Oro/Brazo de Plata/El Brazo vs Pirata Morgan/Hombre Bala/El Verdugo (the rematch, Nov. 1989) Emilio Charles Jr./MS-1/Tierra Viento y Fuego vs Atlantis/El Dandy/Mascara Sagrada (Nov. 1989) Pierroth Jr./MS-1/Ulises vs El Dandy/Mogur/Popitekus (Jan. 1990) Danny Boy/Lasser/Robin Hood vs Tigro/Panthro/Leono (title match, Aug. 1990) La Fiera/Jerry Estrada/Bestia Salvaje vs Blue Demon Jr./El Hijo del Solitario/Huracan Sevilla (Jan. 1992) Perro Aguayo/Rayo de Jalisco Jr./Konnan vs Cien Caras/Sangre Chicana/Mascara Año 2000 (Mar. 1992) Negro Casas/La Fiera/Bestia Salvaje vs El Dandy/Ringo Mendoza/Ultimo Dragon (Jul. 1992) Atlantis/Lizmark/Ultimo Dragon vs Negro Casas/Emilio Charles Jr./Bestia Salvaje (Jul. 1992) Atlantis/Pierroth Jr./El Dandy vs El Satanico/Emilio Charles Jr./La Fiera (Nov. 1992) Psicosis/Heavy Metal/Picudo vs Rey Misterio Jr./Winners/Super Calo (the rematch, Feb. 1993) Negro Casas/El Felino/Bestia Salvaje vs Ciclon Ramirez/Oro/Ultimo Dragon (Mar. 1993) El Dandy/Silver King/Ultimo Dragon vs Emilio Charles Jr./Pierroth Jr./Javier Llanes (Jan. or Feb. 1994) Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Jerry Estrada vs Super Astro/Volador/Transformer (Jan. 1995) El Hijo del Santo/La Parka/Octagon vs Eddy Guerrero/Santo Negro/Psicosis (Feb. 1995) El Hijo del Santo/Rey Misterio Jr./Octagon vs Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Psicosis (Mar. 1995) Negro Casas/El Dandy/Hector Garza vs El Hijo del Santo/Bestia Salvaje/Scorpio Jr. (rematch of the Santo turn match, Nov. 1996) Virus/Zumbido/Halcon Negro vs Olimpico/Kendo/El Oriental (Jun. or Jul. 1998) Dr. Wagner Jr./Blue Panther/Black Warrior vs Atlantis/Emilio Charles Jr./El Felino (Jan. 1999) Dr. Wagner Jr./Blue Panther/Black Warrior vs Atlantis/Emilio Charles Jr./El Felino (this was a pair of matches, a brawling match first and a title match the week after) That was a project from a while ago, and some of these have faded in my memory, so I will bold the ones that still stick out to me as MOTY level.

Disappointing. I'd rather see an argument for her as the Michael Jordan of the WWF, the same way that Randy Orton is the Tom Brady of the WWF.

I'd say he is or was just as self serious as Douglas. He has a sense of humor, but it's usually directed at others rather than at himself. And remember that video game ad or something, where the only rule was that they could not show HHH on the receiving end of a move? I doubt that even Douglas would have been that petty. Yeah, it was nice to learn that Cornette wanting wrestlers to sell too much for him was not something that originated in SMW.

Andre vs Hogan is not a bad pick I think. Is that the first real "Wrestlemania moment" in terms of a specific move during a match? Stuff like that and the Snuka cage dive define what the WWF wanted out of its biggest matches back then. It doesn't seem to be much remembered now, but Liger vs Pillman would be a match that's along the same sort of evolutionary path as the Guerrero vs Malenko match. Although with Guerrero/Malenko I'd add that it also resembled modern matches in the audience not really caring who won or lost but just being excited by the skill on display and the fact that it was wrestled in their promotion.

Yes, it's a shame more of them can't be blind fanboys who interact with the rest of the world solely to hammer us over the head with their banal opinions. Because that way they'd at least hold the right beliefs, like that year seven will finally be the year that Big Rome becomes the Steve Austin that we all know he has inside of him.

The trained boxer part mattered, the one hundred pounds didn't. Gunn was the same size as Butterbean, probably bigger unless they really exaggerated when billing his height. Bean was just fat.

Mascara Magica was pushed for a minute in the late '90s, lost his mask to Satanico in some cluster cage match in the early '00s. Perro took someone else's mask in Monterrey around the time he got Konnan's. I don't remember whose, might have been a Huracan Ramirez. (Actually it was Stuka, bigger name than any of the unoriginal Huracanes) Psicosis suffered the ignominy of losing his mask twice to unmasked wrestlers, Rey Misterio Sr. in Mexico and Kidman in the USA. Juventud lost his to Chris Jericho in America, don't know who got him in Mexico (no one, it turns out, he just stopped wearing it there after he lost it in the states).

He's 99% to blame in the sense that as the big boss he approves everything, but apportioning blame like that is pretty simplistic. Wasn't his MO famously to avoid mentioning wrestler's pasts elsewhere? I doubt he came up with the idea of highlighting a guy's work in Japan. Doubt he even knew all that much about it. IIRC when he introduced himself to Foley he said something like, "Hi, Mike." The original Mankind push was more his style, monster heel coming in, looking dangerous for a few months to build to the big match when the face takes him down. The NWO blurred the reality line in an entirely different way. Their appearances felt more real than the rest of the show, and that was for only a very brief time. They weren't encouraging a peek behind the curtain. Oh, I forgot the book. His was the first and most influential one.

Hacks wouldn't have imitated him if he did it unsuccessfully.

Are these really the two biggest problems with today's wrestling? Are they in the top ten? One of the biggest issues with present day wrestling is that no one is willing to buy into it. Matches are performances and wrestlers are performers playing a character. Obviously that was a natural progression of things to some extent, but that's something I think you really could say that goes back to Foley. I'm sure the funny stuff like him showing up in the hospital with a sock helped get him over, but he was one of the first to really embrace his fans cheering for the man behind the mask, so to speak. That's what made his title reign so emotional, the fact that it was Mick Foley finally achieving the dream after over ten years of hard work and sacrifice, more than just Mankind avenging a couple of screwjobs pulled by Vince and Rock. Compare that to Austin in the same era. He was getting cheered for being a badass, not because he overcame Bischoff and Hogan holding him down to finally get a push at the top of the card. Now Foley stories are commonplace, maybe even the template for a truly successful connection with the fans. Cody Rhodes and Daniel Bryan have a lot more in common with him than they do with Austin.

Wow, that's a really impressive list of Mexican legends, and Volador Jr. is on it too.

NWA World Heavyweight: Ricky Steamboat vs Ric Flair, May 7 1989 NWA World Lightheavyweight: El Dandy vs Black Warrior, October 15 1996 NWA World Middleweight: Angel Azteca vs El Dandy, June 1 1990 NWA World Welterweight: Americo Rocca vs Mocho Cota, January 27 1984 CMLL World Heavyweight: Silver King vs Apolo Dantes, June 23 1995 CMLL World Lightheavyweight: Pierroth Jr. vs Satanico, 1993 or so CMLL World Middleweight: El Dandy vs Negro Casas, July 3 1992 CMLL World Welterweight: Mascara Magica vs El Felino, May 21 1996 CMLL World Mini: Damiancito el Guerrero vs Cicloncito Ramirez, January 7 1997 CMLL World Trios: Dr. Wagner Jr./Blue Panther/Black Warrior vs Atlantis/Emilio Charles Jr./El Felino, January 22 1999 UWA World Heavyweight: Canek vs Dos Caras, February 2 1992 UWA World Lightheavyweight: El Signo vs El Texano, January 12 1992 UWA World Middleweight: Negro Casas vs Ultimo Dragon, March 26 1993 UWA World Welterweight: El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr., May 14 1992 UWA World Lightweight: Espanto Jr. vs El Hijo del Santo, 1988 WWA World Middleweight: Super Astro vs Leon Chino, 1990 WWA World Welterweight: El Hijo del Santo vs Blue Panther, April 9 2000 National Lightheavyweight: Lizmark vs Jerry Estrada, June 18 1993 National Middleweight: Atlantis vs El Faraon, March 22 1985 National Welterweight: Heavy Metal vs El Hijo del Santo, October 29 1993 National Parejas: Atlantis/Angel Azteca vs El Dandy/El Texano, March 31 1989 National Trios: Los Arqueros del Espacio vs Los Thundercats, August 17 1990

Arena Coliseo Guadalajara in the early 1990s reused a lot of older, somewhat famous gimmicks. They had updated versions of Los Gemelos Diablo, El Jalisco, Torbellino Negro and probably plenty of others. The Ciclon Mackey in this match is probably one such character, as the original wrestled in the 1930s and supposedly hailed from Ireland, whereas this one does not appear to be in his eighties or nineties and is called a local by the announcers. With four guys I knew were good and one who'd been fine in the few matches I'd seen from him, it was Mackey, who I knew nothing of and lacks even a Luchawiki page, who I guessed might be a weak link in this. Instead this was a match that was about him and he made it count. He beat the hell of out his fellow Ciclon with some of the best headbutts I've ever seen as rudo offense, and then when it was time to turn the tables he was up for some big bumps in return. The star of the match was Ramirez, though. I know he was featured in a big feud with Felino around this time, but talk about an underused talent. His selling consisted of these amazing contortions, both on his bumps and while writhing around on the mat, that I doubt anyone could match except possibly Emilio Charles. It turned a simple head to the turnbuckle spot into a devastating blow. Later on he gave everything back, actually went further than Mackey did, throwing a row of chairs on him and smashing the man's face into the ringpost. In the third fall they slugged it out before dropping to their knees to exchange headbutts. I watched pretty much all of the Ramirez vs Felino stuff from 1993 and I can tell you that nothing that awesome happened in any of those matches. Only Javier Cruz managed to tap into this side of Ciclon Ramirez in Arena Mexico. He probably was best suited for small arena brawls like this, but was too talented for that and ended up getting signed by a company that ensured that fans decades later would get to know who he was. Fiera contributed some crazy bumps that he didn't really need to do on a show like this in a match that wasn't even about him, and Espectro had maybe my favorite sell of a quebradora ever. It's interesting to me that this went back to back with a bloody rudos vs rudos match that had a lot of the same elements, like guys picking up the chairs. You'd think the booker wouldn't want that, because then the crowd wouldn't react as strongly for the main event, but it didn't stop the fans in the front row from giddily offering their seats as a potential landing spot for Mackey. I know Ciclon Ramirez is a bit of a cult figure, so his fans might be pleased to know that this was actually part of an extended feud between the two Ciclones, and a rare chance to see Ramirez as a central figure in anything outside of the neverending Felino feud. They were in six mans on the two shows after this, but either that was it or the final showdown wasn't on TV. Even the Youtube comments (well, one Youtube comment) wondered where the blowoff was. Oh well. Ciclon doesn't fly, and I can't imagine anyone getting tired of watching that man do his dive, but after a fight like that I didn't even feel cheated.

This got four stars from whatever kind of crazy person rated Arena Coliseo Guadalajara matches back in 1992. Knowing nothing of any of these six men I expected some kind of crazy flying display with everyone wanting the match to steal the show. It was not that. Poseidon is not a tecnico with a flashy costume, he is just some guy. He's got a black singlet on and he blasts people with elbows and digs his foot into the torn eyehole of his opponent's mask. La Araña Atomica was a Spiderman ripoff long ago (or he might have been the son of the Spiderman ripoff actually) but in 1992 he was dropping chairs on Torbellino Negro. This was rudos vs rudos with blood, a DQ for some kind of metal spike, and nonstop violence up until the end from a bunch of guys I'd never seen before. It wasn't the most focused match, because there wasn't one major matchup, so you didn't have one specific guy or pairing to pay attention to, but they compensated by having something interesting/violent on screen at all times. I didn't like them finishing with dives, though. Not very befitting of rudos vs rudos. To whatever moderator approves these, I guessed with the formatting of the Gemelos' names, but I don't know what they were individually called. The date could be wrong too, as this supposedly aired on a Wednesday, September 2 1992 was a Wednesday, and wrestling shows didn't usually air live or a full week behind, but I figured I'd just stick with the luchadb date.

He kind of had the problem of being a similar wrestler to Atlantis and wrestling in the same promotion as Atlantis but not really being better at anything than Atlantis, who was an established star beforehand. Then he tried his hand in AAA but didn't fit in with the style like he did in the CMLL. Highlights from AAA include a feud and title match with Blue Panther, and a career ending injury at the hands of Los Payasos. Never fear though, for mysterious newcomer Charro would hit the scene shortly thereafter, doing all of Angel Azteca's signature armdrags.

Oh yeah, Rey Mysterio putting his mask back on. The unmasked years were probably the low point of his career. Then right when he joined WWE people started talking about him as one of the best in the world again.

Negro Navarro was a star in the 1980s as part of the Misioneros de la Muerte, but by the late 1990s he was basically just a name from the past. He overhauled his working style into something new, basically inventing maestro wrestling, and made himself a consistent presence on the indies for years afterward.

Ever see La Parka before he got the Parka gimmick? Principe Island/Super Angel v. Climax/Master Astro Boy & Guerrero Samurai vs. Los Invasores Del Norte A talented wrestler to be sure, but nothing in those two videos would make you think he had it in him to become one of the most charismatic workers of the past 25+ years. (This comes with a couple of caveats: he was never an EMLL regular, so maybe he had more connection with the Monterrey crowds, and that second video is just a few brief highlights. For the record, he's the guy in the blue pants in the first one and the guy in the blue outfit and white boots in the second.)

El Dandy vs Emilio Charles Jr. had been a hot feud during the summer, but it had cooled off, at least on TV, after their inconclusive hair match. Heading into the last shows of the year at Arena Mexico, the promotion decided to revive it in order to settle things between the two men. This match was what made their rivalry an issue again. It's not a display of classic three on three wrestling full of athleticism and doubleteaming, and it's not a crazy brawl all over the arena. It's more of a one on one with four other wrestlers involved, and a captivating performance by Emilio Charles. Dandy was on his game for this one. TVF cheapshotted Atlantis early on, and Dandy just charged straight at him and slugged him out of the ring, no finesse needed. Of course then Emilio came in from behind to get Dandy out of there. He prolonged the attack a bit, but he was making sure that his team kept the advantage, and he's a rudo so it's his nature. Dandy wasn't the type to let that slide, though, and after the rudos had their way with Mascara Sagrada he stepped right back in and called Emilio into the ring. Charles wasn't having it, with MS-1 instead offering himself as an opponent, but Dandy knew how to work around that. A sucker right hand sent Emilio bouncing off the apron and rolling into the aisle. Just like that the momentum swung towards the tecnico team, and Atlantis whizzed through an exchange with TVF, culminating with a dropkick that sent the gangly rudo outside of the ring... where you could see Charles still back in the aisle, yet to have recovered from that shot to the face. After that he pretty much had to get into the ring the next time Dandy entered. That was what Dandy had wanted to begin with, and he won that exchange handily to kick off the winning pinfalls for his team. As the referees counted the falls, Dandy and Charles missed each other with some wild punches, at which point Emilio threw up his hands and backed off. Dandy followed him outside the ring, but Gato Montini got between them. Any further fighting would have to wait until the next fall. Strangely, the replay they showed was actually action from the second fall, a pretty big gaffe on Televisa's part. Emilio looked ready for a change of pace. He got into the ring to face his old rival Atlantis at the sound of the whistle, but Atlantis immediately went over and tagged in Dandy. Emilio had this great annoyed look on his face as he stepped right back onto the apron. That's when Dandy charged in and spat in his face. Well then. Emilio stood frozen in shock for a moment before heading up the aisle and out the door. Getting outwrestled and even embarrassed was one thing, but Emilio wasn't going to stick around for this kind of treatment. The crowd was cheering and even the grand old commentator Pedro Septien was cracking jokes about it, saying that, haha, clearly baseball is not the only sport that has a spitball. Back in the ring MS-1 was livid, demanding Emilio get his ass back there and explaining to the ref that a match could not possibly be expected to continue three on two (which was a bit rich coming from a man who based his entire career on the three on one beatdown, but then that's why I love MS-1). Obviously Emilio couldn't go out like that. He sheepishly headed back to the ring and from that point on they may as well have just kept the camera trained on him. Atlantis and MS-1 were squaring off in the ring, a matchup that was (half of) the main event at the anniversary show, and the fans were ignoring them to heckle Charles. Finally Dandy scared TVF out of the ring, and once again Emilio had to come in if he wanted to leave with any of his pride that night. He was still hesitant to engage Dandy, but all it took was one quick cheapshot from MS-1 to give Emilio the opening he needed. He tore into his foe with right hands, stomps, slams, his teeth, whatever he could think of, and now Dandy was bleeding badly and the match had been turned on its head. Septien was great in calling this, explaining that Dandy had brought this upon himself by spitting in the face of a man who had been world champion, and now he was paying the consequences. Wrestling is better when being a world champion makes you dangerous. There was this great shot, probably unintentional, as the rudos were wrapping things up at the end of the fall. Emilio walked across the ring almost in a daze, unaware of anything around him but El Dandy. While MS-1 steadied himself on the top rope, Emilio stood in the foreground, and as the crowd started to chant at him again you could feel all eyes on him instead of the guys in the background who were actually doing wrestling moves. Infuriated, Charles leapt outside to kick Dandy while he was down, but Dandy wouldn't let him have even that and started kicking back. Charles had to run him into the post to put him out. The third fall started with Charles all over his tormentor. Dandy was reeling around the ring, his neon tights now largely reddish brown on the front, as Charles pounded him at will. Eventually Emilio went for an Irish whip for some reason, and soon he was sliding across the arena floor on his ass with Dandy in pursuit. Now Charles was bleeding and Dandy was giving back every bit of punishment he'd received over the last fall. They started slugging it out in the center of the ring, and Emilio actually won that with a hard kick, only to immediately catch a dropkick to the face from Mascara Sagrada. There were, you might remember, four other wrestlers in the match, and they were ready to wrap things up. Mascara Sagrada dove/fell onto MS-1 from the top rope, and Atlantis tied up TVF in a tirabuzon, signalling the end for the rudos, but Dandy knocked Atlantis and TVF outside with a dropkick intended for Charles. The crowd roared in anticipation when Emilio realized that his quick thinking had left him alone in the ring with Dandy. They went at it long enough for the others to recover, but everyone seemed to realize that this was something more important than just this match and held back to cheer on their guy. It took a little bit for Emilio to fully regain his senses. Soon enough all was right, and he was yelling back at the crowd and gesturing that he was coming for Dandy's national middleweight belt. He got that shot the next week, and he lost that match, but for one night he was on the verge of utter humiliation, being laughed right out of Arena Mexico, and he came back not only to get revenge but to win perfectly cleanly against the man who had embarrassed him. That's not a title belt but that's certainly something to remember, and as far as quick setups for a one on one match go this was done about as well as it could have been.