elliott

Real fun little back and forth tv match. Nothing earth shattering by any means but perfectly fine match from 2 guys I’ve never seen before. Dick Steinborn is way cool working holds in a slightly unconventional yet conventional way. I can’t really explain it but I’d like to see more. Gran Apollo hits an awesome dropkick on Steinborn and they both really nail each other when exchanging blows. Not memorable by any stretch but a perfectly enjoyable 8 minutes.

Excellent match that is a cool companion to the earlier Flair match as it’s another match with a wrestler most of us are already familiar with. It has a lot more schtick and brawling all over the place than in the Flair match. This isn’t as hard hitting but that Flair match was something else. Tully is at his sneaky over the top best stumbling and wobbling all over the place. An excellent Tully match and another terrific performance from this Colon guy we were always told sucked.

Holy fucking shit what a fun match. This is a 10 minute straight up sprint with 4 big dudes stiffing the shit out of each other. Pierre gets bloodied and taken out so Gino has to go it alone leading to the inevitable big comeback with Pierre coming back. That thread about your favorite ***1/2 matches “aka very good but not great or MOTYC” this is a perfect example of that type of match. It isn't quite ***1/2 stars but is a really fun match. I want to see more of all of these guys.

This continues the traditon of fucking awesome Flair matches on 80s sets. Terrific match with Flair looking incredible and Colon looking every bit on his level. Colon controls the early portion of the match by working over Flair’s arm and its awesome. It is super basic stuff with a lot of punches and stomps mixed in but when Colon is firing these full on punches at Flair’s arm it is every bit as cool as the slickest arm centered work out there. This is really great when it turns into a slugfest as Colon as Choshu level fire on his offensive attacks and Flair always matches his opponents intensity on strike exchanges and Colon goes crazy. The crowd is bat shit insane popping for this hoping Colon is going to win. I’d love to see more Colon vs Flair matches because this really was terrific. Another great example of Ric “playing the bitch” at times but looking like The Man and Wrestling like The Man. The deuling figure 4’s spot is out of control great with both guys putting the other over like a million bucks and the crowd going wild. This is often a criticism of Flair matches; the other guy being better at the figure 4 than Ric. But Colon used it as his finisher too so it works here. Ric brings a ton of offense in this. Lots of suplexes, a not awful piledriver, the chops you love, lots of stiff shots etc. This is your classic world title match that starts clean and ends with both guys just trying to kill each other. This isn’t just a great Carlos Colon match, it’s a great Ric Flair match.

Ric (or RICK, which I always love) Flair on 80s Sets tradition continues. Short and a pretty non-descript match. Flair hits a really sweet side back breaker. Ric’s begging off spot is fun and the punches leading up to it are awesome with Ric selling them great. This is actually a pretty decent example of a match where Ric has spots “playing the bitch” while still looking like a World Champ and even winning with the figure 4 (sorry I recently re-read the Bret vs Flair thread and couldn’t resist that last line). Pretty forgettable match overall though.

Stream of consciousness from the opening moments of the PR Set. “Puerto Rico Puerto Rico Puerto Rico! Oh this is gonna be great. I’m so excited. I’ve been waiting so long for this set. Fuck yeah! There’s Abdullah apparently getting a head massage at a Saudi Arabian Spa. Oh cool English commentary I wasn’t expecting English commen OHHHHHHHH NNOOOOOOOOO! FUCK HOLY FUCK FUCK!” This whole goddamn thing starts off with an extreme close-up of Abdullah the Butcher’s disgusting forehead getting stitched up. Seriously. I like blood in wrestling but FUCK this was on a different level. I might have seen brain for a second. So I guess we’re off and running folks. Colon shows no fear and goes right at Abby punching him in the ear and ripping at it. Carlos has a nice overhand right and looks like he’s blasting Abby right in the ear. Abby does a good job putting over the opening beat down. It’s just punching, biting and tearing at the ear repeatedly. Naturally the spills to the outside and Colon plays “king of the mountain for a while.” Abby is being thoroughly dominated early on. Colon has really awesome facial expressions in this. Abby takes over with a short quick kick and a throat chop and immediately starts headbutting and beating the shit out of Colon including low blowing him just for the hell of it. Abby seemed to go on offense as soon as he saw blood which is a cool transition because it puts over the idea of Abby as a “Wild Animal” and racist shit like that. He sees his own blood and he snaps. Its like Abdullah’s Hulk Up or Dropping the Strap is blading himself which, seriously. What is cooler than that? Abby is awesome on offense with kicks chops and headbutts. Colon makes a comeback using a mule kick low blow, which I know is a signature spot and is awesome because Abby already hit him in the balls and this is payback. This spills to the outside and they take turns posting the shit out of each other and now both guys are bloody as fuck. Instead of doing crazy spots this finished with both guys covered in blood taking turns blasting the shit out of each other until Abby destroyed Colon with elbow drops leading to a ref stoppage from blood. Post match is intense fun that you should just watch.

Every teaser promo on CNN for the debate is SO pro wrestling. TRUMP VERSUS HILLARY! LIVE! THE DEBATE! These are scary times.

UWFi drops that bum Koji Kitao and picks up the fantastically underrated Victor Zangiev.

Dave's WON Coverage of Today's UWFi Show

I would consider jdw a friend and would for the last 15+ years. I think the shit parv is allowed to get away with is ridiculous and he drags this entire board down. Say what you will about john, this place is worse because of Parv and shit like that. I mean what the fuck?

That Foley comp is right on the money.

This is exactly the sort of thing I wanted to talk about honestly and what my initial questions were really about. I think these ideas are connected and intertwined. It was a special group of wrestlers who were motivated and loved what they did and were unique both from what was going on at the time and in many ways from each other and filled a much needed void to a segment of the wrestling fan base. Absolutely. But there was also always independent wrestling. Even when WCW and WWF were both national companies there was successful independent wrestling. However. Because wrestling was so popular worldwide in the mid 90s and two national companies to fill out roster spots, the indies were depleted and while you couldn't have a Ring of Honor in the mid 90s, there was always talented independent wrestlers developing somewhere. Sabu, Al Snow, Waltman, Jerry Lynn which eventually led to Reckless Youth & the Omega crew and Michael Modest & Chris Daniels before finally the Boom Generation (sidenote, I dunno whether or not to include Daniels with the Ki/Danielson/Joe boom generation because he seemed a little older or more established than them but he is as important an early figure in the early part of the "indy boom" as anyone). Wrestling was more popular in 2001 than in 1995 but there were far fewer places to work. Which leads me to my next point.. , I think the indy boom is also connected to the popularity of the attitude era due to the amount of time between the attitude era/death of wcw (monopolization of wrestling)/time of the indy boom in a way that isn't all that different from the relationship between the Mid 80s Crush Gals era of Joshi Wrestling and the 90s Boom Period of Joshi. These guys were in their formative years during wrestling's most popular time period ever and were at the age were they were just young and dumb enough to say "I wanna be a pro wrestler" and just old enough to go out and do it and get completely hooked on being a wrestler and wanting to be the best wrestlers. Which leads me back to quality of talent. It wouldn't have been as big as it was if not for the quality of talent. So like always, everything matters. Everything. Which is awesome. I know it was Low-Ki that got me hooked on independent wrestling. Bryan was great and a better wrestler but I always liked Low-Ki more because he was so unique. I think Danielson was generally though of as the best worker but Low-Ki seemed to have the most buzz in the early days with stuff like the Eddy Match, Red Match, Xavier Ladder Match, Homicide matches, and oh yeah all of those Bryan matches. I do think Christopher Daniels is an underrated figure in this group as I said above but I dont want to go to bat for him anymore than I have already. That's a cool way to look at it. I mean, I took a long break from watching wrestling and missed a lot of Bryan's more famed indy work but I saw the 2001 Super 8 show within a couple of weeks of the show (I was heavily into independent wrestling in the first few years of the boom). Bryan was 19 then and I was 16. I watched WrestleMania LIve. So I can get behind the culmination storyline. Its awesome because we were basically all there on the ground floor and watched him beat what we viewed as literal impossible odds to be the #1 guy. That's awesome. I like yours better but that just kinda makes the aftermath more depressing. This. 100% this.

See this is something I find really interesting to think about. Its another one of the many examples of why it sucks voting on modern candidates of candidates theoretically in their prime and not having time to reflect and see how their influence manifests itself. Because my first question in regards to Dylan's point would be: Is this a good thing for pro wrestling? That fans now know they can just reject and shit on things and WWE will cave and give them exactly what they want? Is that good for pro wrestling long term? My next question would be something about the rise in social media and people using that as a form of instant protest and that's effect on the populous, especially the nerd culture populous (nerd culture which also was on the rise during Bryan's run to the top), and whether or not something like the Daniel Bryan movement was inevitable and Bryan just happened to be the right place/right time (not to discredit Bryan himself. Right place/Right Time is how everyone in the history of everything got ahead and its also Right Place/Right Time/Right Person and Bryan was unquestionably the right person). But I haven't figured out a good way to ask it so I give you that nonsense instead. Anyway, this is more interesting than "what was ROH's biggest crowd?" (which to be fair was my least interesting question ) edit: Or what Matt said, damnit!

I'm much more interested in discussing/learning about Bryan's actual place in wrestling history, specifically in regards to the growth and development of modern indy wrestling than whatever rabbit hole this is starting to head down.

Yeah, I get that point of view. And while I personally wouldn't vote anyone in strictly for work for a number of reasons, I understand that the precedent was set long ago and people do it and Bryan's a long time favorite. And I agree with/understand Loss' point about the perception of being a good worker is more important than actually being a good worker. But if there's more to his candidacy than just work, I'd like to see it talked about specifically. Partially because I'm a jerk but also because it's interesting. I think the indy candidates are interesting thought experiments and some of them might deserve to be in. But I'd rather it be for reasons other than "we all like his performance." But that's just me. I understand the "influence" argument but that sort of goes back to it being stupid that guys go on the ballot so quickly. How can we actually determine Bryan's influence when whatever influence he has is still taking shape? I know jdw's been talking about Bryan going in the HOF since before he was even in WWE. And I get it. They're the WON Awards and so it makes sense that Junkyard Dog would be viewed as a joke candidate and Bryan is viewed as a "no brainer." It would be silly that the "Junkfood Dog" makes it if the winner of the most "Most Outstanding Wrestler" awards was on the outside looking in. It is very much the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame before a Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame. But I'm still curious if someone wants to have a go at answering my specific questions. Loss raises a good point about ROH DVD Sales. I should have asked about that. I seem to recall reading at some point that Samoa Joe vs Kenta Kobashi sold the most DVD's in ROH history. Is that still true? Do we know what ROH averaged in terms of DVD sales and if we can point to Bryan consistently surpassing the average sales? I'm not sure what the magic number of DVD sales is to make it "enough" to be a HOF level guy. I do think its interesting that people point to his WWE run as a headliner. I'd like to see that examined more. It's great that a Mania was built around him. Super super cool... ...But isn't it always discussed about how "WrestleMania" is the draw itself? Wasn't the show basically sold out before Bryan was announced in the main event? Doesn't that happen every year? How many Mania's were built around Bryan? Just the one? Sid's got 2. Miz has one. Edge has one. Randy Orton. Batista. King Kong Bundy headlined a Mania. Obviously Bryan's case is built on other things and he was hotter than all of those guys and Bryan's "main event" of Mania was different than King Kong Bundy's. But people are pointing to his run as a headliner and main eventing a mania. And it really is ONE Mania. So, how what does that really mean? Was Bryan's run "on top" of WWE as long as Goldberg's run as the arguably the biggest name in the business. Did Bryan surpass Cena in terms of merchandise? If so, for how long? What were house show numbers like under Bryan? If they "went up slightly" that's cool but if it that means Bryan made a difference between 5500 people showing up for a house show and 6500, I'm not convinced that means anything to a HOF career especially if it lasted for less than a year. If he gets voted on and everyone agrees its because of the work, that's cool because he does have the rep as an all time great. But "Hall of Fame Draw" or "Hall of Fame Influence" I don't see. I guess my biggest problem is that the last year of Bryan's career struck me as the beginning of a Hall of Fame Career. Not the final exclamation point. I guess what I'd really like is for someone who is proclaiming Bryan to be a "Slam Dunk no brainer candidate" to do one tenth of the work that Dylan did getting Ken Patera on the ballot.

Man, Chyna gets put on the ballot and Sputnik Monroe can't get a whiff? Looking at it, I would probably vote for 7 Lucha Candidates and that doesn't include Fishman who I don't know enough about but seems like his US or Japanese Wrestling Equivalents probably went in by fiat in 96. And I base that on absolutely nothing. But the main thing I've been thinking about is Daniel Bryan who is viewed as "no brainer" by some, I wanted to ask the following questions. 1. Is Bryan's status as a "no brainer" candidate based 100% on him being a "work" candidate? 2. If the answer is "yes" who else would you consider for the HOF based 100% on "in ring work." 3. If the answer is "no" how much weight is being given to Bryan's independent run and how much is being based on his year as a headliner in WWE? If credit is being given for Bryan's indy run for reasons other than work, I'm curious about the following questions related to Ring of Honor: 1. Did Bryan draw the biggest house/gate in Ring of Honor? 2. What WAS the biggest drawing card in ROH history? 3. Was Bryan the key figure in the early days of ROH? 4. Was Bryan the key figure in ROH's most successful days? 5. Did Bryan have the most important ROH title run? 6. Did Bryan have the most memorable ROH title run? 7. Was Bryan the biggest star in ROH history (not after he left, but while he was there)? 8. Did Bryan leaving for WWE have a negative impact on ROH's business? And moving away from ROH to general indy questions. 1. Was Bryan the "biggest draw" on the indy scene and if so, how long was that run? 2. Has independent wrestling as a whole suffered since Bryan went to WWE? 3. Last one is a thought experiment: If Bryan never existed, would the indy boom have still happened? I just want to get a better picture because I know everyone really likes him, but he strikes me as a "no way" for the WON Hall of Fame.

edit nevermind.

John, what sort of Wahoo McDaniel in Japan is out there on tape/possibly on tape? Was also wondering about Johnny Valentine? Surely he had some runs in All Japan/New Japan/JWA before the plane crash? Which brings me full circle to the real Holy Grail: Wahoo vs Johnny Valentine - All Matches.

Ok you convinced me. I was wavering on that one more than another other match. I also considered the Murakami/Ogawa vs Hash/Iizuka tag from 1/4/00 but I was like "Nah, thats a no-brainer MOTYC."

Is there more to the Eva Marie drug test other than "She has an adderall prescription and WWE has arbitrarily banned this legal drug?" I mean, it seems illegal for WWE to suspend someone for taking legal medication prescribed by a doctor. Can they (or any company) do this? What am I missing here. What are the "reasons being reported?" And yeah. Fuck off JR

Ignoring stuff like "here are 500 Rey Jr matches" these are some of the ones that popped into my head and they're basically all short-ish matches. Satanico vs Octagon from I think 1991. I can't remember the date off the top of my head. But this is basically Satanico getting a good match out of someone who may as well be asleep. Octagon does absolutely nothing other than exist and breath but Satanico is determined to drag it to a compelling brawl. Brian Pillman vs Barry Windham Taped First Match SuperBrawl 1 - a match I'm sure everyone has seen. 6 minutes of wild back and forth brawling leading to both guys blading. Kind of hard to imagine how this could have been better. The Kiyoshi Tamura vs Kazushi Sakuraba 1996 Trilogy - These fall just below "great" for me because they don't feel as fully formed as a lot of other short matches I'd still consider great. But it is quite the glimpse of what could have been. Sakuraba should have gone to RINGS. ARGH! Yuki Ishikawa vs Kazunari Murakami 11/26/00 - A totally insane brawl by shoot style standards. Murakami is the stiffest motherfucker ever just blasting away at Ishikawa. This even spills outside into the crowd as these two square off for face punching. Someone needs to get this back online asap. Takeshi Ono vs Daisuke Ikeda 9/26/10 - Similar to Ishikawa/Murakami by shorter without the awesome visual of the in crowd square off. This is fucking awesome though with Ono just blasting away at Ikeda. Ono & Murakami have to be related somehow. Big Show vs Mark Henry Money in the Bank 2011 - These two have had better matches with other people and with each other actually, but I love this. Big man sprint slugfest with WWE giving us an instant replay of a shoulderblock because of the massiveness. I'm not sure what to do with something like Lawler vs Bundy or Jim Cornette vs Cowabunga because they probably fall into this category, but they're also in the "million billion stars" bucket. I'm probably the only person in the world who thinks its a legit great show from top to bottom, but I think every match on Survivor Series 87 falls into the ***1/2-**** range. The opener I especially find extremely enjoyable. Good work and HTM getting his butt kicked. Edit: Wanted to add the Shamrock vs Owen Hart match from the Hart Family Basement. I don't even remember what show its on but it has stuck out in my mind for 18 years or however long its been since it first aired as being super super fun with Owen using the surroundings he grew up in to his favor (Hurricanrana using the ceiling specifically sticks out). I need to rewatch that.