club

I’ve been dipping into less celebrated WoS guys recently and Roach comes across as an excellent big man. I just finished watching a match of his against Johnny Kincaid (also awesome), and Roach’s selling of pain was amazing. Edit - also in the 88 match with Caswell Martin, his selling of being stuck in a painful submission was great. Just this pained 'no, no, no-no-no-no-no'. Really helped along the narrative of the match.

I didn't submit a ballot in 2016, but if I had Shinsuke would have been on it. Thought he was second only to Tanahashi in terms of New Japan guys during their 2010s glory years. Given that I've a) soured a fair bit on New Japan and b) not watched WWE properly in about a decade, I've no idea what to do with at the moment. What are people's thoughts on him this time round?

Ozaki is such a versatile charismatic performer. She’s at home working as a sympathetic underdog or as a psychotic brawler. When I look at my favourite Ozaki singles matches (vs Super Hell Devil Masami, Hokuto, Dynamite Kansai) there is real effective variety to her performances. She’s also the worker that consistently stands out on the big interpromotional tags of the era, stuff like the Dead Heat 4vs4, Thunder Queen and her tag with Cuty vs Double Inoues at Dream Slam. Can’t not see Oz in my list.

Johnny Kincaid Starts off (at least in terms of footage) as a versatile WoS babyface who could work technical matches and get rough when required. Found his true calling sometime in 1977 when he became an heel. His tag team with Dave Bond, The Caribbean Sunshine Boys, caused such heat that they were disbanded, and sadly leave us with but one televised match. He has some great singles performances from this era however. His heel offence is basic and his heel antics - strut, choke, devious inward smile - are nothing you haven’t seen before. It’s just that it so well executed that his matches are never not fun and are often a joy to watch. His match with Tony St Clair is a wonderful synthesis of his strengths as a performer. My main concern with nominating him is that seemingly few matches made tape. Hopefully this is not the case. Recommended matches: vs. Peter Rann - 22nd March 1972 w/Dave Bond vs. Kung Fu & Pete Roberts - 8th October 1977 vs. Tony St Clair - 18th February 1978

Been delving to the French stuff recently. Leduc is my guy and I can see him landing on my list. Like Jetlag said, he's a very effective technical babyface who takes no nonsense and can slug it out when necessary. So basically all bases covered when it comes to this stuff. He puts me in mind of someone like Marty Jones or Bret Hart. Everything he does looks so good. It has a weight behind it that keeps it believable within the style. He meshes well with a variety of guys, though I haven't seen much of most his opponents outside Leduc matches. I really look forward to seeing more of his 60s work. As well as the matches mentioned, I'd recommend: Quasimodo 59 w. Batman vs Blousons Noirs 67 Der Henker 71

I’d say for me it more comes down to enjoying one style over another. I suppose in the Thesz era the challenge was to produce something that fans could accept as legit whilst also being entertaining, whereas later on there wasn’t that constraint and so there was a wider scope for doing entertaining stuff. But having that wider scope doesn’t mean it’s always going to entertain.

I've spent some of my New Years day watching Rikidozan matches with my mother-in-law, who lived through the era. We watched Kimura, Ortega and the Thesz count-out. He's a charismatic, kind, mega-babyface. Work-wise he's basic but does exactly what he needs to do for his crowd: standing tall taking no shit from anyone, Lou Thesz be damned. Looking at what he accomplished it's hard to fault him. In terms of a project like this though, he's more interesting from an anthropological perspective than an in-ring one.

I cosign all the above. These threads have been an amazing resource.

Well that sounds mighty disappointing. The little I've seen of Jones in UWF was what piqued my interest in him in New Japan. The Super Tiger match could have been so great, and you see flashes of how well he could have meshed with the UWF guys but it appears from the footage that showcasing Jones wasn't what he was there for.

Been on a Destroyer kick the past few weeks, and - from what I’ve seen - the guy is a top 20 contender. He’s great technically, charismatic, and quite the lovable rouge. He's versatile as well. He works his shithouse antics in brilliantly in his 63 match with Rikidozan and Baba in 69. He works a very compelling straight competitive style with Mil Mascaras in 73 and 74 and Hiro Matsuda in 75. He plays off his heel antics schtick to great effect against The Spirit in 75. And he has some good brawls with Abby in 74 and 75.

Love Inoki. I love the way he moves about, he has such physical charisma and star power. The idea that he’s the greatest fighter of his generation is ridiculous. Inoki is ridiculous. But he plays it such conviction that I can go with it. A common criticism reading this thread is that he spends a long time lying about doing nothing, but I can buy into the idea that he’s thinking, strategising how to take down his opponent. It does lead to some dull matches but when it works gives matches an unpredictable sporting feel. He’s a very unique character, the likes of which we may never see again.

Volk will rank pretty highly for me I suspect. It’s a given that he’s technically very impressive, and he’s also a very underrated seller. From his facials and body language you always know how the match is going for him, even when it’s unclear from the actual action. He’s a wrestler who has a great understanding of why his stuff works with the crowd, and is a master of how to integrate it with basically anyone. The upshot is that matches aren’t always good, but his performances are. While stylistically they’re far apart, in this way he puts me in mind of someone like Jim Breaks or Jushin Liger.

Watching some 90s Bull recently and one aspect that stands out to me is her great selling. She’s one of those wrestlers who’s fine until she isn’t. She starts off as this imposing monster brushing off attacks and then by mid-match her hair is all over the place, her make-up is smudged and she has this pained, dejected look on her face, like she can’t believe she’s having to go through all this. It gives her this air of vulnerability and sympathy whilst remaining a total badass.

This thread has been a really interesting read. In terms of my own process, the first thing is to recognise is that for me at least this is an impossible task in that there’s so much footage of so many people, and not enough time. There are areas that I’ll likely not get to at all, partly due to time, partly due to the product not appealing to me. And that’s fine. I’ve come to this from the GME project, which has really rekindled my interest in wrestling after it being on the wane for a few years. The starting point is finding people whose matches I enjoy watching. There are people I’ve wanted to check out properly for 20 years and never quite found the time. There’s stuff I haven’t seen for 20 years. All of it needs watching. There’s plenty to get through, I tend to watch lots from a 2-3 wrestlers for a few weeks then move on when I get bored. Having a greatest hits or primer on wrestlers I’m less familiar with has been a realistic way to delve into the careers of a lot of these wrestlers. It doesn’t give a full picture but it is an achievable way of getting a taste of a wide range of people. From there I’ve gone down rabbit holes for the people I’ve enjoyed the most to get a fuller picture of wrestlers I really enjoy. I’m basically only really looking at when they were good. It’s interesting to see more, but for this project there’s no way I could do that with everyone I want to watch. In terms of a criteria, I know greatness when I see it. It’s a subjective thing for me and it varies from performer to performer. I expect this to lead to plenty of inconsistency, but will ultimately give me a better understanding of what I mean when I say great. A bit of a tangent but I’m also trying to better understand the performers within the context of the promotion and the wider culture. I think this is something we can take for granted in culture and promotions that we’re familiar with, and make assumptions about with ones we aren’t. For example I understand Randy Savage’s role in late 80s - early 90s WWF very clearly. I was there, I lived it and understand his character, his role in the promotion, the WWF house style and at least in part the culture at the time (I’m British). Likewise I have a reasonably good handle on the context for say 90s Sabu, 00-10s Hiroshi Tanahashi and 70s-80s Jim Breaks, and it helps me to better appreciate them. I can’t really say the same for the likes of Jackie Sato, Jerry Lawler or Negro Casas. Not yet anyway.

Punk's a guy I've always rooted for, but has mostly underwhelmed in the ring. As a face or heel, he can always talk me into getting hyped up for his matches. He's a master at building a match so it feels meaningful and important. I'm paraphrasing but I remember Mick Foley saying the key to a feud is that you need to be able to believe both guys genuinely think they're in the right, and Punk is perhaps the best in the world at this. But I mostly come away disappointed by the match itself.

Echoing a lot of what's been said already, from watching a lot of Santo recently and the way the crowds react to him, he has this aura of a folk hero come to life. His mask and it's legacy, his precision, his bleeding and brawling and honestly the fact that he always wins out in the end. It's like watching Robin Hood or Beowulf wrestle. He knows exactly what he is and how to portray that.

Just checked out his 87 match v Mister Argentina and his 88 cage match with Michel Serdan. This guy rules. Any other recommendations?

Interesting. My understanding is that Tibor was past his peak by the mid 60s. He certainly looks spry in that footage with Prince Philip. Who was the 60s match against? I thought McManus was a lot more physical in the Pallo match than in his 70s stuff where he relied more on character. Though I wonder how typical that performance was given how big a match it was.

Mick McManus and Tibor Szakacs come to mind. There's a fair bit of 70s footage but from all accounts they're past their prime. Based on the 1 match and 1 minute of prime 60s footage available, they're two I'd love to see more of. Also, Karl Gotch.

I find Jones to be a great stoic counterpoint to the likes of Finlay and Rocco. He still has character - a hard quiet man who's nobody's fool - and he seems to have a strong emotional connection with the crowds. Aside from Jim Breaks I think he's the guy who has the most really great WoS matches. In addition to the matches already mentioned in the thread, I'd recommend: vs Rocco (13/09/78) w. Myers v Skull Murphy & Finlay (not sure of the date, it's the rematch from their 83 FA Cup match) Steve Logan (10/02/79) Is there anything out there of Jones in New Japan?

Outside of his UWF matches with Fujiwara, my favourite stuff of Sayama's are the competitive squashes. Him befuddling Sid Cooper on WoS, or Jose Estrada in WWF with his crazy offence is great stuff.

It's available to buy a watermarked copy directly from ITV for 75 pounds. The process is quite lengthy and as others have mentioned and you have to sign a document promising to only use it for personal use, not to distribute it etc. Let me know if you want details.

When Hokuto dodges Ozaki, she shouts something like “Time to stop messing about”. It loses something in translation, but when she bites Ozaki, Ozaki is shouting that it hurts, Hokuto replies “I’m biting you even though your feet are dirty, you idiot”. Great match here. The premise was interesting. It seemed to be that Hokuto was trying to psyche out Ozaki by no-selling her offence, blowing her off verbally and later with the squats. Ozaki is like, you want to play that game? Fine. Post match was good. Hokuto can be really cutting in these promos. She tells the interviewer that Ozaki doesn’t have a pure heart and is more of a dangerous queen. She’s much better than Rumi Kazama. However she needs to improve her talking, and she’ll never get anywhere staying in a promotion like JWP.

Saw his 62 match with Pallo recently and it really was something. Really enjoyed McManus' performance, basically a quicker, more physically versatile version of his 70s self. I was taken by how different it was in terms of my expectations going in. Was certainly not expecting the level of aggression, McManus to break out a tombstone and Pallo to do the Buddy Rogers/Foley hanged by the ring ropes spot. I enjoyed it immensely but am lacking points of comparison stylistically having seen nothing else from WoS from the 60s, let alone McManus. No posts in this thread doesn't bode well, but it's worth asking - is there any more 60 McManus footage that is reasonably accessible?

Big fan of Ozaki so OZ vs GAEA sounds promising. The you hit me I hit you premise is interesting - the 93 Chigusa v Ozaki was similar to that in the sense that the story was was whatever Ozaki dishes out, Chigusa will dish back. GAEAISM it is.