elliott

That was such a great little brawl. They packed a ton of shit into 5 minutes but it never felt like they were going overboard with a million spots. Just a fast paced hard hitting match. Tommy was really great bumping and stooging for Brad and then looked like a vicious ass kicker when he took over. Great find. Tommy is another guy I plan on watching a ton of for this project. I think the announcer said "Brad Armstrong" 150 times in this 5-6 minutes.

Satanico, Apolo Dantes, Dr Wagner Jr vs Perro Aguayo, Ringo Mendoza, Emilio Charles Jr 2000 This must have been clipped because we don't see the finish of the 2nd fall. This is only about 7 1/2 minutes but I loved it. Total brawl. There's an awesome spot in the first fall when the rudo's are dominating the match and put Mendoza and Charles in the tree of woe while Wagner and Perro brawl on the outside. So Satanico and Dantes go out and drag Perro back in the ring and ram him headfirst into the stomach's of Mendoza and Charles. One thing Satanico always does that I really like is when his team has someone set up in the corner and are taking turns running across the ring and clotheslining the guy in the corner, Satanico will stand in front of the guy in the corner until the last second just to make sure he doesn't escape. It's smart and something he did all the time. What we see of this is really good. Satanico mostly works with Ringo Mendoza doing back and forth rope running, arm drags, hip tosses, etc. It looks really good and Satanico can really move for a 50 year old. Has Ringo been nominated yet? This match really was about Perro Aguayo. And he was awesome as the crusty old bad ass. He and Wagner Jr just stiffed the fuck out of each other. Perro bled a little. He even hit a tope. Perro Aguayo is like the lucha Tenryu of 2000. Just an old grumpy bastard who will let you hit him as hard as he can but you better make it count because he's going to hit back twice as hard. I might watch all the Perro matches online when I finish with Satanico. He's not a #1 contender like Satanico, but he's someone I really like and his work got shit on for years and years. He's had some really great matches and I'd like to see if he has more stuff like this out there. It'll be him or Sangre Chicana next for me. Anyway, what's shown of this match is really fun and another great example of Satanico as a 50+year old man looking awesome. Satanico, Hijo de Gladiator, Gran Markus Jr vs Negro Casas, TAKA Michinoku, Super Porky 5/30/97 Satanico is only 47 in this match. I wonder if Satanico and Taka had ever worked together before because they were matched up in the first fall and looked good until they flubbed the timing on an armdrag. Satanico did a pretty good job covering for it. When they match up to start the 2nd fall, Satanico slows it down and actually works a test of strength spot with Taka before kneeing him in the gut and taking over with punching. Good spot and smart to slow it down and cut off Taka instead of doing more rope running spots. There's a great comedy spot where Super Porky comes in and Satanico is just slapping the shit out of him and Porky is totally no selling it and then grabs Satanico and gives him a bunch of headbutts driving him across the ring. Satanico's selling is really expressive and comical here and the crowd loves it. There's another great comedy spot with Satanico, Porky and Gladiator where Porky has Gladiator trapped in the corner but Satanico keeps kicking/headbutting Porky in the stomach and every time he does, Porky gives Gladiator a big butt bump and squashes him. Gran Markus Jr joins in and Gladiator is just getting creamed while the crowd is eating it up. Great dive sequence by the technicos that has Porky hitting a tope and Taka hitting one of his typically beautiful springboard dropkicks and then putting Satanico away. Taka celebrates like it is a huge moment. Lots of good stuff in this. Fun match. Satanico vs Ringo Mendoza and Emilio Charles Jr Looks to be about 2001-2003. Not sure what the story behind this but this is basically an exhibition. 5 minutes with Ringo and then 5 minutes with Emilio. The 5 minutes with Emilio is clipped even and we only get about a minute. The RIngo section was good not great maestro mat work. This is perfectly watchable for what it is but nothing memorable.

I was poking around youtube trying to see if I could find anything I might have missed or to see if anything new has popped up in the last few days. Sure enough I found something pretty cool that was uploaded on 10/11 and has a grand total of 6 views. And I clicked on the page twice. Not a match but hopefully building to a Satanico vs Solar singles match that could be really interesting. Short video starts with Satanico beating up Solar. Then he grabs the mic and cuts a long promo. Then he beats up Solar some more. Then he starts to leave and Solar grabs the mic and talks shit back. Keep your fingers crossed for an old man Satanico vs old man Solar match!

It's great. Once I free up some more time I will watch everything posted, since Satanico is someone who has a shot at number one. Thanks! It's gong to be 80+ matches by the time I'm done so start carving that time out I am starting to run out of post 2000 matches on youtube though. However I just watched.... Satanico vs El Dandy 3/2014 I thought this was fucking awesome. I've never seen a Lucha match in such a small setting before. The match is basically shot in the ring so you get to see these two legends work up close and personal. The opening mat work is really good. They struggle for each hold and counter and add some nice little touches like Satanico grinding his elbow into Dandy's back and things like that. Eventually, Dandy pushes Satanico's face away to help alleviate the pressure on a hold and that just pisses Satanico off. Dandy does it several times and Satanico slaps his hand away each time. Finally Satanico gets sick of El Dandy touching his face so he lets Dandy up so he can talk shit right to his face. Then Satanico cheap shots him and this turns into punching, stomping, kneeing, etc. They work really tight and the selling from both guys is excellent so with the super close up camera work this feels like a big epic match even though it took place in front of probably less than 150 people. Who are all super into everything these guys do. (Also, it is totally bizarre to me that a lucha crowd WOOOOs at chops). This isn't the best match I've watched so far, but I'm really really glad I found it. Really cool stuff. Satanico is 64 years old in this match. Satanico, Joe Lider, Rey Templario vs Scoria, Fulgor, Mascara Sagrada Jr 6/29/14 Oh my god this shit would not end. For as much as I loved the last match I fucking hated this. Similar set up. Really small building, filmed basically in the ring. Not really ideal for a 6 man tag. Satanico spends a lot of time out on the apron and doesn't do anything really impressive when he is in the ring. The other 5 guys I thought looked awful. Either really sloppy and loose or unnecessarily stiff. The worst part of this is that whoever posted the video decided to dub some nu-metal crap over the sound. Take a bad match and then add the worst music ever...(I watched it on mute but would occasionally turn the sound on hoping it would end...it didn't ugggh) and this is a terrible segment. Nobody else make the mistake of watching this. Yikes. This was actually the last post 2000 Satanico match I've been able to find on youtube. If I come across anymore, I will definitely watch them. If anyone else finds anything, please either post it or PM me the link because I want to watch that shit. Everyone should watch that El Dandy match I just watched though. That was really good.

Thanks soup and Phil! I'll be back later today with more matches

This is a serious question for voters even if it might seem fairly obvious. When considering a tag team, are you just looking at what the guys did as part of the tag team or are you thinking about the totality of their career? As an extension of that, do you look at their singles work when they were part of the team as part of the candidacy of the team? I guess what I really want to know is when voters are thinking about The Rock n Roll Express' candidacy, do Ricky Morton's main events against Flair come into play or are you JUST looking at what Ricky and Robert did together? Would Ricky Morton have had an easier time getting in the Hall after all these years than The Rock n Roll Express as a team? I suspect most voters here would just be looking at the RnR's as a team and what Morton did before wouldn't count but the run against Flair would because he did it as a member of the RnR's. But I was curious what the thought process is for teams.

Satanico, Blue Panther, Hijo del Lizmark vs Averno, Mephisto, Ephesto not sure on the date but If I had to guess I'd 2003-2004. This was pretty forgettable. The work itself wasn't bad but this kind of struck me as a an average TV match. Not much to say about this really. CMLL was using a referee cam in this and what a terrible idea that was. I will add one thing...I used to see Meltzer praise HHH a lot for his "positioning" in the ring and I thought it was just bullshit. But Satanico has great ring positioning. He's great at timing his movements and being in just the right place to eat a big spot. He never seems lost and hardly ever misses a beat. Very consistent. This match isn't the best example ever of that but it is something I wanted to mention. Satanico, Marco Corleone, Hijo del Lizmark vs Olipico, Pierroth, Universo 2000 3/4/07 Ugh this wasn't good. Mostly built around the rudo's dominating Hijo del Lizmark and Marco Corleone, neither of whom look very impressive. Satanico still throws a really good punch and from watching some other old man Satanico matches, I know he can bring some things to the table but he really doesn't do anything to make this enjoyable. But nobody else did either Satanico, Alan Stone, Angel Azteca vs Averno, Mephisto, Arkangel de la Muerte 2003 This was much better than the last two matches. Short brawling match. Satanico's team is attacked before the bell and Satanico is actually beat down and laid out on the way to the ring. So when he finally makes his comeback the crowd is going nuts. Satanico looks great here selling and making firey comebacks. Too short to be special or great but this is definitely entertaining and worth watching. Satanico, Lizmark Sr, Mictlan vs Emilio Charles Jr, Pierroth, Shiego Okumura 1/14/07 I went into this with really low expectations but came out of it thinking it was a really good Satanico performance. This is built around the rudo's dominating using Pierroth's belt. Choking and whipping the technico's until they slowly make a comeback, get the belt and get some payback. Satanico does a great job selling the beating and then returning the favor and has some really great facials in this. Satanico actually wins the match by tricking the ref into thinking Pierroth kicked him in the nuts. This is another good example of Satanico doing a good job structuring and adding to the match using his brain. Lizmark, even as old as he is here, is sooooooooo much better than his kid. I may need to do an Atlantis/Lizmark comparison. This is worth watching and a good Satanico performance.

Satanico, Nosferatu, Euforia vs Virus, Leono, Valiente 4/28/07 Satanico is 57 here. I don't think I've ever seen Virus but I know he's supposed to be great. Never heard of the other 4. I haven't seen much modern lucha and what I have watched has been primarily old dudes. So I don't know if these young guys always work like this but there are some ridiculously dangerous spots and dives in this. This match is basically Nosferatu and Euforia vs Leono and Valiente in a workrate spring doing insane spots while Satanico and Virus add the personality to the match. When they first square off after a fast paced opening segment, Satanico slows the match down, walks over to the corner to talk strategy with the young guys. So Virus hits an armdrag and the two rudos run in and immediately attack him from behind. Satanico leads the double and triple teams as they take each technico out one after another. Satanico works a nice back and forth section with Virus in the third fall where he bumps well, gets back up quickly and is back running the ropes. It's not very long but it is impressive athleticism for a 57 year old man. The video is 23minutes but with the pre and post match as well as brief commercials between falls, this is actually pretty short. But I really enjoyed watching it. This sort of match is probably super easy for Satanico. But it's another one that shows how smart he is. Satanico, Nosferatu, Euforia vs Virus, La Mascara, Mictlan 5/12/07 This was more of an angle than a match really. Satanico completely disses Virus. Blows him off. Refuses to lock up or do anything. Whenever Virus gets in the right, the rudo's use bullying and intimidation because of the size difference while refusing to actually fight him. This leads to the La Mascara and Mictlan basically working 2 on 3 and getting double and tripled teamed while Virus stands in the corner. Finally they get fed up and attack Virus who fights back making it 4 on 2. Virus stands their watching as La Mascara and Mictlan are put into really painful looking submissions and lose the match. Rudo's take two straight falls. I actually thought this was pretty good and the way Satanico was blowing off Virus really makes me want to see them have a match. Satanico possesses a pretty lady. 2001 Vignette that aired during the Satanico vs Ultimo Guerrero/Rey Bucanero etc feud talked about on the first page. Hysterical.

I wanted to jump back to super old man Satanico from the mid-late 2000s because most of the other 90s stuff I have are big singles matches (vs. Pirata, two vs Lizmark, vs Pierroth, vs Kato Kung Lee, vs Estrada, vs Garza) or stuff from 1990 that I'm going to go through in order. So I figured I'd knock out these more recent matches first and see if there's anything that stands out. Satanico, Brazo de Oro, Blue Panther vs Pierroth, Emilio Charles Jr, Misterioso II 6/25/06 Satanico is 56 in this match. He works most of the match with Misterioso II who looks really terrible. This is short and not good. Satanico spends most of the first half othe match selling but the beating Misterioso is dishing out is not very interesting. A lot of standing in the corner choking. The crowd wants to see Satanico come back and get revenge and he does some ok spots where he's setting the rudos up for double teams and what not which is nice....but this just isn't very good. Satanico and Malefico vs Blue Panther and Neutron 1/4/09 Satanico is 59 here. When I put together a my giant list of Satanico matches this one jumped out at me as an old man Satanico match that I was looking forward to. I have never heard of Malefico or Neutron before let alone seen them, I just figured we would get some good Satanico/Panther stuff. And we certainly did. This starts with those two in the ring taking it to the mat. It's not mindblowingly great stuff but it is really good considering Satanico is 59 years old. Blue Panther has really awesome facial expressions. After they leave the ring Malefico and Neutron come in and do some fast paced stuff and it's entertaining but Satanico finally says "fuck this," trips Neutron, and runs in to attack him from behind. This turns the match into more of a brawl. Satanico has some nice comedy spots; eating a bulldog and claiming foul and taking a plancha from Blue Panther who has been backdropped out of the ring by Malefico. Neutron hits a completely insane moonsault from the top rope to the floor. This isn't a great match but it is a good example of Satanico being able to look good exchanging holds while adding character to the match using his brain. Nice example of old man Satanico.

Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr, Black Warrior vs Atlantis, Lizmark, El Dandy 3/15/97 I loved this. Based on how it is worked it seems Black Warrior and Atlantis are having issues but Satanico is the star of the match. We get a rudo dominated 1st fall with lots of brawling and Satanico leading the way for his team. Then when the technicos make their comeback in the 2nd fall you get some beautiful exchanges between Lizmark and Satanico. El Dandy vs Satanico is always a pleasure and Dandy looks tremendous here. Satanico looks just as fast and crisp in his movements as he did in the 80s. He was 47 years old in this match. Black Warrior takes some crazy bumps. Hot crowd. This was real good. Satanico, MS-1, Pirata Morgan vs Konna, Dos Caras, Atlantis 12/91 Holy shit I loved this too! The first fall is terrific as the Infernales dominate and they just bring so much to the table. Brawling, wrestling, flying. There is literally nothing those 3 guys can't do in the ring. Their timing is so good on everything. Really good stuff. Konnan actually blows two armdrags in the 2nd fall and gets booed loudly the 2nd time. The Infernales cover for it well both times, immediately pouncing on Konnan and taking over for a little stretch before letting him take over the firs time. The second time he got out of there pretty quick and didn't come back in for a long time. Which is awesome. Because Atlantis came in and was like "this idiot just blew two arm drags in under 90 seconds, I gotta turn this shit up to 11!" And he just goes crazy. Flying all around the ring looking smooth as fuck and moving at lightening speed. Atlantis actually works a lot of the match for his team but Caras looked good when he was in there. Really good match that I woul strongly recommend in spite of Konnan. Konnan does bring some tremendous hair to the table here so there's that.

I think it would be fun if Grimmas or somebody else (we don't want to totally overload Grimmas with stuff to do) did a series of podcasts on the #1 candidates. Get a voter for Flair, Lawler, Jumbo, Kawada, Casas, Santo, Fujiwara, Hansen, Mysterio Jr etc etc to come on and make the case for their guy. They don't have to be 2 hour marathons necessarily. Or you could take a page from the Wrestling Culture podcast that had Loss, Will and Dylan arguing Flair, Lawler, or Funk for #1 and get multiple people on making the cases and comparing and contrasting, etc. Could be fun.

Satanico, MS-1, Masakre vs Chavo, Eddie, Mando Guerrero 8/23/91 This was a good match, but at the same time kind of a let down for my expectations. Not great but definitely a good, basic match. I feel like the US territories experience Chavo and Mando here really shines through the way they isolate Satanico and work over his knee. Nothing they did would be out of place in a Midnights vs Rock n Roll Express match which was pretty interesting in this setting. The Infernales make their comeback working side headlocks but being slightly rougher with their execution of holds than the Guerreros. When I watch Satanico in a match like this I can see him fitting into a US territory in the 80s without skipping a beat. He could really do everything. This was also neat to see Eddie doing a running frog splash that looks exactly like his top rope one later and the Guerrero's actually won this with a frog splash. I guess he did not learn that from Art Barr. Satanico, Lizmark, El Faraon vs Cien Caras, La Fiera, Chavo Guerrero 10/27/89 2nd and 3rd falls This made it online in July and has under 175 views which is pretty cool. I've found a few matches that have only popped up in the last 3-4 monthes which I think is pretty cool. What's shown of the match isn't all that good. Satanico is working babyface in this and I will say I think he's good as a technico getting roughed up but can give it back because he's spent his career as a top heel. I would have liked to see the first fall which I assume was a technico dominated fall. The rudo brawling here was pretty aimless and not very interesting. Faraon is a phenomenal puncher.

This is my favorite quote ever. Amazing.

Infernales vs Brazos 11/22/91 Really great match. Pretty much everything you would want from a trios title match between two great teams. Great mat work, comedy, big bumps and dives, a super hot crowd etc. Great spots built around Super Porky's size. I'm surprised no one was killed on his tope. Satanico is out of this world great working the mat and selling, but this match is a feather in the cap of all these guys. Great match. Probably the best match I've watched for this project so far. Satanico, Apolo Dantes, Dr. Wagner Jr vs Emilio Charles Jr and The Headhunters Pretty short match. Not exactly good overall but watchable and another good performance with Satanico who has an issue going on with Emilio Charles Jr. They do some intense brawling and when that's not happening, Satanico is leading the charge in setting up the Headhunters for repeated dropkicks, closelines, etc to try and chop down the monsters. Finish really came out of nowhere. Satanico, Pirata Morgan, Mascara Ano 2000 vs El Dandy, Sangre Chicana, El Faraon 11/12/90 My only complaint is that this didn't last 40 minutes. This was in the middle of the Satanico/Dandy and Morgan/Faraon feuds so those 4 kick the crap out of each other with El Dandy getting a little bloodied in the first fall. Chicana isn't a featured player in this but he looks really good. He's probably the best wobbly legged "i just got hit really hard" seller I've ever seen. And he destroys Mascara Ano 2000 with his tope of death. This was under 15 minutes but it was really fun. I should have saved this to watch in context with the rest of the Satanico/Dandy feud, which I'll get to later, but it jumped out at me and I'm glad I watched it. Good stuff from everyone.

Satanico, Kamala, Pierroth Jr vs Ringo Mendoza, Black Magic, and Rayo de Jalisco Jr 3/24/91 Another short match here. Kamala in CMLL is so much fun, but this isn't at the level of the last Kamala match I watched. Still a lot of fun. Satanico matches up with Ringo Mendoza and they are the highlight of the match from a work perspective. I really wish there was a singles title match between those two floating around out there. Ringo is a guy who has impressed me everytime I've watched him. Really nice back and forth spots between those two. Before I started this match I had totally forgotten that Black Magic was Norman Smiley so that definitely adds some joy to this. He and Pierroth build really nicely to Norman's german suplex. Everytime Norman would get a rear waist lock, Pierroth would bail so when Norman finally hit the german, you knew it would end the first fall. Enjoyable match with Satanico looking really good as usual. Satanico, Espectro Jr, Ice Killer vs Hijo del Santo, Angel Azteca, Super Muneco 1/8/94 Ive never seen or heard of Ice Killer so I don't know anything about it. He wears a Jason Mask and carries a hockey stick to the ring which he uses to beat up the technicos. Wayne Gretzky is mentioned on commentary. I hope it was something like "Ice Killer is a better hockey player than Wayne Gretzky" or "Ice Killer beat up Wayne Gretzky and took his stick" or "Ice Killer was trained by Wayne Gretzky" or even better "That could be Wayne Gretzky under the mask." I gotta learn Spanish just so I can know. This is a really forgettable match. I would say Espectro Jr probably looked the best of anyone but this was pretty dull. Ice Killer was really the focal point for his team and he didn't look good. El Satanico, Negro Casas, Bestia Salvaje vs El Dandy, Apolo Dantes, Ultimo Dragon 8/14/92 Satanico and Salvaje lierally kick El Dandy into submission which is phenomenal. Ultimo spends the entire first fall selling the shit out of his leg and submitting and then sells it a little in the 2nd before blowing it off and going kick crazy. Then later he goes back to selling his leg after hitting Casas with the jumping spin kick. Thats irritating. Negro Casas looks excellent here. Great selling, really explosive work and he is great interacting with the crowd. Satanico and Dandy had some predictably nice moments together. This was good but a slight let down considering it has 3 of my all time favorites in Satanico, Casas, and Dandy.

I wanted to nominate El Faraon. I suspect he'll be one of the many "wish we had more" guys, but he did make the smarkschoice poll above guys like Buzz Sawyer, Kerry von Erich, Ron Garvin and Buddy Rose so I figured I would toss his name out and maybe see some unheralded matches in the meantime. I found some match reviews by Loss, Exposer and Parv on the board... Pirata Morgan vs El Faraon 11/16/90 Loss said: "20th Century Fox intro! Awesome! Usually, the matches with great mat work are 90% mat-based. The great high flying matches are mostly dives. The great brawls are mostly bloody brawling. Jif moms be warned, as this is the match for the lucha libre fan who hates to choose, and there is plenty of all three. I love how they work the matwork into the brawling context and it fits in quite well. Pirata is about as bloody as you'll ever see a wrestler, and then he loses his hair to boot. What a match! I wish we could have seen more of these two in 1990, but it is what it is. At least the match we got is a classic." Atlantis vs El Faraon 3/22/85 Exposer said: "This was damn good. This match had some nice variables to it. On one hand it was a match between an underdog and the veteran. Technically, it was a match built around body part work and selling which I love. I’m not a big fan of Atlantis’s full body selling of moves. I think one squirm is enough instead of thirty eight. He got better at it as the match went along though. The first fall is the traditional mat based opening fall of a title match. There’s a really nice flow to it and the transitions are pretty seamless. The ending of it was great with Faraon focusing on the neck. The second fall was really good also. This is in reverse with Atlantis working on Faraon’s arm and shoulder. Faraon was awesome at selling his right arm and his forearm clotheslines were tremendous. That submission to end the fall was great and Faraon’s selling and facial expressions during it were great. The third fall lets loose some and we get some great dives from Atlantis. I loved that Faraon kept going after Atlantis’s neck. His submission sitting down on his neck looked painful. The finish is awesome. Faraon thinks he’s won by count-out after seemingly riding the storm of Atlantis’s last comeback. And then bam, he gets hit with the victory roll from behind for the pin. Faraon is livid post-match but Atlantis isn’t shedding a tear. Great match with an excellent build. This is over four stars. I’d call it an A-. Great stuff. La Fiera, El Faraón y El Egipico vs. MS-1, Satanico y Pirata Morgan (3/29/85) - This started out just there for me. It got better and better as the match went on. The beating down on Fauron in the first fall was becoming boring a little bit but the action picked up in the second. I loved Fauron kicking at Satanico when he had his arms locked. Egipcio-Morgan was tremendous. I loved the visual of Morgan flying across the floor just barely on screen. It was a total "what the fuck" moment. The best part of this was Egipcio throwing Morgan THROUGH the Corona apron and then beating him with pieces of it. La Fiera was just there in this and didn't seem to add anything at all which is disappointing. He just wandered around and didn't do much at all. The punching exchanges, postings, and brawling in the third fall was great. Morgan's posting was particularly brutal. That back and forth punching exchange in the center of the ring between Egipcio-Morgan was off the charts. The closing minutes were fun and Fiera fucks up horribly on a dive and nearly spikes himself on his head. Fauron's dive was awesome as hell and he collided big time with MS-I. The finish was good too. I liked this a good bit. It was hurt by a middling start but the last five to eight minutes were tremendous. I don't know where this would rank right now. I will probably give this just short of four stars. It could have been better in my opinion." El Faraon, Herodes, Mocho Cota vs Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza and Tony Salazar 2/24/84 Parv said: "Oh awesome awesome awesome. Faraon and Cota teaming up! YES! And with the Mexican Hercules! Actually he looks more like a Mexican Harley Race here. First fall seemed super quick. This is a great heel beatdown here. Herodes looks great nailing the shots in. Tony Salazar is being totally killed here. Awesome stuff. And that's a DQ? lol, ok. Amazing visual of Salazar dangling over the apron as the heels just dickingly still kick him. Oh man, I fucking love this heel team. I fucking LOVE them. Awesome knee lift by Faraon. Great little cocky sneaky dipship deadleg by Cota on Lizmark. And now they go back to bullying poor Salazar. Ha ha ha ha. This is so great. Babyfaces coming back now and the crowd is pumped. TREMENDOUS bump into the turnbuckle by Herodes. Chaos breaking out now. Bodies and blood everywhere now. Oh my good, what an awesome blatant kick to the balls by Salazar for the payback, justice is done. Ah fuck it, I had so much fun watching this. I'm probably way overrating it, but I don't care, this was great. A What an awesome run of matches here. Cota is a new JvK hero. Faraon is just great as well."

Awesome, thanks Gregor! I'm looking forward to those Hair matches against Caras and Faraon. I have an Infernales vs Brazos match on my giant list of Satanico matches that youtube says is 11/22/91 I'm hoping maybe the date is wrong and it's actually the 11/29 match you mentioned. Any idea or is there another match from 11/22?

Can anyone provide some matches to seek out from the 90s? When I watched the Satanico/MS-1/Pirata Morgan vs Dandy, Octagon, Konnan match in the Satanico thread I was thinking how the match has two guys I don't like and 4 guys who will probably rank in my top 50. I really like MS-1 but he's the low man right now for me basically because I haven't seen anything from him post 1990. I could see him skyrocketing up my list with more footage.

Satanico, Pirata Morgan, MS-1 vs El Dandy, Konnan, Octagon 11/15/91 One fall match that is a total blast even with Konnan and Octagon involved. Rudo's dominate the first portion of the match. The Infernales do a lot of really fun double/triple team spots with Satanico doing a lot of directing the action. All of the Infernales looked great in this match. Satanico is great cutting off technico hope spots and slowing the match down for bits before picking it back up. Once the technicos take over, the pace quickens and the Infernales are incredible working as bases for the flashy technicos. I think Satanico works extremely well with Octagon here. The audio sucks on this video but you can tell the crowd is going crazy. Really fun match. I shouldn't be so surprised when 4 out of the 6 guys are really great workers. Satanico and Emilio Charles Jr vs Universo 2000 and Mr Niebla Probably the least of the matches I've watched. Not really bad, just kinda "meh." This is a one fall 8 minute match as part of a tournament. I don't know the date(s) or any other participants though. Hooray random matches. Satanico looked the best of anyone in the match. He worked some pretty nice exchanges with Mr Niebla, but really this isn't much of anything.

Satanico, Negro Casas, Emilio Charles Jr vs Hijo del Santo, Ultimo Dragon, Corazon de Leon This was a really good match. Satanico was matched up with Jericho early on and it did not look good. Jericho appeared to get lost and blew a few spots. After that it picked up though. Jericho recovered and hit a bunch of flashy spots and posed a lot. When Satanico was matched up with Ultimo Dragon they had a breathtaking exchange. This match was all about Santo vs Casas so it is worth watching. Satanico has a very good performance in this match. Allowing it to be about Santo vs Casas but still doing little things to add to their story like running in to attack Santo any time he gets an advantage so Casas can continue brutally kicking him in the face. Seriously Casas throws some fucking nasty kicks to Santo's face/head. Really brutal match. Definitely worth watching for Santo/Casas and for a very nice supporing performance from Satanico. Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr, Rey Bucanero vs Dr Wagner Jr, Black Warrior, Apolo Dantes This was a one fall match that was pretty much a workrate sprint. Satanico is easily the star of the match. He pairs up with Dr Wagner Jr and they have a very good opening mat work exchange. It isn't Blue Panther vs Santo level but very good and fluid. When the match picks up Satanico cuts a fast pace and really dominates Wagner Jr. Satanico hits his senton off the apron which is one of my favorite spots. Not as good overall as the previous match but Satanico takes a bigger role in this one.

I really had guys like Steamer and Martel in mind. Not sure how to word it. Jim Brunzell would be another one. Tito. Anyone who does a lot of arm drags, drop kicks and fiery comebacks. "Working babyface"? "blowjob babyface"? "Good-looking babyface"? Just that the older generation of babyfaces like, say, Johnny Weaver didn't seem to work like that. I guess we have a gap where so little of the 60s is on tape. But seems to me that Brisco is to those faces what Ray Stevens is to the big bumping heels like Flair. The Ray Stevens anaolgy totally puts that comment into perspective for me. Completely get what you're saying now. I see the phrase "80s NWA Babyface" and my brain goes DUSTY. Thanks for clearing that up. Back to why Brisco is so awesome now. Loss posted a really good Brisco vs Jumbo match from 76, and here's part 1 of another from 74 with a really young Jumbo you should watch if you haven't yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgUYaH7kKLg

I agree with you there Loss. Bret definitely was. But do you think it would be fair to say Bret Hart was presented on commentary and by the promotion as an "old school" or "throwback" style wrestler? Was he part of the "New Generation?" (not trying to be a dick, I haven't watched that stuff in a long time and I know you have recently so I figure you'll have a better feel to it). Bringing it back to Jack Brisco, I guess I'm not really seeing how he "invented 80s NWA babyface" when the major babyface stars of the 80s NWA didn't work at all like him. Nor do I think "exaggerated limb work"and "desperation selling" are ideas invented by or unique to Jack Brisco.

I love Jack Brisco but I don't really see how he "invented 80s NWA babyfaces." Did Dusty Rhodes work at all like Jack Brisco? The Road Warriors? Exaggerated limb work and desperation selling aren't qualities unique to Jack Brisco. He was just really good at it. I agree Brisco was awesome and a master of his style. But it was a style of work that became passe' during the 80s.

Since this was me, I figured instead of bombarding OJ's PM with questions I'd ask them here and see if anyone else has info to add. First, I agree about waiting for other Lucha guys to go in first before making any sort of push for him. Would you say Chicana is the best candidate from the late 70s-early 80s Mexico not already in or on the ballot (this was Villano III's peak as well right?), or would it be someone like Fishman or someone else even? In the Lucha History lessons you said "It was either a talent sharing arrangement between EMLL and the UWA or Chicana was working as an independent, but in any event he was everywhere in the early 80s." What other major stars bounced back and forth or seemingly worked as an independent like this? When would you say is Chicana's peak as a star? I guess when would the bulk of his HOF case take place? I assume it wouldn't start any earlier than the 44th anniversary show in 1976, but how far into the 80s would it go? Obviously at least to 1984 when CMLL ran the Chicana/MS-1 match for the second straight year at the anniversary show. Who else from the late 70s/early 80s would be the top candidates from Lucha?

Hey Parv, you may have talked about it somewhere already and if so sorry for asking, but have you watched the Destroyer vs GIant Baba 60 minute draw from 1969 yet? Based on your remarks about Baba and the "superb counter wrestling....intricate limb work" part of the Dory section, I feel like that match would be right up your alley.