elliott

Before getting into the Disc 5 comments, I just wanted to say that I cannot watch a Lucha match in 2014 and hear "Segunda Caida" without thinking of Phil Schneider. That is some really great passive advertising, Phil. DISC 5 El Solitario vs. Dr. Wagner (Mask vs. Mask) (12/1/85) Really awesome to have this match available even if it is clipped. This starts with them going back and forth with arm drags and mat work with the occasional punch thrown in as well. It is Mask vs Mask but in a lot of ways it feels like a rougher than usual Title match than a wager match. Solitario accidentally splashes the ref from the 2nd turnbuckle in a fun spot. Solitario takes a quick first fall with a sunset flip. 2nd fall starts with Wagner taking over with punches and a double arm suplex. Solitario is able to regain control by reversing an Irish whip in the corner and following it up with the Buddy Rose side back breaker. Wagner takes back over and more clips to Wagner being totally in control. Ripping at Solitario’s mask, posting him and hitting him with a chair. Solitario blades and this has become the hate filled brawl you expect. Wagner continues to dominate in the ring focusing on the cut with kicks, punches, turnbuckle smashes, etc. Wagner takes the 2nd fall with a doublearm suplex and submission. Wagner continues to beat on Solitario in between falls as the crowd goes crazy. 3rd fall starts with Wagner still taking it to Solitario beating him up outside the ring then getting back in and dancing around the ring. Wagner uses an ab stretch and grabs the rope with his free hand. Solitario starts to mount a comeback finally getting a big right in and ripping Wagner’s mask then slamming him on the floor. More clips with Wagner gaining the momentum again. Both guys are taking turns going on runs of punching each other in the face going for pins, ripping masks, etc. Great nearfallwhere Wagner hits a backdrop but Solitario holds on for a sunset flip. This is very dramatic down the stretch as they are trying to put each other away and Wagner has a noticeable advantage and Solitario is going for more desperate submission and pin attempts. Solitario finally takes this when he reverses a monkey flip attempt by dropping down and pinning Wagner. This is really good spectacle match. It is two really old dudes at the end of their career so it isn’t as athletic or flashy as practically everything else on here. The work was good and it was a major match. Cool to have it but realistically it isn’t a top 70 candidate. Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo (Hair vs. Hair) (2/28/86) This one though…This is one of my absolute favorite matches and I think it is one of the very best matches I have ever seen. I loved it the first time I saw it and this is the one match I keep watching on the set to see if I’m overrating it and every time I watch it I think it is a classic match. I didn’t know until after maybe the 3rd time I watched it that Sangre said this match was the highlight of his career (thanks OJ!), which only deepened my love of the match and the participants. I said before that the most exciting spot in the history of wrestling is Sangre Chicana ducking a punch and hitting MS-1 with a punch in their 83 match. Well the 2nd most exciting spot in history is Perro Aguayo charging across the ring at the start of the match. This starts off furiously with both guys brawling all around ring side. This is a handheld but it is perfect. I love the post where Sangre is refusing to get back in the ring and demanding Perro come out and fight him. This is just a totally wild scene with brawling in the crowd, postings, blood, selling, awesome punches, topes, more blood, more punches, near falls, more blood, more topes, more great selling, an insanely hot crowd, etc etc etc. I would understand if people don’t like the stuff with the ref. I get it. But it just doesn’t hurt this for me at all. It kinda did the first time around but now it doesn’t. The performances from both guys, the atmosphere of the match, just everything so far outweigh the rudo ref antics that I just don’t care at all. All time classic. Lizmark, Alfonso Dantes y Tony Salazar vs. El Signo, El Texano y Negro Navarro) (8/15/86) Cool to see the Death Missionaries. They get the jump on the technico team right at the bell. So this starts with brawling. It is pretty uninspired and lifeless compared to a lot of the brawling we’ve seen so far. They take a quick first fall using double and triple teams. Rudo’s continue to dominate early in the 2nd fall with punching, whips to the corner, double teams, headbutts, etc. It is perfectly acceptable but also seems kind of run of the mill. Its hard to say because I’m mostly comparing them to the Infernales in my mind and the Infernales were so much more explosive and charismatic. It is unfair to base that off one match, but that’s all I have so far. I will say I think they look very good on defense bumping and feeding the flashy technico offense. Technico’s take the 2nd fall. 3rd fall starts with Lizmark on fire and all 3 Death Missionaries bumping all over the place for him and bumping into each other. Really great sequence and they looked awesome. Match kind of grinds to a halt for me as the Death Missionaries take back over with some more brawling that just isn’t very good compared to all the other stuff on this set (to be fair it is following an all time great brawl). Lizmark hits a really pretty dive but the technico’s lose when Tony Salazar goes low. I really didn’t like this. There were a few nice spots here and there but this would be a bottom 5 match so far probably. I didn’t think the Death Missionaries were very impressive at all. I get why this made the set but it didn’t grab me the way almost everything else on this is. Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Mascara Ano 2000 (8/15/86) I love Rayo’s little dance. This had some very solid back and forth exchanges and trading of holds. Crowd is definitely hot for this. There are some moments that aren’t very smooth and look like there may have been some miscommunication but it isn’t too bad and most of this is actually very enjoyable. Rayo takes the first fall. He continues to dominate at the start of the 2nd. Mascara eventually takes over and beats the crap out of Rayo before taking the fall with a submission. Crowd is pissed as Mascara Ano is crazy over as a rudo. Rayo hits a 2nd rope tope on a charging Ano to start the 3rd fall. Rayo takes over with his headbutts based offense. Ano manages to backdrop him out of the ring and follows it up with a huge tope to the floor. Really great sequence. They make it back into the ring and have another back and forth segment before Rayo armdrags Ano out of the ring and gets a tope of his own. This match was good but has really picked up a notch in the 3rd fall. All the nearfalls are crazy dramatic. The crowd is great in this. Rayo hits a terrifc cross body block off the top to the floor. Rayo falls trying to make it back into the ring in a great spot which the crowd goes crazy for. Rayo goes for a tope in the ring but hits the turnbuckle for a nice near fall and giving Ano the advantage. But Ano misses a dive off the top for another great nearfall. Great spot where Ano counters a Rayo armdrag with an ab stretch. He and the crowd thought it was over. He lets Rayo go and starts to celebrate. This gives Rayo the opening to take over and take the match with a tombstone piledriver. Crowd goes crazy at the finish. Excellent match. I was not looking forward to this the first time I watched the set. I liked it a lot then but kinda figured I had overrated it because I had liked everything so far. I still really liked this a lot. 2 guys who had the bad worker label for years and years but ended up having a great match. La Fiera vs. Babyface (8/15/86) Fiera’s right shoulder is taped. This starts off fast with Baby Face attacking Fiera at the bell. Some really nice lariats and a backdrop. Fiera’s spin kick is really hit or miss for me but it looks awesome here in the first fall. Same with his enzugiri’s. Fiera takes a quick first fall with a dropkick from the top. Fiera continues to beat up Babyface. He drapes him over the side of the ring and slams his face into the side. 2nd fall starts with Baby Face bleeding profusely and Fiera starts working over the cut with biting, elbows, punching, etc. Babyface starts to a comeback after Fiera attempts to put an ab stretch on but hurts his already hurt shoulder. Babyface starts to work over his shoulder and puts Fiera away with a submission. Babyface refuses to break it after Fiera has submitted. In between falls Babyface smashes Fiera into the turnbuckle and Fiera takes a Flair bump all the way down to the floor. Next time we see him, Fiera is bleeding. Babyface posts Fiera as he tries to get back in the ring. Fiera’s selling is really good in this. Babyface really takes over with punches, headbutts, kicks, etc. He eventually goes back to Fiera’s arm. Fiera attempts to make a comeback but his arm is too fucked up. Great spot where Babyface grabs Fiera by the feet and just dumps him headfirst outside the ring. Oh I should mention that Babyface’s Bionic Elbows are phenomenal. Fiera managed to drag Babyface outside and nail him with some headbutts because his arm is so fucked. They get back in the ring and Fiera hits him with a great looking spin kick. Unfortunately his momentum stops when he goes face first on a splash attempt from the 2nd rope as Babyface moves. Fiera manages to take back over using his spin kick though sending Babyface oto the outside. Fiera then hits a crazy dive over the top rope to the floor. Fiera goes for a cross body block from the apron to the floor but this time he misses. Really great nearfall by countout off the miss. Babyface tries to suplex him back in but Fiera reverses it and hits a backdrop suplex for a great near fall. Babyface takes back over with a subtle foul but Fiera manages a victory roll and grabs the ropes for the pinfall in a bit of revenge. Great fucking match. All the blood, violence, crazy bumps and high spots you could hope for with some really good limbwork and selling of the limb work which isn’t something you see a lot of on this set. This is probably a top 15 contender which is huge praise on this set. Espanto Jr. vs El Hijo Del Santo (Mask vs. Mask) (8/31/86) This starts with some really good back and forth exchanges. It almost feels more like a rough title match than a wager match which I like because the Santo mask is the ultimate title in lucha. Espanto mostly dominates this to start and he is very aggressive but he’s using a lot of moves he’s not really kicking and punching. He is just constantly on top of Santo not letting up. Santo is eventually able to get some air and hits an armdrag and beautiful rana before going to the well one too many times and taking the fall on a great submission. One of the things I love about Lucha is that there isn’t a guard rail separating the fans from the ringside. So between falls there are all these little kids walking up and patting Santo on the back and offering encouragement. That is so fucking cool. 2nd fall starts and Espanto is right back on top of Santo. Espanto starts to get a little rougher using backbreakers and pulling Santo up by the mask and throwing knees to the back. He keeps trying submissions and roll ups but Santo finds a way to escape. Espanto continues to dominate Santo and eventually starts ripping at the mask. Santo is able to make a comeback with his great knee lifts, backdrops and a huge dive. Santo ends up taking the fall with a senton. 3rd fall starts with Santo dominating. He hits a bulldog and goes for a 2nd but Espanto manages to reverse it. He snapmares Santo out of the ring and follows him out to post him,. Espanto starts wacking Santo with a chair before tossing him back in the ring. Santo is busted open and Espanto immediately starts biting and chewing on the cut while the crowd goes crazy. Santo is finally able to make a comeback on a missed senton by Espanto and Santo immediately starts ripping at the mask. Santo posts Espanto as well. Espanto hits a great tope later on and then we get a camera cut to both guys sellingon the floor and Espanto is just covered in blood. Santo tosses Espanto to the outside and hits a dive off the top. Back in the ring after a cut and Espanto misses a splash off the top. Santo moves out of the way and locks in the camel clutch for the win. Santo celebrates by jumping for joy. Great great great match. This disappointed me the first time around honestly. I watched it a second time and liked it more but wasn’t seeing the all time classic everyone always talks about. This time it really hit me and is a definite top 5 contender. Tremendous match. Ringo Mendoza, Atlantis y Ultraman vs. Satanico, Masakre y MS-1, (September 1986) I love that babyface team. I don’t remember what I thought about this on my first run through but that is a babyface dream team for me and the Infernales are the Infernales so this should be good. Satanico starts with Ringo Mendoza. We get some nice back and forth mat work between them that includes a great spot where Ringo stands Satanico up on his head. Satanico gets out of the ring and we get an Atlantis vs MS-1 matchup. More good back and forth mat work. Not quite at Satanico vs RIngo levels but it is very good. Ultraman and Masakre get in and have a really fast back and forth exchange which Ultraman gets the better of. Ringo and Satanico quickly get back in and have another great back and forth with Satanico bumping all over the place. More Atlantis vs MS-1 and more rope running back and forth that ends with Atlantis sending MS-1 to the outside. Ringo reverses an armdrag by Satanico into an abstretch and Atlantis comes over the top of them with a dive onto MS-1. Technico’s end up taking a spectacular first fall. 2nd fall starts with Atlantis and Masakre paired off. Nice back and forth with Masakre continually thinking he has the advantage only for Atlantis to come right back with a reversal. MS-1 and ULtraman get in and MS-1 starts in with punching. But ultraman is able to use his superior athleticism to quickly come back. Ringo and Satanico come in and work the same format of Satanico having brief control only for RIngo to come back right away. Satanico’s slamming the mat in frustration is great. Finally the rudo’s are able to get the advantage on Atlantis using double and triple teams in the corner. Ringo comes in when Atlantis is knocked to the outside and Ringo suffers the same fate. Rudo’s are able to take the fall using double teams and submissions. 3rd fall starts with Ultraman stuck in the rudo corner. MS-1 hits a great jumping knee to send him to the outside. Atlantis runs in and gets caught and Ringo does the same. Rudo’s are firmly in control triple teaming Ringo. Satanico is awesome in trios matches waiting for the technico to turn their back so he can run in and attack them from behind. Momentum shifts to the technico side as Ringo wins a punching exchange with Satanico as Masakre is posted on the outside by Ultraman. Ringo makes the mistake of trying to submt an Infernale when MS-1 comes in and punches him in the face. He takes over for a bit before Atlantis makes the save for Ringo and takes over. He makes the same submission attempt mistake though and Masakre comes in to take over but HE makes the same mistake as well and Ultraman comes in. Ultraman takes over and you guessed it, tries for a submission. This time both Satanico and MS-1 come in to attack. They isolate Atlantis and attempt to unmask him. Great spot where the technicos each get some 1 against 3 action and run away from the rudos. Atlantis unfortunately gets caught and pays the price getting double teamed so more. Ringo and Ultraman come back in and try to fight back but at this point it is 3 on 2 and they eventually fall to the numbers. The Infernales take the fall and the match. This was excellent. Everyone looked really good in this and it was full of great spots. Pirata Morgan comes out after the match to brawl with Satanico in a wild scene. Pirata Morgan, BabyFace y Cien Caras vs. La Fiera, Lizmark y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. (September 1986) This starts with Babyface attacking Fiera right away and posting him while Caras goes after Rayo in the ring. Fiera is busted open in the opening seconds. Pirata Morgan immediately starts biting Fiera’s cut wen he gets the chance. This is just an out of control brawl all from the very start. Babyface works over Fiera with biting, knees to the face, headbutts, etc. Their feud has been wonderful. Back in the ring we see Lizmark getting double teamed by Caras and Morgan. Fiera takes a great Flair bump to the floor off a 2nd rope turnbuckle smash from Babyface. Rudo’s end up taking the first fall. 2nd fall starts with Babyface against Rayo and Rayo gets jumped from behind by Morgan. Great closeup on Babyface’s leg covered with Fiera’s blood. Pirata offers Lizmark a free shot which allows Babyface to sneak up behind him when Lizmark hesitates. Pirata takes over and starts working over Lizmark. Fiera gets in the ring and he is great stumbling around selling the beating he has taken but still demanding Babyface come in and face him. Unfortunately he is took weak and the rudo’s are too mean as Caras sneaks in and attacks him. Fiera gets sent to the outside and Rayo comes in to face Caras. Crowd is pretty stoked for this. They have a fast back and forth that ends with Caras taking a huge bump over the top rope. Babyfae and Fiera come in to continue their feud and Fiera gets the advantage finally sending Babyface to the outside with a spin kick. Lizmark hits a beautiful dive off the top onto Pirata and goes for a submission in the corner while Rayo comes over the top with a dive onto Caras. The rudo’s are pinned as Babyface bails out to get away from Fiera. Fiera goes after him on the outside and nails a great looking spinkick. 3rd fall starts with Babyface refusing to get into the ring against Fiera so Fiera absolutely nails him with an enzugiri. Brawl all over ringside with technico’s taking the advantage finally. Caras and Morgan get left laying on the outside while Fiera is inside the ring biting the shit out of the now bleeding Babyface. Fiera hits a great bionic elbow off the 2nd rope and continues to work the cut with punching. Babyface is awesome selling the beating he is taking from Fiera. Rayo tosses Pirata outside the ring over the top and then nails a cross body from the top in a terrific spot. Fiera airballs a huge dropkick from the top onto Babyface who then hits and elbow and takes the fall as Caras submits Lizmark giving the rudo’s the match. This was terrific. It was really a match to advance the awesome Fiera vs Babyface feud. Great selling and violence in this. Another terrific match. Americo Rocca, Cacharro Mendoza y Kung Fu vs. El Talisman, El Dandy y Guerrero Negro (September 1986) This starts with Kung Fu threatening the rudo’s with his nunchucks much to the delight of the crowd. He offers one to Talisman who is much slower and worse with them than Kung Fu. He manages to hit Guerrero Negro with them. Good comedy to start. Rocca and Guerrero get in and we get some nice back and forth mat work. Dandy and Kung Fu pair off for their own section and it is ok. It feels pretty basic but it is good. Talisman and Mendoza come in and work a little bit faster paced back and forth mat exchange and it is honestly more fluid and exciting than Dandy’s. Really awesome sequence when Rocca and Dandy pair off that ends with Rocca sending all the rudo’s to the outside one by one culminating with him victory rolling Negro to the outside. Kung Fu comes in and the rudo’s are great feeding him spots and taking all the karate stuff. Really awesome extended rudo miscommunication spot that has them running into each other over and over again based around Mendoza. Technico’s take the first fall. Excellent first fall. Rocca and Guerrero Negro pair off to start the 2nd and Rocca is just awesome hitting all sorts of head scissors take downs and arm drags from out of nowhere. Really fun stuff. Mendoza and Talisman come in and work a really fun short sequence before Talisman is all “enough is enough” and bails out. Dandy and Kung Fu come in and work a really fast back and forth that ends with Dandy getting punched in the mouth. Rudo’s end up taking over using brawling double teaming rudo tactics. Talisman subtlely fouls Mendoza and gets the pin as the rudo’s take the 2nd fall. 3rd fall starts with Rocca getting triple teamed by the rudos. Technico’s are finally able to mount a comeback leading to Negro and Rocca squaring off. Rocca gives him a huge slap and then starts kicking the crap out of him. Great dual topes by Kung Fu and Rocca. Mendoza and Talisman work a nice back and forth in the ring before Mendoza just blasts Talisman in the nuts giving the rudo’s the match. That kinda came out of nowhere. This was yet another excellent match. Not one of the very best trios on the set so far but definitely an excellent match. More straightforward mat work early on than the more recent trios before exploding into more of a fight near the end of the match. I have to say El Dandy hasn’t blown me away just yet. He is very very good but the top 10 all time contender doesn’t start showing up till later in the set. Discs 5 Overall Thoughts Another great disc. Of the 5 singles matches on the disc, one is a candidate for best match I’ve ever seen, another is a top 5 candidate, and a 3rd is a top 15 contender, the 4th is a great match between two guys who have historically been shit on by smart fans, and the 5th is one of the biggest matches of the 80s between two legends and is also a damn good match. The trios matches on this set are mostly great. The only match disappointing from a work standpoint is the long Death Missionaries match but you can’t really complain because we have such little footage of them that it is still cool to have a long example of their work. Disc 3 might be hard to top but this was damn great. That Perro vs Sangre match is just perfect.

I just taught myself how to do spoiler tags (it was easy, oops) so I went back and edited all my posts to make this thread more readable. Sorry it took so long.

"And they just...make an ice cream sandwich out of Jim Brunzell." -Rodger Kent High Flyers vs Blackwell and Big John Studd 2/20/81

I love the DDP match and Goldberg killing jobbers is a total blast. I would have zero problem with Goldberg showing up on someone's list as "greatest jobber match wrestler ever." My vote goes to Buzz Sawyer. But yeah, Goldberg is definitely up there.

DISC 4 Javier Cruz vs. El Dandy (Hair vs. Hair) (10/26/84) Starts with Cruz attacking Dandy before either guy can even get their jackets off. Once they settle in and start the match proper after ring introductions, Dandy takes over with kicks and his great punches. Cruz gets a few shots in here and there including a backdrop but Dandy mostly controls. He posts Cruz a couple of times. Cruz hits a beautiful tope off the top rope and ends up taking the first fall with a surprise submission that Dandy sells the crap out of. Short but fun first fall. Cruz takes control at the beginning of the 2nd fall with punches and smashing Dandy into the turnbuckle. Dandy is a really great bumper and really smooth already. Dandy manages to nail Cruz with a clothesline to get an opening and he takes over. Cruz is selling the neck/back of the head big time. Dandy plants him some nasty looking ddt’s. He picks up Cruz’s shoulders on a 2 count to piss off the crowd. He starts biting Cruz in the face and just continues to dominate. Dandy finally puts Cruz away with a submission to take the 2nd fall. 3rd fall starts with Cruz having recovered enough that he’s fired up and ready to fight so Dandy backs up and gets out on the apron so he can stall for more time. He’s able to distract Cruz and sneak in a hard right and starts biting. But Cruz is able to fight back with punches of his own. Nice series of nearfalls on roll up pin attempts and counters to them. Dandy hits a beautiful dive from the top rope to the floor and Cruz hits a tope through the ropes. Both guys get counted out and Dandy jumped up and started kicking the shit out of Cruz. This fell flat for me. It lacked the intensity of your typical hair vs hair match. Cruz is a 4 year vet here and Dandy debuted 3 years earlier. I should have looked that up before watching this because by the end I was thinking this felt like a match between 2 young guys who are clearly talented but haven’t figured it all out yet. Dandy’s selling was hit or miss in this. It is good and definitely worth watching but it won’t be as high as the Dandy to come later. Gran Cochise, Villano III y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Fishman, Mocho Cota y Tony Bennetto (11/30/84) Mocho Cota’s hair makes this a 5 star match no matter what happens. It is Andre the Giant’s afro on a guy 2/3 the size of Andre. Cool to see Fishman. Rudos take out Villano and Rayo to start so they can triple team Cochise in the ring. They work him over for a while before he gets clotheslined out of the ring so Villano gets in only to find 3 rudos waiting for him. Villano get’s clotheslined out of the ring after some triple teams and then Rayo gets in to meet the same fate as his partners. Technico’s manage to make a comeback to stop the rudo triple teaming madness. Mocha Cota winds up alone in the ring with Cochise and takes a backdrop out of the ring. Rayo and Bennetto pair up and have a nice rope running back and foth arm draggy exchange before Bennetto bumps out of the ring. Fishman shows himself to be the spirit guide of Fuerza Guerrera by tripping on his way into the ring like a goof. He lulls Villano into a false sense of security and then punches him in the face. Villano takes over quickly and they have a nice back and forth exchange. The rudo’s take the first fall when Villano and Rayo pin Fishman and Bennetto while Cochise takes Cota at bay. That’s a singles feud I want to see really badly. In between falls Cochise/Cota and Villano/Fishman are talking crap and about to get into it. 2nd fall starts with all 6 guys brawling outside the ring with the technico’s dominating. Great spot where cota is ducking down trying to sneak up on Cochise on the outside and Cochise catches his foot when Cota tries to kick him much to the crowd’s delight. Inside the ring the rudo’s are still dominating with double teams and brawling tactics. Rudo’s take the fall when Fishman hits a beautiful splash off the top onto Villano III. 3rd fall starts with rudo’s still dominating the match. Awesome double team where Bennetto puts Cochise in a fireman’s carry while Cota is kneeling down in front of them and Cochise just tosses Bennetto onto Cota’s knee. Crowd goes crazy as the technico’s start to make their comeback. Cota gets isolated and Cochisse starts biting the shit out of him while Villano and Rayo keep the others at bay. Cota gets busted open. Triple sunset flips by the technicos for a nearfall. Cota takes a monkey flip to the outside onto Bennetto and Fishman and Rayo and Villano follow it up with double topes in a great spot. Cota gets back in the ring and we get him and Cochise one on one going back and forth. It is really good back and forth stuff before Cochise puts Cota away for the win. This was an awesome match. Great brawling, wrestling, some spectacular dives, blood. Mocho Cota’s afro and mustache situation. Just great fun all around. Sangre Chicana vs. Villano III (12/7/84) Starts with Chicana in the ring signing autographs but he stops so he can meet Villano at ringside so they can try and throw some punches at each other. Back in the ring for intros and crowd is hot as fuck already. Villano gets the jump on Sangre when he turns his back and takes over with punching and this spills to the outside. Villano smashes Chicana into the apron and posts him before getting back in the ring for some gloating. Villano goes back outside to continue dishing out the punishment. Villano gets back in the ring and we get a good shot of Chicana covered in blood like 3 minutes into the match. Villano gets right on the cut with some biting and he does the great spot where he spits Chicana’s blood up into the air. Sangre’s selling of the beating is as awesome as it usually is. He is easily one of the best sellers in history. Villano takes the first fall after a top rope senton. Villano continues biting Chicana’s forehead and spitting blood at the start of the 2nd. Villano plants Chicana on the outside with a ddt and continues gloating and playing to the crowd while Sangre is outside selling. Chicana makes it back in the ring but Villano stays on top of him with more biting, kicks, and submission attempts. Sangre finally manages to get some offense in when he reverses an irish whip to the corner, lands a HUGE right hand which sends Villano to the outside and Sangre follows it up with one of the single greatest tope’s in wrestling history. Just completely spectacular. As fast and violent a dive as you will ever see. Sangre takes the fall by countout after dragging himself back into the ring. Next we see Villano covered in blood and Sangre attempting to rip his mask off. Eventually Sangre gets it off and tosses it in the crowd. Villano fouls Sangre and the ref calls off the match awarding it to Villano III. Both guys are just covered in blood. This was well on it’s way to being an all time classic and a third fall would have gotten it there. What we have is great but it is definitely incomplete. Nonetheless, I absolutely loved this and wish there was a wager match between the two. Raul Reyes Jr. & Climax vs. Mocho Cota & Loco Zavala (Sonora 1985) (Youtube) Cota is rocking the afro but it isn’t as epic as the last time we saw it. Reyes and Zavala start but Reyes is demanding Cota get in the ring. After some deliberation, Cota gets in the ring. We get some really beautiful back and forth mat work. Both gys look spectacular. Cota goes to the outside so Zavala can get in with Climax but Reyes still wants him. Cota does not oblige. This has the wonderful spot where Zavala picks Climax up and just tosses him into the turnbuckle. Climax takes over with some dropkicks sending Zavala to the outside bringing Cota in for some heel applause. We get a little bit more of Cota vs Reyes before Cota bails out again which pisses off both Reyes and the crowd. This time Cota is like “ok you want me to wrestle this fucker, I will.” Cota gets back in and hits a hip toss and gives the crowd a look like “SEE!” before going for another that gets reversed into an armdrag. Cota follows up with a little roughhouse tactics with a running knee. Reyes gets him back with a clothesline putting Cota down much to the delight of the crowd. Great little sequence with Cota being cocky and getting out wrestled. We get more Zavala vs Climax and Zavala is a fucking blast as the fat dude tossing around and then bumping for the skinny little dude. We get some really fast Cota vs Climax exchanges before Cota bails out. Zavala takes the advantage on Reyes with punching. Cota comes in and continues and hits a knee sending Reyes out. Tremendous end to the first fall when Zavala catches Climax coming off the top, slams him, and then looks up and eats a cross body from Reyes off the top. Reyes and Cota talk shit at ringside in between falls with Cota trying to antagonize Reyes into a fight. Really great rudo work by Cota daring Reyes to hit him, with his hands behind his back, running away and diving over the top Bobby Heenan style to get away from him. This gets the crowd really worked up. We settle back into the match with Cota controlling Reyes with punches after a cheapshot. Rudo’s dominate with double teams and punching before taking the fall with a 2nd rope senton from Cota on Reyes and a submission on Climax. 3rd fall starts with Climax dead in the center of the ring. Cota drags him to his feet for a suplex. Climax is knocked out of the ring and Reyes comes in and gets double teamed by the rudos. Cota tries to put him away with a boston crab. Climax tries to come in for the save but is basically overpowered by the ref before getting away and making the save. Reyes takes over on Cota and gets some payback firing punches into Cota’s scummy face. All 4 guys take turns trying submissions, making saves for their partner, and throwing some punches. Finally it ends up with Cota vs Reyes again and they go after each other with the crowd going crazy. Rudo’s manage a double team and go for a submission but Climax goes in for the save. Technico’s go for a double charging headbutt but get reversed. Rudo’s take over and put on a totally wacky double submission and take the fall and the match. I liked this so much more the 2nd time around. It is a ton of fun. The first fall in particular is great and I love the Cota/Zavala team. Reyes Jr worked some really great mat exchanges with Cota in the first fall. Atlantis vs. El Faraón (3/22/85) This is another title match. El Faraon reminds me of Jumbo Tsuruta for some reason. This starts off with your typical mat work for a title match. The picture quality on this 30 year old wrestling match from Mexico is incredible by the way. Especially when I think back to getting what were probably 10th generation (at best) vhs tapes for $35 back in the day. Anways, both guys are looking good early. It isn’t spectacular but it is solid slow paced back and forth mat work. What is up with the random loud blasts that sound like a freaking cannon being fired in the arena that happen from time to time in matches? It’s weird. Faraon really takes over planting Atlantis with a few spinebusters before tying him up and taking the first fall via submission. 2nd fall starts with Faraon hitting some big clotheslines and Atlantis selling them like he gets killed. Faraon goes to the well once to often and Atlantis gets an armdrag to start his comeback. Atlantis starts working over Faraon’s arm. He does some nice stuff, arm wringers, arm breakers, turnbuckle smashes, etc. Faraon is doing a good job selling it. Eventually Faraon bails out of the ring which gets a nice reaction from the crowd. Faraon gets back in the ring but Atlantis continues the arm work. Atlantis gets a little overzealous which gives Faron an opening and he hits some great clotheslines. He goes for a 2nd rope senton but misses which allows Atlantis to take back over. Atlantis hits a few back breakers and then takes the fall with a submission. 3rd fall starts with Atlantis hitting some running topes and then whiffing on the 3rd and getting his fac slammed into the turnbuckle. Faraon takes over hitting a ddt and a neckbreaker while going for some pins and submissions as well. Atlantis manages a counter into his own submission attempt that gets broken up when both guys end up with their shoulders down and they’re forced to kick out. Faraon uses this for an opening. He press slams Atlantis off the 2nd rope and tries for more submissions and hits another neck breaker. Atlantis makes a comeback using a backdrop and a dropkick to knock Faraon too the floor then Atlantis follows it up with a tope in a great series of spots. They make it back to the ring and Atlantis plants Faraon with some dropkicks and running topes for near falls. Atlantis tries over and over to put Faraon away with a series of funky roll up pin attempts. Faraon eats another dropkick sending him to the floor and Atlantis blasts him with another tope and then follows that up with a plancha. Atlantis is really pulling out everything he can here. Faraon makes it back in the ring first and thinks he’s won by countout but Atlantis made it back in time and puts Faraon away with a victory roll to win the match. This was very good. It isn’t one of the higher end singles matches on the set so far but it is still a very good match with the final fall being really good as Atlantis tries everything he can before pulling the match out over his veteran opponent. Good stuff. La Fiera, El Faraón y El Egipico vs. MS-1, Satanico y Pirata Morgan (3/29/85) Crowd is super hot for this as Fiera’s team is just taking it to the Infernales from the start. Guys are brawling all over ringside in this. Satanico is great trying to fire back but getting overwhelmed by double teams. Satanico manages to back faraon up to his corner so the Infernales can get some double team work of their own. Great kicks and punches all around in this. Faraon gets isolated and worked over and Fiera keeps trying to come in and help but Satanico always positions Faraon between him and Fiera whenever he tries. Infernale manage to put Faraon away with a series of elbows. Fiera finally gets his chance but he’s put away easily by the MS-1/PIrata double teams with Satanico directing traffic. Egipico wants some too but it works out poorly as you would imagine. He is literally kicked into submission and then stomped by all 3 guys after the match. 2nd fall starts with Satanico exploding after Faraon and Egipico is continued to get worked over. Faraon manages to make a comeback with the help of Fiera. Satanico is great selling on the ropes. The technicos get their payback punching and kicking the Infernales. Fiera hits his spinkicks and hits a great knee drop on MS-1 before making him submit. Pirata Morgan takes a running dive into the post while brawling on the outside with Fiera as Satanico is getting double teamed inside the ring. Pirata Morgan is tossed through the boards on ringside while Satanico eats a 2nd rope senton in the ring. 3rd fall starts with everyone brawling in the ring. These guys are just going back and forth killing each other with punches, clotheslines, kicks, chokes, etc. Really intense brawling. Faraon hits a great tope and then Fiera just kills himself attempting a dive on Satanico from the top rope to the floor. Seriously. How did he survive that?! Egipcio ends up putting Pirata Morgan away with a powerbomb to a huge pop while everyone else is counted out. Really hot ending and everyone looked excellent. Great brawling match. Americo Rocca vs. El Talisman (3/29/85) This is a title match. Standard title match beginning with both guys cautious to lock up at first. Eventually they do and we get the back and forth exchanging of holds that all of these matches start with. It is good. stuff Not nearly on the level of the Cota/Rocca matches but both guys still look good. Especially as they approach the finish of the first fall which Rocca takes with a roll up. Talisman takes over the 2nd fall with 2 dropkicks and goes for a big headlock take over but Rocca reverses it into the Buddy Rose backbreaker in an awesome spot. This is really short and Talisman quickly regains the advantage and takes the 2nd fall with a submission. Talisman maintains the advantage at the start of the 3rd fall with some hiptosses and submission attempts. Rocca is really good selling and figuring out counters and sneaking in roll up attempts. They execute the slowest and crappiest hurricanrana probably ever. Talisman sends Rocca to the outside and hits a tope. Rocca manages to make it back in the ring first and he hits Talisman with a plancha. Both guys crawl back in the ring and Rocca maintains the advantage with a bulldog. He goes for a 2nd but gets tossed. Talisman goes for a 2nd rope flipping senton but misses. Rocca manages to take the match with a submission. This was pretty good in general. In the context of this set that is loaded with great matches it isn’t all that good. Too short to really be anything memorable. There were some good moments in the first fall but overall this wasn’t anything to write home about. Probably in the bottom 3 at this point. El Hijo del Santo & Black Shadow Jr. vs. Espanto Jr. & Eskeletor (12/1/85) This match is full of really awesome masks. Black Shadow and Eskeletor start this off. It is pretty decent back and forth mat work. I don’t think either guy looks particularly good. Kinda green looking. Match picks up right away when Santo and Espanto get in the ring. They are really smooth working back and forth exchanges and the crowd is much hotter for their match up, which isn’t all that surprising. Santo was an elite flyer from the very start it looks like. He is really smooth on his arm drags, head scissors take over and the way he moves around the ring. Espanto is fantastic and obviously has a big part in why Santo’s stuff looks so good. Technico’s take the first fall when Santo submits Espanto in the corner while Shadow dives over them onto Eskeletor. I love that spot. Rudo’s dominate the start of the 2nd by isolating Shadow Jr and using puches/kicks/double teams to wear him down. Rudo’s take a short 2nd fall pinning Santo and submitting Shadow Jr. 3rd fall starts with all 4 guys brawling around ringside. They get back in the ring and Santo is double teamed by the rudos. Espanto tries to untie Santo’s mask and pull it off. We get some pretty some pretty intense mask ripping and he is close to getting it off. Crowd is pretty hot for this. The match clips to the rudo’s double teaming Shadow and trying to get his mask off. Santo makes the save and crowd is going totally nuts chanting for him. He gives Espanto two bulldogs and then returns the mask tearing favor. It looks like the technico’s are about to win the match but we get another clip and see the ref raising Espanto’s hand. Not sure what happened. I don’t know how much of this was clipped because there were quite a lot of clips but they seemed short so who knows. This wasn’t great but it was enjoyable to see young Santo and he is always good against Espanto. Eskeletor and Black Shadow didn’t really add much to the match. Their opening segment was pretty pedestrian compared to what we’ve seen on this set so far. You’re really just waiting for Santo and Espanto to square off. Post match shenanigans are fun. Lizmark, Mil Mascaras & Valente Fernandez vs. Sangre Chicana, Angel Blanco & Angel Blanco Jr. (12/1/85) Really cool to see Mil Mascaras in Mexico when all of the Mil matches I have seen were in the US or Japan. Rudos dominate to start by jumping Fernandez. Chicana is great antagonizing and taunting Mil. Crowd is crazy hot for this match. Mil and Angel Blanco work a decent rope running arm draggy sequence. Great spot where Chicana is reaching over the ropes trying to grab Mil from the outside but he whiffs and his momentum carries him over the top rope and into the ring, he looks up at Mil with a look of sheer terror and bails out of the ring. Angel Blanco Jr and Fernandez come in and work some really nice back and forth spots arm draggy spots of their own but work at a much faster pace than the legends and put their younger man flair on the spots. Everything looks really smooth and it ends with Blanco Jr bailing to the outside, Fernandez following him and backdropping him on the floor to the crowd’s delight. Next we see Sangre Chicana slowly strutting his way into the ring to face off against Lizmark. Sangre takes over Lizmark using his friends for double teams but he gets to cocky and starts to taunt Mil again trying to keep Lizmark in between himself and Mil. Mil charges at Sangre who has to bail out of the ring as fast as he can but Mil chases him a bit. Crowd is loving the Mil vs Sangre interactions and they are awesome. Lizmark and Angel Blanco Jr work a really awesome back and forth segment. Then we cut to Chicana and Fernandez slugging it out. First fall ends with the technico’s taking it. We get a clip and we see Sangre and Mil talking shit at ringside and Mil gives Sangre a HUGE atomic drop. Cut to inside the ring and Sangre is getting beat down by Fernandez. Finally Mil casually walks over, stops Fernandez, picks up Chicana, and holds his arms behind his back so Fernandez can get a good shot in. Sangre bails outside and needs a breather. More cuts to these guys brawling all around ringside. Match has a super chaotic feel with the close up hand held camera, wild crowd, and guys brawling all over the place. The old lady taunting Chicana is wonderful and I wish we could have seen the whole interaction. I want to stress yet again that the crowd is going fucking crazy in this. Sangre shows off more of his great punching and even better his “just got punched stumbling wildly around trying not to fall” selling. The Blanco’s eventually isolate Mil and try to rip his mask off. Mil ends up getting his revenge by trying to get Blanco Jr’s mask. He doesn’t get it completely off but in a really great spot Blanco Jr is getting punched back and forth by the technico’s and as he gets hit and stumbles to the next guy he is pulling his mask off and showing his face and then pulling it back down. It makes sense if you see it. It is a great spot. I guess technico’s take 2 straight falls in this unless the entire 2nd fall is clipped. I suspect this ended in 2 falls and we got the majority of it. Whatever it was I fucking loved this. When I saw it on the match listing I thought it would be cool to see Mil in Mexico but it’s kinda late in his career maybe he would just be coasting and if I’m lucky I’ll get some Chicana vs Lizmark action. Well Mil ended up busting his ass and everyone in this looked really good. Chicana was the star of this match like every match. He carries himself as a major deal and the crowd treats him that way. This is one of my absolute favorite matches on the set and could be a contender for my top 10 if I can ever figure out how to rank this set of great match after great match. Disc 4 overall thoughts I think this is the disc where this set becomes just over the top ridiculous. It is probably the 3rd best disc out of 4 and it still has a top 10 contender and multiple additional matches I would call great. Sangre Chicana was the star of the disc for the 2nd time so far. The Villano III match was definitely on it’s way to being a classic before the quick finish and his performance in the trios match really stood out. He reminds me a lot of Riki Choshu so far in that he just has this charisma that makes all of his matches seem like the most important match ever (which probably seems crazy considering it took place on this card). If we had like 15-20 more 80s Sangre Chicana matches where he had performances like he’s had in every single match on the set so far, I would have no problem calling him the best ever. And the Perro match (a very real #1 overall contender match for me) and the Satanico match are yet to come.

When I first saw the title of this thread my brain immediately went "POLICE OFFICER." Or Former Police Officer. I think it would definitely work for all the most obvious reasons. And it is WWE so I feel like Vince has at least thought about it. He gets destroyed by babyface Mark Henry at Mania.

I honestly think you could use a male in the role as an over the top heel feminist character and it would get crazy heat. EDIT: I hadn't read the rest of the thread when I posted and since this was kind of mentioned before, I will expand a little bit. A male can do and say all of those things fakeplastictrees mentioned. But he could be friends with the divas because he "better understands them." He can console them after tough losses etc. BUT he's actually insincere and just trying to get closer to the divas so he can hook up with them. Who wouldn't want to watch that guy get punched in the face?

Right on. I would say that the setup doesn't really bother me but I can see why others might not like it. I would point out that Stone Cold had a signature spot where he would have a guy draped over the middle ropes, run off the opposite ropes, bounce off and then jump on his opponents back. It wasn't the result of a head scissors or rana like with Rey, but it happened. Austin is a brawling ass kicker so he would drag guys there and choke them for a minute before bouncing off the ropes and hitting his spot. Rey would use his superior technique to get guys into that position.

I hated the 619 for all of the reasons ELP is talking about. In like 2002. Now when I watch Rey matches it doesn't bother me at all. It is a signature spot that has always been put over huge by commentators, treated seriously, and was over with the live crowds for a decade. One 5 second spot doesn't take away from the hundreds of good-great Rey WWE matches for me in the slightest. Wrestling is so full of cutsey and illogical spots that it seems like a really ridiculous criticism. If "logic" is so important, every time an Irish Whip happens people must be really pissed off. Within the crazy internal logic of wrestling Irish whips are totally logical. So is the 619. In a sense, the 619 isn't totally illogical as a major kill shot for Rey. He's a tiny underdog that can't lift most guys in the company. Rana's and roll ups aren't going to work against someone like Big Show or Mark Henry or whatever big guy you want to pick. So Rey figured out a way to get these guys down to his level and then blast them in the face with his knees while building momentum running the ropes and then spinning. Seems pretty logical instead of trying to hit hurricanrana's on everybody or winning every match by his opponent slipping on a banana peel. Could they have come up with a better spot or use a better set up? Probably. But it worked. Year after year after year. I'm also not understanding why the Bronco Buster is ok and the 619 isn't. The bronco buster is literally sprinting and jumping balls first and landing on your opponents face. And X-Pac was a great worker for years who got over without using that stupid spot. Cutsey, illogical, and a corporate spot.

Both times watching Cota/Rocca 1 I've thought to myself "that's got to be the best title match on the set. Nothing can top that shit." Both times I got to Satanico vs Cochisse and thought "oh, shit, that was clearly better than Cota/Rocca. Holy fuck!" The only match I could see bumping that one down to #3 is Perro vs Chicana which has blown me out of the water every time I've watched it. I've fallen into a Tommy Rich wormhole the last few days and work is totally insane for me during the holidays but I'm definitely going to finish this again before the New Year as well. Hope to make some major headway this weekend.

I'm about halfway through this. Really good show so far. I was excited to hear both of you speak so positively about Sputnik Monroe. I actually emailed Meltzer asking if he would consider him for the ballot a few months ago highlighting the "positive influence on the business" metric. I started gathering his results from the territories and 70s Memphis. Unfortunately there aren't Memphis results from the 60's online that I can find. Just based on the anecdotes, he seems like a no-brainer candidate. Also agreed 100% about Dave's "controversial" MMA comments.

The super obvious Lucha feuds Santo Jr vs Casas Santo Jr vs Blue Panther Satanico vs El Dandy The two Santo feuds are career long rivalries that produced countless great matches. I don't think the Satanico vs Dandy rivalry was on THAT level, but their feud in 1990 was an all time great run. They began the year teaming a lot and by the end of the year were beating the shit out of each other. They continued to have very good to great matches over the years (including this year) but never reached the level of 1990 again. I have no idea when the Santo Jr vs Casas or Santo vs Panther rivalries peaked. Without thinking too hard I would guess 96/97 for the Casas series and sometime in the early 2000s for the Panther series. But really I would welcome any arguments for any other time period. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 probably deserves a mention even if we only have a handful of matches. I kind of just want to say "That two weeks in 1983." Some other favorite feuds would be... Stan Hansen vs Everyone. Not really, but it is hard to pick one from the Colon, Funk, Kobashi group. Shit I would almost throw the Baba feud in there as well. The Baba feud is more fun while the other 3 produced great match after great match after great match. Ric Flair vs Everyone. Again, not really. But this is unfair. Steamboat is his Santo/Casas or Lawler/Dundee eternal rival so he has to be mentioned. Looking beyond career rivalries and just at specific feuds and angles, Flair vs Funk from 89 is my favorite easily. Followed by the Ricky Morton feud from 86. Both are vicious, hate filled blood feuds but Flair is taking on totally different roles in each one. Everyone talks about heel Flair mostly but I love him as the ass kicking babyface in 1989 against Terry Funk. I could easily mention the Windham, Garvin, Luger, Kerry, and Savage (in 92 AND 95-96) feuds. 4 Horsemen vs Dusty, Midnight Express vs Rock n Roll Express and Freebirds vs Von Erichs just because. Bret Hart vs Steve Austin and America produced two of the best matches in WWE history and a year of some of the most fun promos and TV segments ever. If you want to include managers, Lawler vs Jimmy Hart is the winner.

I came across that the other day on but didn't watch it till just now. There were parts of it I really liked. Especially the 1st fall. But I thought it fell apart in the 2nd fall. It picked back up in the 3rd fall but didn't get back to the level of the 1st fall. Overall pretty disappointing because I thought they were on their way to a great match after the first fall. I love the idea of a Satanico/La Parka team. It makes sense to me that they would team up. I did love the spot in the 2nd fall where La Parka is outside and Satanico is helping him try and dust off the cobwebs but Satanico dusts just a little too hard and La Parka sells it like Satanico is trying to break his neck. Genius. One of my favorite spots in all of wrestling that is super common is when a technico is pinning or submitting a rudo in the corner and another technico dives over them onto a charging rudo. It's all over the 80s set and I love it every single time. They do that here in the first fall and then in the 3rd fall they try it again and Satanico just casually walks away from Santo's dive attempt like "I have seen that spot 10,000 times and I am NOT falling for it this time." Satanico did a good job with Octagon in the first fall. Leading him through some good mat exchanges and then doing a great job eating all of Octagon's flashy stuff. The Satanico vs Santo match up was very good. It really sucks that they never had a major feud. It seems like there should have been a Santo vs Satanico Mask vs Hair match at some point.

For some reason I was curious how old Batista is, so I went to imdb to find out. There I learned that Smackdown episodes have titles as if it were a typical sitcom. Some of the names include: Taking a Stand The Host is Here, Brother Deal With It, Fella YEStle Mania Shield-nanigans. Wall of Flesh USO Crazy Wee, Wee, Wee, All the Way Home No Time for Love Just wanted to share because I think that is hilarious.

What is Rich's best babyface run that we have on video?

I watched the Corino vs Tommy Rich match from PWX mentioned in the Tommy Rich thread. I would agree with Dylan saying it was a great Corino performance and Rich just happened to be there. Rich did have some good looking punches even if they were really slow. Aside from that this was a total one man show from Corino. Corino will definitely be my post 2002 indy's gateway drug (literally all the post 2002 indy stuff I've seen is Danielson matches. never seen Steen, Generico, Jacobs, etc etc).

Yes. But the matches with Scorp & Bagwell were actually some of my favourites heel Nasties matches, mostly because Scorp was so awesome an opponent for them. It's odd. The Nasties are not what I'd call good workers at all individually, but they were a pretty decent team overall, and since I love tag team wrestling, I enjoy the whole of the Nasties much more than the sum of their parts. I agree that they're much much much better as a team. I will not be watching and pimping any Brian Knobbs singles matches. They're a good example of psychology and character work being more important than execution and innovation. They worked exactly as you would expect two big homeless dudes to work in a pro wrestling context. And we agree on the greatness of Scorpio.

Right on. I like Corino a lot so I will check it out even if Rich doesn't do much.

Has anyone watched much post ECW indy worker Tommy Rich? Anything worth seeking out? I came across a match against Steve Corino from PWX (no date) that looks interesting.

I should be watching 80s Lucha, but instead I'm binge watching Nasty Boys matches. I just watched 5 WCW Saturday Night matches I picked totally at random (and by that I mean, I avoided anything with Harlem Heat) against the following teams: 1. vs Ricky Steamboat and Sting 2. vs Arn Anderson and Paul Roma 3. vs Brad Armstrong and Lou Perez 4. vs. 2 Cold Scorpio and Marcus Bagwell (title change) 5. vs Ron Simmons and Ice Train The Ice Train match was the worst one (which makes 10 year old me sad because 10 year old me was like ICE TRAIN! FUCK YES!) which shouldn't really be a shock to anyone. Honestly I probably liked the Brad Armstrong match the most (10 year old me would not know what to do with this turn of events). Arn Anderson did my least favorite spot in any of the matches oddly enough (after forearming the ring post and having his arm worked over, Arn did a really bad bridge up while in a top wristlock on the ground) but the match was still good. The Nasty Boys were heels in all of the matches. They are all 10-13 minute traditional TV tag matches. They are all worked in a pretty standard formula with the babyfaces dominating to start, Nasty Boys cheating to take over and building to the hot tag then a work to the finish. They do a nice job cutting off the ring and isolating one guy. They do a good job misdirecting the referee so they can cheat without getting caught. The only spot in any of those 5 matches that was overly reckless or dangerous was honestly them running into each other off an irish whip reversal. They threw some stiff shots here and there but nothing on the level of your typical Vader or Hansen or Kawada etc matches. Other than their strikes, most of their offense was of the headbutt, leg drop, elbow drop, body slam variety. Although I imagine Saggs probably destroyed some people along the way with his top rope elbow drop. I agree with EL-P's comment about them understanding tag team psychology. They definitely understand the staples of the style. They also show an understanding of general wrestling psychology in this group of matches. They get up and down bumping for Scorpio's arm drags and dropkicks. When they're in against Ice Train they're attempting shoulderblocks and eating then bumps from an "immovable object." They have an awesome and explosive "chopping down the tree" spot in that match. They also both flex and show off their muscles in a match with freaking Ice Train so that's solid heel showing ass schtick. They look as comfortable eating flashy 2 Cold Scorpio Offense as they do getting tossed by Ron Simmons. What else...oh right "looooooong control segment chockfull of restholds." Yeah that didn't happen at all. They would work ab stretches but with one Nasty grabbing the other Nasty's hand for more "leverage." Which is just basic heel tag team psychology that is no different when the Nasty Boys do it than when the Midnight Express are. There is a bearhug spot in the Scorpio match but it is neither long nor boring and it helps build the heat in the match. I guess you could argue that the matches were too short for the Nasty's to chock them full of restholds, but I suspect most Nasty Boys matches were in the 10-15 minute range. So I really wasn't seeing them. Maybe the 5 totally random matches I found just happened to be the 5 matches (really it is 6 because the one vs Tommy Rich and Ricky Morton I watched yesterday is good too) they had that weren't terrible other than the ones that everyone already knows about. I must admit, it wasn't a totally random selection of 5 matches. I started to watch one against the Southern Boys but I didn't want to be accused of only picking matches they were in opposite good workers. So instead of the match with Tracy Smothers, I watched the one with Ice Train. And it had them doing different spots than they had in the previous 4 matches. Spots tailored to making a green muscle head look good because that is what the match called for. So, yeah. I think someone did a good job smartening them up no matter what Kevin Sullivan Says.

This list looks like something Scott Keith would produce with all the Benoit matches edited out and Hogan vs Andre added in. The best is RVD vs Jerry Lynn being ranked one spot behind Tully vs Magnum. I cannot imagine two more different matches. Also weird that Sting shows up more times than Cena.

I like the Nastys as faces and as heels. But what are their best matches as babyfaces, excluding War Games 94? When I think of their very best matches, they are heels.

Shit, they probably have more great matches than Hansen and Dibiase as a team.

I was searching for Tommy Rich matches on youtube and came across Rich and Ricky Morton vs The Nasty Boys from WCW Saturday Night 10/20/90 and immediately thought "nothing else happens in my life until I watch that fucking match." It wasn't a great match but it was a really fun studio style tag match. Tommy Rich played Ricky Morton and Ricky Morton played Robert Gibson. Nasty's brought some nice heel team work, stiff shots, and good bumps. I'm a fan of the Nasty Boys. Like I said in the nominations thread, I don't think they're a contender for the top 10 or anything like that but I could see them sneaking into my bottom 20. I also think they're better than some of the teams nominated already so I figured I would throw them a nod. They "looked" like a tag team, worked a really violent style, and were good bumpers for guys their size. Everyone knows their big matches against The Steiners and Cactus & Friends. I suspect there are quite a few good matches like the one against Morton and Rich on early 90s WCW TV. Matt D should do an in-depth look at the Nastys.

I wanted to nominate the Nasty Boys. In no way are they a number 1 contender or even a top 10 contender but I think they're clearly better than some of the teams already nominated and could absolutely make the tail end of my list. I chose some of Loss's reviews from the yearsbooks threads. Nasty Boys vs Steiner Brothers Halloween Havoc 10/90 "I always thought this was a great spotfest brawl, and that's still true after watching it again. I think I like this better than the more talked about brawls with Cactus in '94, because it's chaotic, but also is still a fairly traditional tag match too." Nasty Boys vs Cactus Jack and Maxx Payne Spring Stampede 4/94 "Insane brawl! My favorite moment is when Cactus is covering one of the Nasties and gets smacked with a surprise shovel out of nowhere. Ten minutes of mayhem. I see this and get pissed off at matches like these getting overdone and the spots getting gratuitous or being played for comedy like they were in the early 00s famed hardcore division. This was excellent, and felt more violent and unpredictable than most weapons-heavy brawls like this of the past decade. It's only 10 minutes, but there was no need for them to go longer." Nasty Boys vs Cactus Jack and Kevin Sullivan Slamboree 5/94 "Pretty awesome wild brawl. Most people know this match well, so I won't walk through it, but I will say I liked it more than I expected to like it, even having really liked the Spring Stampede tag. The one thing I didn't care for was the way they set up Dave Schulz's altercation with Sags. But everything else was the bees knees, and the post-match angle with Payne and Evad getting their revenge was even better."