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I am probably higher on Hart than most people around here from what I have seen, but it would be Steamer for me. I started seriously rating matches about 6 months ago and Steamboat has a ton of high rated matches. Even stuff that is sort of good not great (the Regal series, which I liked, but it didn't hold up as well to close scrutiny for me) I tend to come away with a higher opinion of Steamboat because of how fluid he is and how quickly and fluidly he works through any little hiccup in a match. I have a working list that may or may not be ultimately submitted, but Steamboat is a guy flying up it.

I don’t really have anything new here. I am sort of just getting familiar with Lawler from his pre wwe stuff. I had seen matches here and there, but got the Memphis set and scratched the surface with it recently. I am saving the Dundee matches, but I watched the Funk no DQ and empty arena matches, as well as the little impromptu title match with Flair and a few other random matches here and there. I came away really liking Lawler, but I am just not sure how much. His timing is what stood out the most to me. I think its been touched on a number of times, but he just knew exactly when to do things (sell a big bump, start a comeback, lay in his punches. I am on the fence about where I see him on a list though. If I were to submit he would probably be top 25 right now with some definite potential to move up. I feel like he would be a guy I would have to do a lot of 1v1 comparisons with other top guys to figure out exactly where he fit on my list. The biggest downside is the lack of diverse offense. I am a guy who likes pretty minimalist brawls too. I don’t want a spot fest, but with Lawler it does sort of stand out a little more to me. I am holding off on watching more until I can dedicate some time to watching Memphis for a few days and get more immersed in the psychology. Maybe it wont stick out quite as much. Hell it might even turn into a positive. There is just a lot for me to still watch, but as someone just really diving into a lot of great wrestling right now and really getting into the 80s stuff in some detail I remain a little conflicted on just how great he is in my mind. If this were a list of smartest wrestlers or best wrestling minds Lawler might be the man to beat for me.

This, for me. I mean I said a bunch about him, but really was just rehashing some stuff that people I assume thought about him the first time he really came up in these circles. He will definitely be top 10 for me and could break my top five. If this were a "favorite" wrestler every list he would probably be number 2 (or 1, depending on the day you asked me to turn it in).

I started about 5 months ago keeping a spreadsheet. I started because I started thinking about participating in the greatest wrestler project and I needed a way to sort through everything. I make an entry for everything 4 stars or better OR if it is part of a feud that I think is important or is just a match I like or think is interesting for some other reason. I also don't rate a contemporary match as I watch. For example, I haven't rated the two recent taker vs brock matches yet because I haven't watched them again. I record all the details of the match I can find, star rating, and about a paragraph or two just to remind myself of what i liked and disliked. I usually keep bullet points as I watch and then every few days or a week I will write up the paragraphs and actually put them on the spreadsheet. I keep a master sheet that is organized by star rating. I also keep sheets by promotion, wrestler, and feud. I just copy and past the lines into those others once they are on the master sheet. Even after the greatest wrestler project is done I will probably keep doing this because it gives me direction and structure in my watching, especially since I have SOOOOOOOO much new (for me) stuff to be watching right now.

I noticed that he looked small, but it only really stood out when there was a cluster of guys. I didn't think it stood out when it was just one other person because it really more accented how big someone else was. Even though I "noticed" it doesn't "matter". Styles was bumping and selling like a star. His athleticism stood out much more than his size. I think if anything it will actually help him because they can really sell how gifted he is and focus on his pound for pound strength and athleticism without really highlighting his size that much. I never underestimate WWE's talent for losing talented people in their shuffle of mundane and narrow storytelling, but I came away thinking Styles is going to be just fine and has a real chance to be superstar for them.

One of the greatest sins of this show was Reigns NOT being stretchered out. He was tough guying it by not getting on the stretcher and walking out on his own power, but that begs the question, why didn't he insist on getting back in the ring? It was one of those little misses that just piss me off. Instead of him looking like he was forced to the back he looks like was volunteering for a break.

If HHH is still champ at Mania his entrance is going to be him literally having the entire roster lay down on the ramp as a human carpet that he rides down on an 80 foot mechanical dragon holding a sword made of fire.

Overall I kind of liked the show, but the rumble just felt me deflated a bit. Owens vs Ambrose was a good match, my favorite of their little feud so far. Usos vs New Day was fine. I was a little distracted, but it kind of struck me as just fine, but nothing special. U. S. Title match was deceptively fun. My wife is not a wrestling fan and she randomly got really into this one. She insisted that Del Rio was a jerk. I honestly thought it was probably the best Del Rio match since his return match with Cena It got a little off the rails at the end though. I thought the women's title match was another "fine" match. They have both done better and they have both done better with each other. It wasn't bad at all, but I was kind of hoping for more. Sasha was fantastic. I think her skill was on display in just how aggressive and sharp the few things she did were. The Rumble was overall good, but I just felt like this begged for a real surprise. HHH winning was not a real surprise. They were smart to swerve everyone with the Reigns come back. I honestly think the audience would have probably been more down on the HHH win if they weren't rooting so hard against Reigns. Styles coming in early was great, lots of time to hit his moves and "no shame" in getting eliminated when he did. I just am not that excited about the stories coming out of the Rumble so I felt sort of ho-hum about the whole thing.

oh I don't think he SHOULD be a heel, especially if he finally returns, at least not anytime soon, but I think there is a time and place for everything in wrestling if it is done skillfully and always imagined that Bryan - if (big IF) they gave him the reigns a bit - to be a really effective heel. God, if he came back now virtually the entire roster would be a heel next to him, which is why I am really skeptical that they will bring him back anytime soon (if ever). Also, i hope they make Styles a heel. I don't like face Styles half as I much smug, cocky heel Styles.

I actually think the height of the fervor over Bryan provided him a chance to get people to ACTUALLY dislike him. I imagined him sort of at the height of his popularity cheating to beat someone who was sort of surprisingly getting the best of him and could use a face push (Cesaro, maybe), slowly refusing to even acknowledge the yes and instead just smugly laughing it off, and starting to wrestle much more conservative. Then he cuts promos (in the spirit of Cactus Jack ECW's interview) about how he is tired of dancing for the audience when he can win with grappling. I can imagine Bryan putting on an awesome "boring" match, where his offense is underplayed and he really accentuate his opponent in a way that shifts the audience's loyalties. I am also a huge dragon mark, so maybe it wouldn't work, but I just thought his popularity gave him a pretty unique opportunity to be a real heel in front of that crowd.

This could be a really interesting test of how much the event sells itself. If they sort of fumble their way in to Mania, put HHH/Reigns on top, throw together an under-card we may not see the WWE try again in our lifetimes... or at least not in Vince's lifetime.

Makes sense. I was sort of under the impression that people weren't that into it or at least didn't know what to make of it. I don't really have an in person network of friends who watch the E so I was just reading a few articles and opinion responses and - much like you - unscientifically recalling comments sections and what not in passing. I am sure there are people who dug it (I kinda did - even if the match doesn't excite me personally right now). Certainly, the type of audience you described would probably be much more excited about that than Nakamura. I am just personally with jcmmnx in wanting to see a great big match on a big stage (especially if we are getting HHH vs Reigns for the belt because I am not excited). I don't necessarily think it would be best for the WWE or that they would do it, but it would just excite me much more.

Really? Completely based on sort of uncritical feeling, I kinda felt like I was in the minority in being into the segment. I am not doubting you at all, but where are you drawing that conclusion from? Just curious.

I get the argument about Nakamura, but Bray hasn't won a significant match in forever. He is putting Kane over at house shows, for crying out loud. The last really meaningful win Bray has that I remember was two years ago against Bryan. I know Bray is a known commodity, but I am not sure it really makes THAT much more sense to pair Brock with a guy who hasn't been successful in actual matches than it is to put him with someone who doesn't have a WWE record at all. I would mark out for Nakamura vs Brock; it would suck me in, but I am not saying it is a great solution at this point.

I don't know - the Wyatt vs Brock thing is both interesting and terribly not interesting to me. I am all about them building new stars and making guys matter and if they really do go the direction of Bray it COULD work, but Brock - to me - is so unique right now that those builds can't be done in same way they try to do it with other people. I mean they are more or less plugging Brock into the position they put Ambrose, Reigns, Cena, Bryan, Taker and jericho in. Bray vs "Someone" because Brays group is crazy and wants to pick on stars - or wants power - or has some weird vendetta that we can't know about. The problem is, Bray never wins feuds (except against Bryan). He is a great character and I like some of his matches, but to cycle Brock through something like this is a trap. If he wins - great, Bray loses AGAIN. If he loses - he is the ONLY person to lose to Bray in a meaningful way in forever. I actually kind of liked the unique visual of Brock getting destroyed by the Wyatts and left Raw kind of interested in the whole thing, but I wasn't all that interested in it as a possible mania match. The only way it might be an interesting story is if they build it to Bray doing what Taker couldn't do as a way of muddying the Taker over Wyatt thing from last year's Mania and reestablishing Wyatt indirectly as taking on Taker's spot again. They would need to go more crazy hillbilly and less magic with it. That said, this all feels like misdirection to me. Owens is hinting he has beef with Lesnar. Wyatt attacks Lesnar (among everyone else). It feels like maybe an excuse for everyone to eliminate Brock while actually accentuating him as a monster.

Steen's run to destroy ROH and Jim Cornette was something I really liked, but mostly kind of the first half of it, when Steen was really coming into the evil character he has been working around since then. I thought some of his promos were great and just the sort of moments he would create really stood out. Some of it was over the top and I wasn't as big a fan of it later when it moved into the SCUM stuff (though I admittedly haven't seen as much of it), but Steen vs ROH/Jimmy was pretty great and that kind of intensity and slow burn can really translate well across time I think.

I think the Summer of Punk stuff in 2005 ROH was pretty good. He won the belt, signed his WWE contract on it and threatened to take it with him. He was tapping into the same animosities and dynamics he would later with the pipebomb, but from the opposite direction. He kept winning matches smart fans thought they had pegged, too. They swerved the audience pretty well.

I would obviously love to see that. Their match for the IWGP title a while back was a lot of fun and that was before Nakamura was the charismatic little bugger we all know and love today. I can't see this happening though. I think you are spot on that bringing Nakamura in as Nakamura and immediately trying to appeal to the international audience would be a great way to POSSIBLY bump Mania, but it would just seem so out of character for Vince, especially as a way of using Brock. I am still kind of holding out a little hope for Bryan making a surprise return and facing Brock at mania in a "Shut up internet fans and leave me be" kind of gift match from Vince to us.

They could always do the double duty thing to spread the talent out. WM 10 and 30 were more or less built on it. Doing a four man tournament for the belt or something could make the most of guys like Reigns and Brock, especially if Reigns is going to do the "Reigns takes a beating" all night. HHH vs Reigns and Brock vs ????? (Owens, Bryan [ideally], Seamus, etc), with Brock vs Reigns II likely for the main. They would have my attention with something like that. I would much rather see the main come down to Bryan vs Brock, but I don't think that is in the cards. Regardless, getting Brock out there twice could really make a difference in the show, especially if he has compelling opponents both times out. Also, as has been mentioned before, HHH's being able to sell himself as drawing the biggest house in wrestling history is just terrible. We are going to have to hear about this so much.

Also, I am really glad to see Cena vs Dragon on there. I think that match got unfairly lost behind the Brock vs Punk match that night and I think Cena/Dragon was much better. Bryan is my favorite wrestler ever probably and that is maybe my favorite Bryan match, though I have Nigel/Dragon from United rated higher. I would also like to hear why you have Flair and Funk's Bash match so much higher than their Clash match. I think maybe most people do, but I always found the Clash match much more compelling and satisfying. I am a sucker for blood too. I just find think Flair and Funk really lack momentum for the entire first half of the Bash match and when I am watching really critically I get hung up on that. It would very likely make my top 100 list, but I am just more into the Clash match. I am just curious about your thinking on it.

To move back a ways, as a way of providing some reasoning for Wrestlewar, I probably have it JUST edging out the clash match as my favorite because I like how so many of the spots subtly call back to other things that happened early. I think the story of all three is one of Steamboat being a little quicker, a little more athletic, and just getting the best of Flair in the first two. Flair on the other hand is always learning and starts anticipating Steamboat's moves a bit more each time out. By the third match he gets a step ahead. For example, in wrestlewar there are a few spots where Steamer goes for something he hit and hit BIG in the first two. My favorite was the big running cross body. He hit that in both I think, (maybe just one), but it was a big flashy offensive move for Steamer that helped him get momentum and demonstrate that he had Flair's number. In Wrestlewar Flair just drops out of the way and Steamboat flies out of the ring and it is a turning point in the match. I read that as Flair's preparation, muscle memory, and study paying off in the long run, the story of what makes him a great champion paying off long term. I remember seeing Flair getting an extra counter or two to some of Steamer's better moves in the second match and then a few more in the third and it is that payoff i really liked. I also see in my notes on the matches that Flair's offense felt a little more urgent throughout, a little more ruthless, just in the way he was using his body language and the spaces between moves. I don't have a specific instance noted so I might have to look again to see exactly what I mean, but that is something that struck me on last watch. Ultimately, i have all three of them at 5 stars because I don't think you can detach them from one another. They are all 4 and 3/4 or 5 in a vacuum, but I just can't help but think about and rate them with a mind to how they worked together in the bigger story they were telling. I could go back today and watch them and might have them in different spots, depending on what I am really paying attention to or what is standing out. Last time I watched though I had Wrestlewar just a hair ahead of Clash and chi-town coming in third. As for the topic... fun list. I can see myself wanting to spend my evening starting a working list like this sometime in the near future. I just watched that Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 match over the holidays and it is hard to argue with it up top.

Nope. Mixing free stuff, 80s comps my commercial release collection, and streaming services (wwe and njpw).

I was the right age and probably even a little immature for my age when they were hitting their stride, so I liked them fine. I honestly probably liked the version with Xpac and the outlaws more, but that was mostly because everyone was getting behind the sayings and the Road Dog's intro thing. it was easy and fun fan interaction. All the iterations had moments I really didn't like and found to just be crude for crude sake or completely unreflexive. I hated the blackface thing they did in making fun of the nation, for example. It was proving the Nation's point and I am not sure they got that. Both HBK/HHH iterations also seemed weird to me because it was always two guys who were too old (even the first time around) to be doing this stuff. i got behind it for a while, but in hindsight it is unwatchable to me.

As a man who has been blessed with amazing good looks, great athletic ability, and general awesomeness, I'm tired of being judged by haters like you. It isn't my fault that women throw themselves at me. It isn't my fault even homeless people offer me money for the privilege of looking upon my face. It isn't my fault that I have adoring fans despite the fact that I don't really do anything but wake up in the morning and piss greatness. You can't justifiably hate me for it any more than you can hate Matt Sydal for it. Ahhhh.... and this is where you are mistaken, my friend. I can hate whoever I want for whatever reason I want. The wrestling world - and the world more generally - is built on arbitrary hatred. Why don't you, Sydal, and Ryan Gosling have a little summit about how great you are. I don't even want women to throw themselves at me. I don't even want to be rich and good looking. That doesn't even appeal to me; it sounds miserable. Being a good looking athletic man who is generally satisfied with life is for the birds.

Its wrestling. Everyone likes, dislikes, loves, hates, identifies or dis-identifies for random and weird reasons. I don't really hate the guy, except for in the spirit of the thread. I don't actually think "fuck Sydal" in any meaningful way; its fan bullshit. I was just never really drawn to him as a character or his work. Seeing him on a lineup doesn't get me excited about it.