El Dragon

Yeah, it was a talking point for a while. Only Kong, Toyota, Hokuto, and Bull made it last time, with Chigusa (110), Jaguar (114), Dynamite (125), Meiko (130), Ozaki (133), Devil (135), and Kandori (146) getting somewhat close. I imagine at least half of those make the top 100 this time if the push is strong enough.

Having your leg worked over extensively for 15 minutes and then running around hitting dropkicks the moment you go on offense is certainly less realistic then having difficulty running after having your knee bent to pieces, and I don't know how to take the idea that we should just ignore it because "she's expressing her own style". She can express her own style, and I can absolutely deny her idea of greatness is actually great. She's had some solid performances in my watching. She's also had 30 minute matches that I would have finished bottom 3 if it were in a "Set" like the DVDVR ones, and that were basically unwatchable by the end. It's possible the more footage I watch I'll get more impressed by, but at the moment, she wouldn't be in my top 250, let alone top 100. Would be a nice surprised if she can win me over though.

I should clarify meaning more around this board. A common thing I'd hear is her only elite years are in 93-94, when I think it's more she found a different level then almost any wrestler you will ever see in those years but was already a best in the world candidate before that. You basically covered and explained what I do think happened overall: The Dangerous Queen run was so good that in hindsight her earlier work gets underplayed which I think hurts the narrative around her career. One you watch year by year it becomes so much more clear what she actually is.

I can’t say anything on new footage, but I can say Martel was my personal favorite of the AWA set on watching. Incredibly good babyface performer who I’ve thought every performance he gave no matter the opponent ranged from really good to great. The 80 stuff in Portland did nothing to convince me otherwise either, Rose/Martel is a classic rivalry, and I wish we got more extended matches of them against each other. I need to layout my rankings a bit more, but overall it’s been a blast every time he’s popped up on footage, to the point he just might sneak into my top 10 range.

What I’m gathering from this thread is that if someone, like me, per say, doesn’t care for Strong Style “Let’s trade strikes in the ring for 60 seconds just prove who is tougher” Ishii at all, there probably is no salavaging him at all, yes? It’s a style of match in modern wrestling I usually can’t stand much, and while I think Ishii is pretty good at it by comparison to the rest, I was hoping there was some of him working a different style role to dig my teeth into.

Personally I don’t think anything Taker did really hurt him or help him, just because I’m not gonna view a guy doing one offs as a big plus or minus. If he was around on weekly TV stinking up the joint (The Ric Flair in the mid 2000’s game) it would stick with me more. Taker is going to be an interesting debate again. I voted for him in 2016 and while I have some regrets on that ballot, Taker appearing on it isn’t one of them overall. Yeah, a lot of his stuff pre 98 or so is awful but I think that’s a Fiend Wyatt thing where there was no making those good, and he had enough good appearances in e 2000-10 era I think he’s viable. Not sure he cracks my list again but I’m considering him.

I have clear bias on this subject, as stated in the pod, but the original Epic Encounter with Paul London is almost my ideal wrestling match. No real storyline just a basic rivalry and an incredibly well worked 2/3 falls match were everything feels earned the entire match. Nobody else would probably put it at that the level I do, but I'd register it as a signature match.

Lesnar is interesting because I generally agree with Matt D's criticisms of his style while also always finding myself engaged in his big matches when he's fully into them. I also think the 2020 Rumble performance was generally about as good and fun of a Rumble showcase ever. It was such a fun divergence of the usual Rumble tropes and I think it hit it completely out of the park. Brock I think will be in a similar position he was last time for me. I can't see him NOT making my list, because he does bring something truely unique and I credit him for that. But the frustrations with him are justified, and I'm not sure I can go top 50 for him.

I've always described Becky as an interesting case because her biggest strength as a worker when she was one of the hottest young female acts coming up was stuff she very rarely gets to use in WWE: She was an amazing at mat exchanges early in her career, some real fun stuff with Daizee Haze in Shimmer, and watching her (before the age of 20) work the mat was a joy, and I love me some good mat work exchanges and chess match stuff. The only real chance we've ever gotten to see that in WWE was really the Sasha match, which would be in my top 5/10 of the 2010's. It's incredibly impressive she managed to become what she did while also generally having to completely readjust her style, as well having to take over half a decade outside of the ring. I love her, but if she is going to make my list, it would take a strong next 5 years to get her there. All 4 of the Horsewomen are in that same situation, where they'd be in my top 200 right now, and could land in the top 100 if things break right.

Can we get all of Hunter and Shawns students to take the advice of taking 10 minutes off there matches too please?

I think it's that, having a plus 20 minute match with old ass Hunter that's legit great, and his ability to get a huge moment and awesome match out of Kofi, who was solid in that match but nowhere close to Bryan, remains his most impressive WWE performances.

I remember his team with Rowan had some fun stuff, though I can't pinpoint the exact matches either.

In 2016 I put Eddie Kingston 98th. I put him that low due to being embarrassed and wanting to make a ballot that fit with consensus then with my actual opinion. That won’t happen again. I’ll go into greater detail when I’m not on clock. But I will lead with Kingston is right up there with Savage, Rhodes, and Guerrero specifically in the element that character work in promos HAS to be included with these guys because they are all in a package. He has a over 15 years of being able to talk me into the building and then paying it off and making me felt like it was worth my virtual ticket. He makes me give a fuck about winners and losers because I either won’t to see him get his moment or his deserved beating. Id be stunned if he’s not in my top 50.

If there’s a listing of this style in order for World of Sport I’d be very interested as well, though that’s probably just as big of an undertaking

This shit is why I was so excited to have this back, btw.

I also remember an argument against him last time being he hadn’t proven he could work as a top heel and actually be a Hated Heel. Then the Planets Champion gimmick happened, and that had to end that. He’s my working No.1 and it will take a lot to nudge him, but there are guys who can probably give him a run.

I’m not ready to go quite as high as Steven is, yet. But Hokuto is jump off the page good to me in 90-91. Outstanding bumper and seller, killer looking offense, very very strong at the in between stuff. She’s not the total character she ends up becoming, but she’s a high point of every match I’ve seen her in. At present, she’s in my top 25, and could see her moving up.

Amusingly Dunne was a guy I thought was on a trajectory to a real player in 2026 until he got NXTified. I haven’t seen a guys career arc get utterly dismantled in terms of “them losing what makes them actually really good to instead put on mindless sprints that lose there appeal fast” as fast as Dunne outside of Gargano.

Continuing that train of thought, it’s super early but that’s kind of the fun of these prediction: Pick 5 wrestlers who made the Top 100 last time that won’t this time, and 5 who didn’t but will this time. Making it in: Chris Hero Meiko Satomura Jaguar Yokota Minoru Suzuki Roman Reigns (there are some New Japan guys I could add but that’d be boring to list) Missing Out: Shinsuke Nakamura Dusty Rhodes Sami Zayn Kerry Von Erich Rick Rude

Steven might beat me to this, but there a lot of Shimmer era workers that didn’t get nominated last time that probably should have been, and some of them deserve deeper thought. Lacey, Daizee Haze, Sara Del Ray, and Madison Eagles are kind of lost great wrestlers from that era we just very infrequently saw get a chance to stand out, but when they did they were frequently very good. I didn’t mention Mercedes Martinez because Steven is gonna be loud on that one.

Regarding the current discussion points. I'm just one guy, but Rick Martel is someone who skyrocketed up the rankings, even past the point I thought he would, from his AWA and Portland work. I legitimately think he's about the best babyface I've ever seen . Love his fire, love how much he makes every single hold or move he puts on look as full effort as possible, he's a top 10-20 guy for me at present. On the other hand, I came away mostly unimpressed by Curt Hennig through the AWA set. He had some great matches against Bock/Hansen, but the Hansen match was the only one I ever thought he came across as "As good as the other guy", and every time he had to lead a match he regularly let me down. Him finishing 55 last time is something that always confused me. I also think a common thing this go around will be a moderate tear down of a lot of the Crockett/WCW guys that dominated last time. So much of there high placement last time seemed to be "Everyone knows they are good, everyone has seen them, and it led to some placements that were not great. (Just as a general example, I don't understand the case for Pillman over Waltman, but that's a minor example)

I get your argument, but I think the main thing the footage actually hurts is that we have tons of evidence to point the soft spots around a worker. Ishii is guy who if you just add up “most 4 star matches” on some people’s scales would finish super highly: but that’s not how I evaluate wrestling, even if I did view most of those matches in the 4 star range (and I don’t). One of the main things that will always elevate a wrestler to me is versatility. And to be quite blunt, I don’t find him a versatile performer, and I know exactly what to expect from him in most of his matches tends to take away all the “specialness” others tend to get from his matches. Ishii probably has 20 times as many 4 star matches as Willian Regal, for instance, but in no way do I buy him as an actual better wrestler.

Having pretty recently gone through the AWA set, I don’t think ranking Heenan would be crazy and he might sneak into my bottom 20. “Wrestler playing a Manager who can’t wrestle” is a genre of wrestling, and 80% of people who play it suck at it. Heenan was legit incredible at that specific element of wrestling, best of all time at it by a wide margin. Add in he’s a center figure of a match that I have at 4 1/2 (Six man with Patera and Ventura vs. Hogan and High Flyers), and he’s on my list of people to consider

Without going into too much detail, I had Eddie Kingston at 98 last time and was self conscious about including him at all. This time around he's going to be in my top 50, it's just a matter of how high I can get him.

The Joshi watching Mondays have been a real treat. Except for Toyota.