goodhelmet

Booker T - In 1998, he was one of my favorite performers because I thought this was a guy who was going to be genuinely be elevated. Plus, at the time, I already loved Benoit but thought Booker was putting on some great matches at the time w/ or w/o Benoit. Then he becomes world champ after I ceased to care about him or the WCW product. I had high hopes when he came to the Fed but I should have learned my lesson. I am thinking of different black wrestlers and CJ may be correct... Booker T could be the best black wrestler we have ever seen. Bobby Heenan - Genius... pure genius. Curt "Mr. Perfect" Hennig - Never cared for him. Terry Funk - Everyone here must find a copy of Funk vs. Jumbo from 6/11/76. THAT is Terry Funk the wrestler. I don't know if i have ever seen a better Terry Funk match. The Flair series doesn't even come close. Lex Luger- I remember the old PWI magazine had Luger as their Rookie of the Year out of Florida. This was before he premiered for Crockett on TBS. Loss and I were talking about Luger's World title victory over Hulk Hogan and how ballistic the crowd was when he won the belt. Dusty Rhodes - Dusty Rhodes is the reason I gave up on NWA wrestling back in the 80s. I didn't know he was the reason since I had never heard of a Dusty finish or had any clue about Dusty the booker. I just knew he killed my interest in their product before it got really hot in '89 and I can't forgive him for that. Rick Martel - Never cared for him. The Great Muta/Keiji Muto - I used to confuse him with Kubuki when I was a kid. Now, I resent the bastard for making All Japan a big joke. It was already on a downward spiral without him but wih him it is near unwatchable. retire already... fuck. Sean Waltman (1-2-3 Kid/Syxx/X-Pac) - I hadn't watched wrestling in years and I flip on RAW or Monday nIght whatever it was and this little skinny guy beat Razor Ramon. I didn't know who he was either but the memory remains. Ric Flair - I find it hard to watch Ric Flair right now. I was never a mark as a kid. Don't really care for most of his matches. Bret Hart was dead-on as it pertains to the matches they had together. Watch the Boston Iron-Man to see who was screwing up in that one. On the other hand, I still enjoy the Steamboat series and Jumbo series. I will also say that his promo on the last night of Nitro sent shivers up my spine and very few wrestling moments have ever done that.

Hey Loss... do you have this match??? I get the VHS to DVD capability this weekend!!!!

Well, since Loss is creating these threads, he'll steal alot of thunder from my posts so I'll just make a few brief comments. Bob Backlund - I have only recetly started watching older Backlund matches so I'll have to reserve any judgmental words until I have seen more of his stuff. Kenta Kobashi - My favorite Kobashi moment... Kawada and Taue destroying his leg during the 6/9/95 match and Kobashi's selling actually enhancing the match instead of hindering it. I've always liked Kawada better but I have no problem with Kobashi love being spread around. I am going to be ordering some 2004 NOAH soon because I wanna see if this broken-down past-his-prime superstar was really deserving of Wrestler of the Year consideration or if people who loved 90s All Japan were grasping at straws, hoping to recapture any past glory for their favorites. Owen Hart - Desperately trying to acquire as much of his early footage as possible. The Rock - I was sold on this guy after the 1998 WM interviews. He was cocky and funny as hell. Have no problem watching his matches and I think his WCW title match against Jericho is the best match either man has ever had. Rey Misterio Jr - The one supersar from the past ten years who has given me some honest-to-God "Holy Shit" moments without any gimmicks involved. Also, currently looking to acquire as much of Rey in Mexico as possible. Paul Heyman - Loved his interview denouncing McMahon. Loved his announcing alongside Jim ross sine it appeared to be the first time in years that JR was fired-up about the actual product. You had to love the way Paul E. got under JRs skin. Work... shoot.. who cares? Harley Race - One of my favorites as a kid before he became King Harley. I have fallen in love with most of the matches from Japan that I have seen. Indeed, the best matches I have seen from Baba were wth Race. Then again, I haven't seen alot of older Baba footage with the Destroyer and others. Konnan - You know, Loss and I had a conversation about WCW the other day and Konnan came up. Back in 1998, I thought WCW really dropped the ball with Konnan since he was arguably the most over guy on the roster. Then again, I had no idea about the backstage BS or any other politcs. My favorite Konnan moment: Trying some type of pendulum move on Juvi and dropping him on his neck and face. Eddy Guerrero - One of my favorite modern-day wrestlers and one of the only guys on the WWE roster I would pay money to see. another guy who I hope to grab as much footage from as possible. Barry Windham - No comment.

Dave Meltzer was on BetweentheRopes awhile back and he said he saw no one who could be able to carry the ball for the WWF in the future. Not one wrestler stood out in his eyes as having "it". I usually don't like to trust Meltz's judgment when it comes to match ratings.. but for observations, I'll take his word. The future looks bleak. Really... do you think the average Joe Shmoe would buy a ticket to see Cena perform? Or is he just a side attraction? I think they really missed their chance to build up a huge following for Eddy last year. Jericho has been misused and abused so he is dead in the water. Honestly, I don't see the WWF taking a chance with a guy who has charisma (at least before HHH cuts his knees out from under him) or changing their current method of business recruiting a bunch of stiffs.

Randy Orton - I don't watch enough of the current product to really know much about Orton's current in-ring ability. What I have seen since his debut has been nothing special. He is a good-looking kid who has spotty ring ability and a lack of charisma. I simply see nothing about him that would scream superstar or main eventer. He was background scenery in the WM match last year. His hardcore match w/ Foley was entertaining for me but only because I love Foley so much. You could have put any other young gun in there who would be willing to get slammed into thumbtacks and the result would be the same. Tazz - When I read about Taz, I thought this guy was supposed to be some kind of real-life shooter or billy badass. When I finally saw a Taz match, he was all of 5'2. After seeing him, I thought he surely must be a great wrestler if he gets so much hype. Then I saw him wrestle and didn't take him seriously after that. Shortly after he debuted, it became apparent he would be mid-card fodder after seeing him matched up against HHH. He never did anything in the ring that made me invest any emotion into him. Chris Jericho - Greatest Jericho moment: Introducing the cruiserweight battle royal. Shane McMahon - And to think... some people actually hope this guy would control the company someday. Steph-Shane-all the same shit. Antonio Inoki - Inoki is a strange cat. Some of the worst wrestling moments I have ever seen are because of Inoki. Then there are some great matches from the 70s and 80s and the aforementioned Vader match. His hard-on for mixing shoot fighting with wrestling has hindered the New Japan product. Personally, watching Inoki is similar to watching Baba for me. I always seem engaged in the spectacle of watching him fight, even the worst matches. Vader - *see Loss4Words comment above* The Road Warriors - A part of me wanted them to succeed in the final run as LOD 2000. I guess I wasn't ready to give up on my youth when I makred for them like no other team. Tito Santana - The only wrestling t-shirt I ever owned as a kid. I loved watching Tito. By the time he became the Matador, I had already stopped watching. Jim Cornette - Go to the ROH website and by Secrets of the Ring w/ Jim Cornette NOW! Then pickup the shoot interview with Cornette and Bobby Heenan. Then find a bootlegger to grab the Cornette shoot done with RFVideo. Then see who has a copy of the SMW BAR-B-Q. Then watch and learn.

In Fat Elvis's defense, he had some great fucking songs during that time period.

I jut wanted to clarify one thing... I currently do not think WWF from the 80s is better than the NWA product from the late 80s-early 90s. I am simply stating that as a kid, I enjoyed the WWF product more. Nowadays, I can barely sit through most WWF past programming but thanks to tape trading, I can fast forward through all of the shit and still get what I need out of any era of wrestling.

I haven't seen the Pulp Fiction one yet but the only one that made me laugh out loud was when Eugene punched out the lady sitting on the bench. I was not expecting that at all.

I think there is one way this could work out for Batista in the ring. Make him brawl and bleed buckets the way Bradshaw is doing on SD!. Look, Bradshaw may be ass in the ring and an un-over champion but he has been able to survive in the main events by participating in brawls and bleeding alot. If they did this with Batista, who is over, and hide his lack of wrestling ability then people may pay to see him go at it.

This is a matter of opinion. Those just happen to be the parts of the experience that you might have savored. If you look at the Dave Meltzer thread, there were different reasons why people turned away from the product. For some, it was the storylines, for others it was the lack of long matches. For me, it was the lack of quality matches. In Japanese matches, particularly from early 90s All Japan, it gave me what I was looking for... quality matches. It also gave me a new perspective on wrestling and shifted my paradigms of what wrestling should and can be. I wouldn't trade that for all of the Nitro parties in the world.

Loss... This may be the big difference between you and me. I never cared for Ric Flair and certainly never followed him. He sold me with his interviews and I always wanted him to lose regardless of his opponent but he wasn't mine. I also had an undying hate for Tully Blanchard that made it very hard for me to enjoy his matches... even if they were technically good. Sure, I remember when Luger won also. And in typical NWA fashion, the face lost the belt just a couple of weeks (or one week?) later. Not that I wanted Luger to be the face of the promotion or anything. Also, this was one of the things that handicapped my enjoyment of that NWA period. How many times did you invest emotion into someone and get screwed over? I don't blame you for this but to be honest, I didn't follow WWF for Hogan. I was more into the tag Titles (think about the tag teams... Bulldogs, Harts, Dream Team, USA) and the IC belt. I went to three WWF house shows in the 80s and not one featured Hogan. I probably read the exact same magazines. Are you talking about the Apter mags... PWI, Wrestling Insider? Those magazines also featured positive stories on the WWF and their tag teams, Steamboat, Savage, Muraco, etc. Or maybe the magazines you read were long after I quit watching wrestling. I don't know. I was the same way to a degree. Once again, the NWA booking really hampered my ability to go that far since I knew I was usually let down in the end. It was easier for me to invest emotion in WWF matches or WCCW matches because I knew there would be a payoff. I could then geek out and write up my predictions and predict the finishes and match times and check my winning percentage after the show and whatnot. I mean, fuck, in 1986, I was 11-12 years old but WCW never failed to let me down for three-four years straight. I probably dedicated as much time and emotion into that company before I finally gave up on it long before I gave up on wrestling as a whole. CJ... I think an era can be yours and you can enjoy it even if you never lived through it or experienced it firsthand. My favorite historical era is the Vietnam War era. I also love teaching the 1920's and thr Jazz Age. I didn't experience either of these firsthand but through studying and researching, I have learned so much about these times that they have become my favorites. The same applies to wrestling. Through research and obtaining a large collection of matches, I am able to appreciate Japanese wrestling from the early 90s. In this way, I also put it in the proper context. I have my THEN and NOW sections in my initial post. Looking back, I know that I enjoyed 80s WWF more than 80s NWA during its time. Now, being a little older and wiser, I would probably enjoy NWA more because of the work involved. It is with this reasoning that I also have to call early 90s All Japan my favorite time period from wrestling. My interest in wrestling has gone through peaks and valleys. The NWO angle brought me back into the fold after a seven year hiatus. Tape collecting and puro kept my interest in wrestling when the American product had tried to kill my interest. Just because I didn't see Hansen and Kobashi in 1993 doesn't mean it has no personal or sentimental value to me now. I experienced that match and hundreds of others at a different time in my life and they are no less important just because I found them from a "seedy tape dealer".

I can agree with that to a certain point... but I don't see how the nonsensical bookings and Dusty finishes of that late 80's NWA product didn't make you completely despise the show or at least turn it off. Also, that is why I broke my post into two parts... THEN and NOW. Now, after experiencing much more than even I thought possible, I have a new appreciation for old NWA and even more for AJPW. Because of all of the good-great matches, AJPW is easily my favorite based on work alone. Back then, growing up, I thought the old WWF shows smoked the NWA programs in terms of payoff and presentation. And I bought the books, the magazines, soaked up Ted DiBiase's blood from the old Freeman Coliseum, bought the PPVs, went to the house shows when they came into town, and all the other things wrestling fans do. But after all of that, my memories aren't the reason I still watch. I still watch because of what my new perspective allows me to appreciate... the actual work. AfterI swore off wrestling in 1989, I didn't watch wrestling again until the NWO angle picked up and made me interested enough to start anew as a wrestling fan. Now, looking back, I am too bitter to appreciate that era even though it set the foundation for my fandom today. Too many mistakes and bad memories of woulda, coulda, shouldas.

That Was Then... Since I am older than most of you, my take on wrestling is a little different when looking back at the early years. I used to be a huge wrestling fan from 1982 until 1988. I watched all of the huge WWF angles in the emerging years of rock n' wrestling. I tuned in every Saturday Night to TBS. I caught UWF (the former Mid South) every Saturday morning before it went belly-up. I was watching WCCW at its peak.. even if I had to stay up past midnight. I have to disagree with the notion that 1986+ NWA was pure gold. I loved it and was devoted to it up until a certain point where the Dusty booking killed my interest in the product. It wasn't only the Dusty finishes but the short title reigns for faces, the endless amount of jobber matches, the continued employment of Tully Blanchard, the fact that from 1985 until the first Clash (where I was too busy watching WM IV), there were no feautured main events that I can recall unless it was a recap of a house show. By the time the Clash of Champions became a regular feature, they had already lost me as a fan. From 1984-1989 I thought the WWF product was a much more interesting time period. I saw more main event matches. The storylines always seemed to pay off. The wrestling may have been subpar to the NWA product but I was too ignorant to know what made a good match. I just knew that when I saw Steamboat-Savage, it was the most amazing match I had seen up to that point. And before that, I remember going crazy when the Bulldogs won the tag belts at Wrestlemania 2 (my first PPV experience... although I think it was closed-circuit tv) . I remember throwing my shoe when HonkyTonk Man beat my favorite wrestler for the IC belt. Then going nuts when Warrior squashed him like a grape. While the nonsensical booking of the NWA and the cartoonish characters of the Fed turned me off from wrestling for a good 7 years, I always had a fondness for that time priod. This Is Now! Now, I have a new appreciation for late 80s NWA because I can ignore the stupid booking decisions and focus on alot of the ringwork. I never liked Barry Windham as a kid but can appreciate his work now. I also tuned out the NWA before my favorite wrestler realized his dream of becoming World Champ. Now, I can watch that markout moment and still be happy for the Dragon. Even then, I still don't consider this time period my favorite. Thanks to tape trading and the large amounts of wrestling that I have been exposed to, I don't see how anyone who has seen early and mid-90s All Japan can even think of a better time period for a wrestling company. The large volume of high quality matches speaks for itself. From the Jumbo-Misawa matches of 1990 to the Best television year any company has ever produced (1993) to the best singles match ever (6-3-94 Kawada-Misawa) to the best tag matches ever (6/95 and 12/96). All Japan set the standard so high for quality matchexs that matches I thought were great before are now merely adequate.

Then again, would the Rock even need a necrophilia angle? Most of the Rock's feuds were contingent on his mic work. Rock talks trash. Someone answers. Rock talks his opponent down. Feud. Now... compare that with HHH and allof the stupid angles he has been a part of in a futile attempt to make him interesting.

I see where Loss is coming from but I don't know if his plan is the answer. You can have territories all over the country but it just means you produce twelve Heidenreichs or Snitskys instead of just a couple. I think the real shift should be in the staff that evaluates talent The real change needs to be a major shift in paradigms. The mindset should be to get away from bodybuilders to unique characters who can captivate the audience at home and in the arenas. Look at the guys who really transcend the sport... Austin, Rock, Hogan, even Flair and Foley. None of them look like HHH or are built like Batista. Yet they could sell you on a match in their interviews and grab unbelievable heat in the ring (even if they had horrible matches). THAT is what the fed needs to focus on... not the workrate marks or the steroid freaks. They need someone who can put asses in the seats. Someone who is just a little off center or has unique qualities no one else possesses. More importantly, someone who can connect with the fans on some personal level. Right now, there are no wrestlers the fans can empathize with like Austin or Foley. There are no guys that fans would really want to emulate... like Flair or The Rock. No one on the roster is so unique that he could carry the weight of the Fed on his shoulders... like Hogan. We bitch about the storylines and the writing staff and the angles but all of that is secondary to the personalities. As Crash TV and even the NWO angle proved... even when the writing sucks... you can still draw based on the personalities or the matchups. Meltzer was aaked on Between the Ropes recently if he felt wrestling was in trouble and he said he was concerned because there is really nothing new wrestling can bring to the table in the ring... unless they evolve into shoot fighting... and he saw no new stars on the horizon that could help the business get out of its current funk. I disagree with him since most of the guys who have changed the sport were accidents. You never know who can really affect wrestling's future but I do know it doesn't look like a HHH or Batista.

I think we should mention that without three characters... Stone Cold, The Rock, and Mick Foley (hell, you can leave off Mick if you want to).... it would not have mattered what Russo did. These three had the charisma and the mic skills to carry the storylines regardless of how ridiculous or convoluted they may have been. Russo's impact relied on these guys to get it over. Without them, none of us would even know Russo's name. He would have been insignificant.

I think you are confusing Russo with Bischoff here. Actually, I think WCW with the NWO at its height was a worse offender of using ther PPV as a shill than the WWF. How many times did a WCW PPV end with "Tune into NItro to find out or leave a PPV with a cliffhanger"? I think the WWF took their cue from WCW in this regard.

Wow. I didn't know Sting ever acknowledged the idiotic state of things in WCW esp. as it pertains to Starrcade 97. Very interesting.

i don't like your use of the word here. Psychology isn't overrated. What you described here is BAD psychology.

Sunofugun man. That was an interesting read. I completely overlooked the Blade Runners mention since I was about to chastise you for its omission. Speaking of the Blade Runners, that is my first recollection of Sting in any form. I really don't have anything to add about his in ring accomplishments because I never really cared for him in the ring. The sole exception would be the Vader series but i always gave credit to Vader for those memories.