PeteF3

Even then that match only came 76th out of 150 matches in the DVDVR All Japan balloting. A few days late, but...almost in the top half is pretty damned impressive. That's a match that I'm guessing most people initially had pegged for the Bottom 5. "Better than one might expect" is a perfectly apt description.

I still have to think that McManus is the best British wrestling candidate. From a mainstream standpoint he was arguably ahead of Nagasaki, but Nagasaki's heyday was in the '70s and '80s and McManus' was in the '60s where we don't have footage. Without getting into a debate on it one way or the other, let's say for the sake of argument that Daddy rates as a 10/10 on the Drawing Power scale. He would also rate as a 0/10 on Work--which is a factor for the Observer HOF, period. Mainstream fans may not care about working ability as such but the Observer HOF isn't meant for mainstream wrestling fans anyway. If Daddy is a 10 as a draw then McManus has to be an 8 or a 9--not so much for big gates but for notable FA Cup Day matches (maybe the closest equivalent to WrestleMania for Joint Promotions) and for being a mainstream celebrity himself. Difference is, we do have footage of a past-his-prime McManus from the early-to-mid '70s and he's clearly a charismatic, solid-at-worst worker, and this is from past his prime. It's not at all a stretch to say that '60s Prime McManus would be a 7 or so on the Work scale, too. Past that, there's been written material that I've seen that would put McManus as a plus in the behind-the-scenes/booking portion as well. I think it was when Tony St. Clair posted on the old 1stopwrestling board, about how McManus was able to turn some staid houses around after Mike Marino's run as Joint's...I don't think "booker" was the term they'd use, but the closest equivalent to such. I know, that's not a ton to go on here, but it's something to look into and there's certainly more evidence that favors McManus in that regard than Daddy. I'm not saying that we should be filling out ballots by rating everyone 1-10 and then adding the numbers up and voting for the guys who place highest. But I would much rather see a somewhat lesser draw than McManus get the HOF nod over Daddy if the work is a huge plus in the other direction. If we're going to honor Joint Promotions in the Observer HOF then I really think we need to honor the guys who represent the style. McManus wasn't a trained legit shooter like most of the other Joint workers (including Daddy himself, believe it or not) but that's really the only point of difference from an in-ring standpoint. From an old DVDVR post: "Mick Mcmanus was once one of the biggest sporting names in this country. Still practically everyone over 30 knows who he was. I was watching an old tape of Nigel Benn vs Chris Eubank (which was an absolutely huge fight over here) and the boxing commentator actually compared Eubank to wrestler Mcmanus in a totally non-pisstaking manner, which is the only time I've heard that. He's still very highly regarded by the British Public." Anecdotes =/= evidence and all that, but I'm honestly just as impressed as McManus being used as a point of comparison during a major boxing fight, as third-hand information that Thatcher and the Queen were Big Daddy fans. I can't remember the last time a football announcer talked about Cortland Finnegan's reputation as the NFL's dirtiest player and made a straight, deadpan comparison to Ric Flair.

I seriously want to know about L'Ange Blanc's credentials for the Observer HOF (insofar as I want L'Ange Blanc info as opposed to pimping him for the HOF outright). From what little I understand he had near-Big Daddy levels of fame in France at his peak but was also an elite worker. To the extent that you can judge a guy's workrate by still photos, which AFAIK is all we have, he's clearly miles ahead of Daddy, with lots of tricked out European submissions.

Personally no, but other people--many of which overlap with a wrestling-fan audience--yes, big time. In some ways I can see Dave's point. Around the same time of Shawn's flag-humping came the episode of Seinfeld where the Puerto Rican flag was burned--by accident, not intentionally. That was enough to get that episode stricken from the airwaves by NBC and (I believe) in the syndication package. On the other hand, The Simpsons had a scene with the Union Jack accidentally being set on fire and then buried in compost to put the fire out. Maybe no one cared because it was only an animated flag.

Glass Joe = glass jaw.

At the first Bash house show of '92, JYD headbutted him, shattered the glasses, and helped him get to the hospital to save his eye. Hughes turned face, became The Big Cat again, and teamed with JYD out of mutual respect. And this was all part of a Watts move both on-camera and behind the scenes: wrestlers all had to wear regulation-style gear as opposed to wrestling in street clothes (though I suppose you then have to question why Cactus Jack got to keep his shirt).

Is Perfect being booked to win the Rumble actually true or is that Scott Keith horseshit again? I mean, they already seemed committed to a Perfect/Beefcake feud (and that's beforehand--no other reason to book Beefcake vs. Genius otherwise), so why work a Rumble victory into that? I do sometimes wonder if they might not have been better off switching Hogan and Warrior's roles after the big face-off (where it's Warrior who accidentally-or-does-he eliminates Hogan instead of vice versa). The live crowd have seen at as a Warrior heel turn which wasn't what they wanted to get across, but give him a long enough fight and comeback with Rude and Perfect and I think that would have been forgotten/forgiven by the end of the match.

I never made the connection, but Russo's increased influence in '99 coincides almost exactly with Vince being taken off television. Whether it was the IPO or not something was clearly taking up a lot of McMahon's time.

As far as I know he was a pretty big star in the 50's who basically used ballerina moves in the ring to frustrate his brawny opponents. I think he was mostly a babyface though, which is funny when one thinks of the stereotypical 50s homophobic crowd, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Edit: Not a ton of info on Starr out there (not even a wiki page apparently), but this blog looks to offer some good info on him: http://rickystarr.blogspot.ca/ Starr was a huge attraction across the country at the time, and yeah, I don't think he was a heel, ever. Like Street he was also a legit tough guy and trained shooter. In the history of territorial wrestling was there ever an unlikelier development than Adrian Street getting pushed as the #1 babyface in the mid '80s in Alabama?

I think I can remember some interview of the Quebecers on the platform by Raymond. There was definitely one before their match with the Harts. Jacques pointed out, "Brothers don't always get along!" while shooting a knowing look at Ray.

The WWF non-change that confuses me the most was Mr. Hughes. Talk about a guy who could have actually used a gimmick makeover but didn't get one. Not only was he a true "WCW creation," not only was his attire not that appropriate considering there was no York Foundation to provide security for, but I don't think any wrestling roster in history has had a need for TWO "wrestle in suspenders and a necktie" guys at once.

So I'm currently engaged in a borderline-ridiculous debate with Richard Sullivan on WC and I need a question answered...did Johnny Ace have any actual booking power in All-Japan at all? Did he have any before the promotion started decaying around 1996 (also coincidentally when he first started winning the major tag titles)? I know about his supposed affair with Mrs. Baba, but the claim put forth is that Ace was actually laying out six-man tag finishing sequences, even in ones that he wasn't being involved in. The claim is so risible on the surface that I feel it's barely worth discussing, but I wouldn't mind some hard facts at my disposal which I don't actually have.

God, I can't believe I remember this...but Lawler was selling that he supposedly got black eyes from Piper at King of the Ring.

FWIW Krushchev was supposed to be a "Russian sympathizer," not a Russian proper. When he started with the gimmick in Mid-South he was first called Krusher Darsow.

Warrior's biggest personal failing as a top guy was a complete inability to come across as human. Hogan was capable of it and so was just about every other top babyface in company history. Warrior came across as cool with his running rope-shaking act and sometimes his promos could be bizarrely compelling in their own way, but at some point you have to be able to hang out with kids and do the talk show/media circuit, and Warrior was the same there as he was on television. I suspect that would have been his downfall as WWF Champion, even if he had been booked better with stronger opponents.

Gene died in 1991 and CW's debut (under a mask, with no training) was in '93. I don't see Troy Graham as really being post-modern. He had the name and the Dusty-ish manner of speaking, but he was almost always doing it as a heel without any of the "son of a plumbah" working man stuff either.

PWF Heavyweight Title changes: - Giant Baba vs. Tor Kamata (6/1/78) - Tor Kamata vs. Billy Robinson (6/12/78) - Billy Robinson vs. Abdullah the Butcher (10/18/78) - Abdullah the Butcher vs. Giant Baba (2/10/79) - Chicago, shown on AJPW Classics The first two really just need the ending clips plus the Kamata/Robinson confrontation after Kamata's fluke title win. Robinson vs. Abby is fun with Robinson pulling Abby into an actual wrestling match. There's also an earlier Robinson/Abdullah match from '76 that's Abby pulling Robinson into a brawl. NWF Heavyweight title changes in New Japan: - Johnny Powers vs. Antonio Inoki (12/10/73) - Antonio Inoki vs. Tiger Jeet Singh (3/13/75). Inoki forfeited the title out of refusal to defend against Singh, thus we got Inoki vs. Singh for the vacant title...yeah. - Tiger Jeet Singh vs. Antonio Inoki (6/26/75) I know it's Singh but God knows this feud has to be represented somehow.

And the Texas Death Match with Duncum is for the secretly-vacant WWWF title, with the WWWF acknowledging but not really acknowledging beforehand. It's a must. Bobby Duncum vs. Victor Rivera from the 4/14/75 MSG show is something that I swear jumped out to me as a real sleeper match. Damning with faint praise as it may be but it's a very rare good WWWF match that doesn't involve Backlund. Worth a look just to see if I'm crazy or misremembering. It's been a long time since I went through the Mid-Atlantic films and I didn't keep notes or anything, and another issue is that there doesn't seem to be dates for any of this stuff. All I can think of is cross-referencing the match listings with other results databases like the Mid-Atlantic Gateway or clawmaster's listings. Anyway, stuff that probably should go in that I remember: - Ole & Gene Anderson vs. Ric Flair & Greg Valentine (Cage Match). The Andersons need to be on a Yearbook in some form. - There are a number of different Ken Patera vs. Tony Atlas matches, all in a row. One of which has the best-executed "pull the tights" finish I've ever seen. - Johnny Valentine vs. Wahoo McDaniel. Actually I found this disappointing, but it still needs to be there. - Ric Flair vs. Bobo Brazil. This is the majority of the match (with the finish clipped out--arrgh) and it's Bobo winning the U.S. title. A definite early broomstick performance by Flair, but...it's Flair vs. a pretty historic figure from another time period, and it's useful to see some footage of Bobo even if it's past his prime. The guy who really came off in these clips as the Lost Worker of the '70s, to me, was Blackjack Mulligan. Very Big Boss Man-like once he turned babyface in his ability to sell and project sympathy despite usually being much bigger than his opponent. As a heel he did some advanced stuff like kneedrops off the top that the immobile '80s Mulligan could never do. Also, Cowboy Bill Watts vs. Mr. Wrestling for the Georgia Heavyweight title, from 1973. One of the closest things to a complete Watts match from near his prime (there's also a fairly decent-lengthed IWE match with Kobayashi but this is better, I think). IWE that stood out as good/memorable stuff: - Strong Kobayashi vs. Monster Rousimoff (5/6/72) - Strong Kobayashi vs. Rusher Kimura (7/9/72) - IWE title defense for Strong. I really thought this was pretty good and native vs. native in 1972, outside of a round-robin setting, was very rare. I know Kobayashi was mostly horrible but the IWE Strong seemed to be a lot more motivated. - Rusher Kimura vs. Blackjack Mulligan (10/10/73) - Strong Kobayashi/The Great Kusatsu vs. The Hollywood Blonds (1/26/74) - The original Blonds, like the Andersons, have to be on a '70s Yearbook somewhere. I haven't seen much in the way of Florida films so maybe there's something there that would trump this. - Ashura Hara vs. Mile Zrno (WWU Jr. Heavyweight title, 5/6/79) - Mighty Inoue vs. Geoff Portz (5/26/75) - Severe clippage but Portz looks incredible. Probably the True Lost Worker of the '70s. - Mighty Inoue vs. Andre the Giant (7/17/79) - Ashura Hara vs. The Dynamite Kid (7/21/79) New Japan: - Antonio Inoki vs. Johnny Powers (3/13/77) - I think there are 3 of these bouts and I may not have the right date, but it's the match with Lou Thesz as guest referee. - Antonio Inoki vs. Roland Bock (12/29/78) - from Germany - Antonio Inoki vs. Bob Roop (1/12/79) - Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Jack Brisco (4/27/79) - Tatsumi Fujinami vs. El Solitario (5/10/79)

Somehow I vividly remember this. Rude had been refusing to grant Sting any shots at the International World title, so before a Rude squash a girl comes up to him asking for his autograph, which he signs. Afterward Sting shows up and reveals the chick's autograph sheet had a carbon copy underneath that was a title match contract. Why Sting would have or need two women here escapes me. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lionel Hutz or Hamilton Berger could get that type of contract signing thrown out in court. But this is wrestling, so the title match is on.

Going through Graham's site: 4/18/94 Raw vs. Kwang (non-title) 7/11/94 Raw vs. 1-2-3 Kid 7/30/94 Superstars vs. Bob Backlund 10/23/94 Action Zone vs. Owen 11/7 Raw, Bret/Davey Boy vs. Owen/Neidhart Somewhere indeterminately between the Hogan/Backlund/Bruno model of TV appearances and the Austin/Rock/Cena model.

I don't know the specific answer here but you beat me to a point I wanted to make about how much better AJPW seemed to be about when Heel in Peril was worked. The standout example for me would be Hansen & DiBiase (and yes, they were tag champs) defending against Yatsu & Nakano, a sleeper bout from the '80s set. The foreigners are on the defensive almost the entire match, with DiBiase working a bum knee while Hansen is played up as this lurking, devastating tornado on the apron...until he gets tagged in and promptly hurts HIS knee, and suddenly the underdog natives look to have a real chance. The whole thing seemed like the two natives just barely hanging on by doing all the right things, strategy-wise, rather than an excuse to bitch out the heels as seemed to happen so often in WWF tags. It was the wrestling equivalent to Bill Parcells' Giants beating the offensive juggernaut Bills by playing conservative, run-it-up-the-gut football and keeping that offense off the field (until they ran into a Hansen Lariat, but the thought was there). My first instinct is to say yes, it is more effective with heel champs, but I don't know if the babyfaces being bigger has anything to do with it. I would say just the opposite--that "cutting the ring in half" is a more effective storyline when it's the heels who have the size advantage. To use a shitty example, any team challenging the Colossal Connection would obviously want to keep Haku in the ring as much as possible. That's smart strategy from a kaybae standpoint and in a real-life standpoint it keeps Andre (or Warlord, or some other shitty partner you care to use) from seeing any meaningful action.

And Stan Hansen wouldn't have? In real life, beating the shit out of someone with a cowbell and chairs after the bell would probably result in a multiple-month suspension, not to mention an arrest. '90s All-Japan didn't have any less carny bullshit than JCP, they were just better at hiding it.