elliott

I think a podcast comparing Regal and Hansen would be really interesting. Just putting it out into the universe

When I read Will's initial post about Clippers TNA, my immediate thought was what WingedEagle said about Clips being WCW. Just an ass-backward run promotion that stumbled into a couple of years of big success and then it all fell apart because of stupidity. But I love Vince Russo as V Stiviano so I'm happy with that comp.

The Sacramento Kings are TNA.

Was this a hardcore match? I remember absolutely loving a Ki vs Mack hardcore match from 2002ish where they brawled all over the building.

#19 http://s7.zetaboards.com/Smarkschoice/topic/8559494/1/ I'm wondering if El-P would like to make the case here for Takada as a top 20 worker. I'm not trolling. Well, I am, but I'm not trying to be a dick about it, as I will absolutely read and consider what you have to say. Like I said before I probably would have ranked him top 20 if I did this in 2000 or 2001 in the VHS days. But with the footage explosion, youtube, and discs, I've been able to see a lot more of Takada himself and other workers and there are a lot of people I like more. But since you're still a big fan I'm wondering if you can run down the case. Even better if you would compare him to other workers. A comp vs other shoot style guys or just other workers you see as on his level.

So one of my questions was about "under the radar" workers. It's kind of tough because shoot style really only existed for what 10-12 years? The "answers" probably aren't exactly under the radar anymore as most people in our circles have probably heard of these guys. But in the interest of staying true to the Beginners Guide theme of this thread, I figured I'd list some of the highly touted midcarders people should keep an eye out for and I'm hoping Tim or OJ can tell us all more about them and recommend some matches to seek out. Yoji Anjo Naoki Sano Tatsuo Nakano Masahito Kakihara Yoshihiro Takayama Tsuyoshi Khosaka Yoshihisa Yamamoto Who else from the major promotions? In a way I feel like all of BattlArts is under the radar so I don't know what to do about them. I feel like if you've heard of BattlArts then you're aware of Ikeda/Ishikawa/Otsuka. OJ mentioned Carl Greco as someone to look out for. Who are the other awesome BattlArts mid carders? Also if someone wanted to tackle gaijin from Norman Smiley and Bob Backlund to Vader and whatever wierdo Rings guys (that aren't Han) that are worth learning about it would be awesome. This can cover impact and/or best/worst matches.

Yeah, those goofy as fuck Fujiwara headbutts were "pure shootstyle". And all those god awful matches involving shitty gaijins in RINGS didn't expose the style at all either. (I love the best RINGS, probably some of my favourite stuff ever, but the bad stuff was atrocious) The negative bias toward Takada and UWFi (the "farce" that also was the hottest promotion in Japan for a while) is ridiculous. I was someone who would have talked about Takada as a top 15 all time guy in 2001. I had all of Tabe's Takada Comps and a bunch of UWFi shows. I haven't watched any of that stuff since and I'll reserve judgement until I get the chance to revisit it in the yearbooks. Coming off the heels of the NJ and Other Japan set I would absolutely put Takada behind Fujiwara, Maeda, and Yamazaki. I liked Super Tiger in UWF way more than Takada as well. He's probably better than Osamu Kido. I won't speak to the UWFi stuff because I haven't watched it in so long. Takada definitely had some great performances and matches but watching a shit ton of matches in a row with all those guys I came away wanting to watch more Fujiwara and Maeda. I wouldn't say Takada is terrible or anything like that. I just thought the other guys were much better. And Fujiwara's headbutts are awesome.

OJ's quotes in bold... I get the argument for Duncan. My gut feeling is that if it boils down to who I'd rather have on a team the answer would be Bird. If you're talking about longevity, the arguments make sense for Duncan. I wouldn't necessarily agree that longevity means Duncan had the better career, but many would argue that he has. Certainly a case can be put forward that Duncan was the more all-round skilled player. I get all that. What I don't get, or rather never got, was the feeling that Duncan (even in his prime) was one of the five greatest players ever. Maybe over the course of his career, but it wasn't something it seemed as though we were witnessing in the early 00s. I felt in his prime Duncan was the best player in the league. Duncan's case is slightly different from some of the other GOAT candidates because even in his prime the stories about Duncan weren't "Another 50 point game from Tim Duncan!" they were always about his workmanlike consistency night in and night out. During his peak years, he was consistently looked at as one of the 3 best players in the league along with Shaq and Kobe. I know some people at the time favored one or both of the Lakers ahead of Duncan. At the time I didn't buy that argument and saw Duncan as the best player in the league. Shaq took too many nights off and Kobe was a selfish prick. Duncan combined world class play every night and without being a team destroying diva. However, Duncan did win back to back MVPs and finished 2nd in the voting the year before and the year after his back to backs. So it's not like his peak isn't extremely impressive historically. You can say you'd rather have Bird on your team and that's fine. If I was a team owner/GM I would rather have Duncan because I know I'm a contender for essentially 18 years and I can count on having the most low-key drama free superstar in sports. The rest of the argument was to do with this notion that Duncan led an otherwise lottery-bound Spurs team to a 60 win season and an NBA title, which I think is silly because after the re-signed him they build the team around him to be a title contender. That 03 team isn't a title contender or playoff team without the night in and night out brilliance on both ends of the court of Tim Duncan. That team doesn't really exist without Duncan. Um, exactly? Also, I don't think Duncan dominated those playoffs to the degree that you can say he carried a team of nobodies to an NBA title. We disagree on the notion that a guy who averaged 25/15/5/3 in the playoffs while leading his team to the title isn't a dominating performance. He didn't just lead a team without a fellow all star he did it with no one else averaging 15ppg, no one else averaging 7rpg, and no one else averaging 4apg and no one averaging 1.5bpg. As I said, they relied on outside shooting, and while it was streaky, they got it from a number of different players. They relied on the fact that they had an all time great player at PF who was a guaranteed double double who played all world defense every single night. They never knew where they would get scoring on any given night but they knew they would get 20-30 points and 10-15 rebounds a night from Duncan. And I'm not talking Paxson or Kerr shooting the game winner either. We're talking about entire runs (in some cases rallying for a deficit) and in several cases an entire quarter. If his team had been so shit, that doesn't happen and Duncan doesn't win the title. Right. And if Duncan isn't the Rock controlling both sides of the court for those role players every night those guys don't make the playoffs. That, to me, is as true as the Spurs not winning the title if Duncan had gone to Orlando. It's possible that the 2003 Spurs could have been part of a three peat. The more I think about it, the more crazy it is that they're being presented as a team of scrubs. We literally could not be further from the same page. The names look great on paper. Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Steve Smith, Steve Kerr, David Robinson, Bruce Bowen, Stephen Jackson, Kevin Willis. But to say that's some sort of amazing collection of talent in 2003 is completely ignoring the reality of where those guys were in their careers in 2003. I'll post that quote again along with more from his teammates in 2003. Anonymous Spurs staffer stating Duncan’s case in the 2003 MVP race: “Stephen Jackson’s our second-best player. And the Nets cut him.” (Chicago Tribune) Sean Elliott: “You can look at his stats, but I don’t think that really tells the story what Tim Duncan means to this team, this franchise, this city. He’s more than that. This guy encompasses everything that you want in an MVP. I’ve never been more impressed watching a guy every day and playing with a guy more so than I have been with Tim Duncan. He plays with class, with dignity every game.” Speedy Claxton, Spurs teammate after Duncan’s triple-double in March 2003: “He’s the best player in the league. Once you start watching him a lot, you learn to appreciate his game even more.” Malik Rose in 2003: “He’s carried us. Just like he always does.” Danny Ferry, Spurs teammate on Duncan’s 2003 playoffs: “He was just unbelievable. This has to confirm him as one of the greatest players of all time.” Steve Kerr, Spurs teammate after Game 6: “I told him he was incredible. Nothing else needed to be said.” David Robinson after Game 6: “We just always expect a great, great game from him and he just delivered time and time again. He carried us through almost every time. We just had to provide the help for him.”

El Satanico vs Ultimo Dragon SWS Handheld new to youtube. Anyone seen this before? Title match but its in Japan so they don’t work it like a lucha title match. Satanico mostly dominates with kicking and punching while Dragon uses flashy offense to come back. Satanico is terrific as a base allowing Dragon to shine. He busts out his apron to floor senton and 2nd rope senton to keep the Japanese crowd interested. Match ends rather quickly with a double pin. Dragon cuts a promo and crowd chants for a restart. Match restarts and Satanico is all “I didn’t agree to this shit” which pisses the crowd off. Restart is pretty short and more back and forth. Satanico actually wins this in a surprise. Enjoyable match but not great or anything. Satanico actually takes this which was a surprise going in but with the way the match is worked and the finish, Dragon taking the inevitable rematch will be satisfying.

I'm about to run but one quick point before I go... Literally no one has said Duncan was as good or better offensively than Bird or that he was a better passer (what?). What has been pointed to a bunch is this... 1997-98 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) 1998-99 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) 2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) 2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st) 2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) 2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) 2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) 2014-15 NBA All-Defensive (2nd) You're ignoring that other half of the game.

Loving FA so far. 4 yrs 45 million for Danny Green is a hell of a deal compared to the contracts similar players are getting. And the Love/Thompson deals...holy crap lol.

Yep. It was late and I totally forgot about them.

I think Maeda and Choshu share a lot of the same qualities that make them great. But you're right Choshu has a bigger body of work. The last two sets I watched were NJ and then Other Japan so I've watched a shit ton of Maeda lately and his best performances are some of my favorites. Who would you rate above him from Japan for the 80s? Fujiwara, Fujinami, Jumbo, Tenryu, and Choshu are obvious. I cheated and left Hansen off to fudge the numbers and get Maeda higher so you can toss him in as well.

I watched every single Spurs game of that 2003 post-season and they struggled for what was a 60 win team. It took them six games to close out each series. Duncan was double teamed a lot and often went scoreless for long stretches. In the close out game against Phoenix, Ginobili and Jackson took over in the fourth quarter. In the Western Conference finals it was that famous shooting display from Steve Kerr. Game 3 of the Finals it was Parker and Ginobili. Kerr again in Game 5. Robert Horry in Game 5 against the Lakers Duncan was huge against the Lakers and had some monster games at other times in the playoffs, but it's easy to look at a roster and say Steve Kerr 10 games, 2.2 ppg in the playoffs when in fact he was pivotal in two playoff victories, or to say that Parker and Ginobili weren't instrumental because they were better players later on. Or undervaluing their sixth man, Malik Rose, because he never won a Sixth Man of the Year award or anything of that nature. Even the Admiral had that huge double-double in the title clinching game. Duncan was the star, but it was a hodge-podge team that relied on a second scoring option from somewhere and everybody chipping in. With Bird, I could envision him taking over down the stretch more often than Duncan did. Perhaps that's an unfair comparison because Bird was clearly more of a shooter than Duncan, but it's who I'd opt for if I could switch players. I have a hard time believing Bird wouldn't have torched the 2003 Nets. If Duncan wasn't on that Spurs team, they wouldn't have won 60 games. Yes other guys stepped up along the way, but Duncan's night in and night out play is why they were a 60 win team. In the playoffs, the game changes. Youre playing the same team every night. It is easier to gameplan against a single star team. That he still managed to lead his team to the title is still incredible. And as for your point about various guys stepping up during the playoffs, I mean, no kidding. Name one team in the history of the league that won a title without role players stepping up in big moments. Who would you say was the 2nd best player on the 03 Spurs? Is there another team in the history of the league that won a title with a worse 2nd best player? There really isn't. History has shown that it takes at least 2 stars to win a title in the NBA with one exception. Tim Duncan's 03 Spurs.

Look at that 2003 team again. There's not a lot of help there. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html We can presume that Bird could have carried a group of scrubs like that but there's no real evidence of it. With Duncan there is. Look at that team. I came across this great quote a couple of days ago actually about the 2003 team. “Stephen Jackson’s our second-best player. And the Nets cut him.” (Chicago Tribune) -Anonymous Spurs staffer on Duncan's 2003 MVP case. So I would reject the idea that he couldn't carry teams. Longevity is the key thing though. I admitted peak Bird is better than peak Duncan.

Who is the pro wrestling equivalent of Boogie Cousins?

I'm really interested to dive back into his 90s work. I watched a really huge chunk of Rings back in the early 00s but I haven't watched or thought about Rings beyond Han/Tamura in forever. Looking at the 80s sets, and this might be controversial, but I would only definitely rank Fujiwara, Fujinami, Tsuruta and maybe Tenryu above Maeda as far as Japanese workers from the 80s. He's similar to Choshu in a lot of ways but I think Maeda has more high end performances in the 80s. Who am I forgetting (i'm leaving off Hansen intentionally)? Anyone else see Maeda as a top 5 Japanese Worker from the 80s contender?

Thanks for all of this. Great great stuff. Thinking about the best shoot style feuds... Working my way through the Other Japan sets Fujiwara vs Maeda feels like a feud of the decade contender. I have loved that matchup every time. Fujiwara vs Super Tiger is also really great. Everyone knows Maeda vs Takada is a feud to look out for and Takada vs Yamazaki has always been praised. Fujiwara vs Takada and Fujiwara vs Yamazaki are also excellent matchups. I love the Fujiwara vs Yamazaki matchup actually. Han vs Tamura is another all time great shoot style feud. I haven't watched Takada vs Vader or vs Albright in well over a decade so I have no idea how I'll like those now. I know there's debate on whether or not BattleArts is really shoot style but if it is Ikeda vs Ishikawa is the feud to watch. Any other feuds or recurring matchups that were great?

Duncan's defense sways this in a major way I think. Duncan is probably one of the 10 best defensive players ever. He was 2nd team all defense his rookie year, behind Karl Malone and Scottie Pippen. He was 1st team all defense his 2nd year and finished ahead of Pippen and Malone. He's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 15 seasons. This aspect of his game literally has not fallen off and in some ways has gotten even better. Bird was probably a league average defender. I know people will argue that he was a good "team defender" who would play "free safety" and gamble for steals and I can accept that. But the gap between the two is enormous. Duncan is/was a great offensive player and an all time defender. I just can't in good conscience put Bird above that. I definitely agree that Bird is better offensively. Bird was more versatile offensively in the halfcourt and in transition because he could grab a rebound and sprint off running the fast break. Bird was a better passer overall, but Duncan is an excellent passing big man. Duncan swamps him as far as longevity, durability, and overall team success. He won less MVPs, but Timmy still bagged 2 of them (and let's be real, if Tim Duncan was some white hick from Indiana he would have more than 2 mvps). More all star and all nba team appearances so Duncan beats him as far as awards/accolades as well. You could build a team around Bird's offense and win titles. You could build a team around Tim's offense and/or defense and win titles. That's why I'm firm on Duncan in my top 3 or 4 and Bird is sitting at 9 and could fall out of the top 10 depending on what happens over the next few decades Bird is great. I mean, top 9 out of 1000s great. His very best seasons are better. But I definitely think Duncan is a step above Bird.

I was gonna say that Yohe put Mikan that high because they were elementary school pals. But John is his good buddy so I figured I'd let him bring up the age thing. I appreciate Yohe's perspective though because he is a hardcore fan that got to watch everyone from Russell and West to Anthony Davis and Steph Curry. So I kid because I love On LeBron at #4...I mean, if the Cavs had managed to steal the series, that's an argument I would listen to. I don't know that I could ever put him above MJ, Russ, Timmy and Kareem. But I would actually have been ok with leapfrogging him above Magic/Kobe/West had they won the title. If I did the list again right now I'd put him over Wilt, Bird and Oscar. I just don't have the heart to put him above Jerry West yet.

Talk more about Bird over Duncan.

Whenever people say "Duncan is the best PF of all time" its starting to seem like a backhanded compliment. I just don't see an argument to keep him out of the top 5. He has all the titles and accolades you could want. Peak, longevity, great offensively and defensively. MJ and Russell are virtually interchangeable for me. I think Russell's accomplishments are just too impressive to even consider him for anything lower than 2. He's the best defensive player in history and his offense was much better than most people realize. He and Duncan are the best HOF teammates ever. He won titles as a player coach. A lot of people talk about "how good would he be in today's NBA?" as a negative for some of the older guys and as a way to prop up newer guys. I generally think dumb for a variety of reasons, but at the same time I think if Bill Russell was born in 1990, he would be an all time great player.

This was almost the best haiku about Hulk Hogan ever.

Yohe: 1-Bill Russell 2-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3-Michal Jordan 4-Lebron James 5-Wilt Chamberlain 6-Jerry West 7-Oscar Robertson 8-Magic Johnson 9-Tim Duncan 10-George Mikan 11-Elgin Baylor 12-Larry Bird 13-Bob Pettit 14-Kobe Bryant 15-Hakeem Olajuwon jdw Okay... kind of winging this. 1. Michael Jordan 2. Bill Russell 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 4. Tim Duncan 5. Magic Johnson 6. Larry Bird 7. Kobe Bryant 8. Wilt Chamberlain 9. Jerry West 10. LeBron James 11. Oscar Robertson 12. Hakeem Olajuwon 13. Shaquille O'Neal 14. Moses Malone 15. Elgin Baylor Jagdip 1. Jordan 2. Kareem 3. Russell 4. Magic 5. Wilt 6. Kobe 7. Duncan 8. Bird 9. LeBron 10. Shaq 11. West 12. Oscar 13. Moses 14. Hakeem 15. Isiah Elliott 1. Michael Jordan 2. Bill Russell 3. Tim Duncan 4. Kareem 5. Magic 6. Kobe 7. Jerry West 8. Oscar Robertson 9. Larry Bird 10. Wilt 11. Lebron 12. Shaq 13. Hakeem 14. Moses Malone 15. Elgin Baylor Here's the thread http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 John pretty quickly jumped on me for ranking Duncan ahead of Kareem. I accepted this. But I think they're really close to each other and Duncan gets closer to surpassing him every year. John and I have the best top 15s.

I've been watching the incredibly awesome Other Japan set and it got me thinking about the shoot style promotions. We have a "Beginners Guide" Thread for Lucha and European wrestling. I figured it would be useful to have one for shoot style. These were some of the questions I thought it would be important or interesting to talk about. UWF was the first shoot style promotion. When did it start, how long did it last? Who was the “Ace” from the very start? Who were the other key players from the first UWF and what were they up to before the promotion started? Gran Hamada and Perro Aguyao worked a brawling all over the place match in UWF 1. How long did they use workers like that and how frequently did they have matches like that? Was Hamada’s UWF related to the shoot style UWF from the same time. If yes, really? That seems really weird. And if no, really? That also seems weird. Why did they use the same name? When did Shoot style move completely away from top rope moves? When did they move to just submissions and knockouts (ie no pinfalls)? What are the other notable shoot style promotions? What are the rule and/or stylistic differences between the major promotions? Who are the biggest draws/stars in each promotion? Who are the best workers in each promotion? What are the major feuds to look at in each promotion? What are the very best matches from each promotion? What matches would you recommend to someone new to shoot style just getting into the style (so not necessarily the best but the most universally appealing?)? Who are some of the under the radar “guys to watch out for” in each promotion (ie not Maeda, Fujiwara, Volk Han, etc). This is all I could come up with