tim

I love Bryan but man is he awful in those backstage segments. He sounds so stiff and awkward. Eh I don't know how I felt about this RAW. On one hand the Cody stuff was awesome, I liked Ryback/Ziggler both as an angle and a match and that Bryan/Corporation angle is still giving RAW actual direction. But I was rolling my eyes at that ending more for it just being the same ending as since this angle's started than for anything else. And really Big Show maybe cries a bit too much. I really like the idea of Show's involvement in this angle but they could be pulling it off a lot better. The last two weeks the crowd's been crazy about him and I hope they don't lose that if this sort of thing continues for much longer.

Seems like Okada/Tanahashi is a pretty safe bet for MOTY. Which is a shame because this is a year with quite a few really great high end MOTYCs and that isn't one of them. From what I've seen online even the more "casual" NJPW fans buy that as a classic and I assume they make up a very significant chunk of WON voters. If I had to bet I'd probably say Okada as WOTY because that just seems to be the zeitgeist with those guys. Bryan has a good shot though due to the megapush.

I'm actually somewhat interested in Richards in WWE. When he is left to indulge his natural tendencies he is a pile of shit but I remember quite enjoying some of his heel work around mid 2007; I remember him working largely low-key mid card style matches (well in ROH terms) and being a total dick to the crowd, teasing going for a top rope dive and then just stepping down and flipping off the crowd etc and I thought he was pretty good when I despised him previously. Maybe he can be good filtered through the WWE style. But yeah he is off his ass nuts, I'm at least looking forward to reports of his erratic behavior.

Yeah, it's all about the call back to the promo. I think I still would've liked it even without the promo, but given the promo I went nuts for it during the match. Just flipped out when Cena whacked Bryan and told him to hit him back.

Speaking of Big Show on RAW, I'm not saying this is what they should've done, but can you imagine how nuts the crowd would've went if he whacked Orton and Trips with KO Punches as they walked to the back. He'd instantly be at least like the #2 over guy on the roster. I get the criticism that it makes the roster look weak. It works for the angle but it really is sacrificing everyone else at the alter of that angle. I do find it interesting how Bryan is sort of playing the held-down white collar employee who is empowered vs. his bosses because he's not scared of losing the cushy job like everyone else is. Interesting parallel to how Austin was the blue collar worker who just totally lived out a beating but your boss fantasy.

I can't say I have a great deal of biographical information for many wrestling promoters but Vince seems like he stumbled upon being a uniquely propitious mix of businessman and promoter. He was an "insider" enough to, obviously, have been put into a position where he was managing a major promotion. If Vince McMahon Jr's father wasn't Vince McMahon Sr, this conversation wouldn't be happening, which matters a lot imo as far as how much "Vince McMahon as self made genius" is a reasonable thing to think. He was enough of an outsider to think "beyond" was wrestling was at the time and did have a business degree from a college, and although it's not like he went to Wharton or anything I don't know if any other major promoter of the time would have come at managing their promotion with a real "pure business" mindset. That right mix of wrestling and business background/opportunity combined with his work ethic and some serious talents he does have was a recipe for big success. Is he a very capable businessman with a great mind for his product? Obviously. But I think it's too far to call him a genius. WWE has spewed out way too much downright garbage and has had too many extended periods of very poor overall quality to really think of him as a CREATIVE genius, and pretty wanting business success/popularity in an era where WWE is essentially a monopoly makes me question the idea of Vince as a Jobs-esque business/marketing genius.

I more or less like Okada's finisher actually. He tends to hit it pretty decently when he actually connects and although a lot of the time the reversal sequences look like ballroom dancing or something (Okada REALLY needs to make his opponents duck rather than aiming too high, or worse practically leaping his arm over their heads) I think some have been pretty neat. His other offense though is awful, especially his painfully terrible submissions and his weird US-indie imported offense that feels incredibly out of place in the style he works and has actually killed heat during heated exchanges when he hits one because it's so outside the context of Japanese heavyweight wrestling.

Watched Okada/Ibushi myself just now. Eh, I wouldn't recommend it but I won't countermand anyone else's recommendation. Thought they got off to a quite good start actually then settled into one of those puro matches where they're just trading moves and it's not particularly interesting -- excepting one cool dive by Ibushi. A couple decent spots at the end and a pretty neat finish. It's a fun match if you're into that style, and parts of it can be enjoyable even if you're not, but I don't think it's in any way a GOOD match.

Some browsing in some of the 90s yearbook subforums would probably disprove the "best month ever" idea pretty quick but it was an exceptionally great wrestling month IMO, and probably the best in many years. If someone told me Punk/Lesnar and Cena/Bryan were both in their top 10 WWE matches ever I wouldn't think it one bit odd. And I've hated a lot of NJ stuff that NJ fans love, and I absolutely loved the G1 this year, though people who I tend to agree with have been less high on it than me so maybe I'm somewhat of an anomaly. Still I thought it was a blow out great week of wrestling with a couple great matches and I thought the shows tended to be very enjoyable overall with decent variety. I came out of the G1 not hating Okada. I think his number one huge glaring problem is his awful moveset, but if he amended that (he won't) I think he'd be a legit good wrestler as I think he works the NJPW big moves and counters style pretty well for what it is and is a very good seller. I'll probably watch that Okada/Ibushi match out of curiosity.

Watched this match after Loss' comment in the Random Comments thread and yeah this is really great, I'd recommend it to everyone. Beginning is totally awesome with Tamura going for a test of strength lock up, but Toshie slapping her hand away, grabbing her and setting them off on a hot exchange where they run the ropes and hit and bunch of flash spots, shortly followed by the mother of all Joshi hair-tosses. The hold working in this match is good as they stretch the hell out of each other and add little touches: Toshie biting Tamura's arm at one point, also quickly dropping a leg after a boston crab, among a bunch of other cool stuff that happens during holds throughout. Toshie's leg selling really is great with her slapping at it and trying to pump herself up to continue on, more than making up for the lack of more "traditional" limb selling, limping etc., that one could mistake for no-selling if not for the very emotional attention given to the knee, especially after a dive to the outside later in the match. Tons of awesome exchanges that would look exceptionally great in any of the best Daniel Bryan type matches -- reversing a victory roll into a leglock, a backslide into a Northern Lights suplex, and the awesome ending. Some great long-term payoff spots too. Incredible match that I probably never would've wound up watching in a million years. It's on youtube.

burn, with a capital B+

I'll try to get in a ballot for this, my feelings on what are the elite matches of 2000s Japan need some fleshing out/informing anyway. Looking at the list though, I'd recommend everyone to watch the Saito v. Honda match from 2003 even though it's not even italicized. If it's as good as I remember it it would do well on my top 50.

Didn't Joe used to do it on the Indies?

I think I rate Cena higher than a lot of people even around these parts. His "big match" ability cannot be denied, but I think he's also often been great in smaller matches. During the Miz feud in 2009, for example, on their first PPV match they work an established star vs. upstart in over his head opening and Cena is absolutely brilliant in it, with his facial expressions, body language and they wa he schooled Miz with a chain/mat wrestling combo that was so crisp and forceful that you can only meet the idea that Cena has no 'technical ability' with incredulity. He has tons of awesome TV matches like the Rey title match on RAW, a Daniel Bryan match on RAW from 2 years back or so, and many more. For a guy who's so great at big matches you'd think his skills are in the "macro" aspects of wrestling: expressive selling, big move sequences, etc, but Cena is awesome at "the small stuff," like low-key facial expressions at certain moments where they aren't even highlighted or subtle selling of little things throughout the match. More than a couple times he's done the Misawa "roll out of the ring to avoid a pin/further offense" which is very become of his "ace" role, and I remember in his MITB match vs. Punk, Punk sort of botches a crossbody and lands more on Cena's leg, and Cena covers it by scootching to the apron and holding his knee. Heck, maybe that wasn't "selling," but it sure came off as a great ad-hoc thing to do to make a "botch" something meaningful in the match. There are tons of examples of that stuff throughout Cena matches, both his big matches and his nothing TV matches. I guess consistency is Cena's biggest issue but by virtue of being the #1 guy he's both given awesome opportunities to show off how good he is and also placed into long, shitty programs without much of a chance for good matches. I think at his best he's as good as a lot of Top 50 of all time guys.

I definitely wouldn't say that. It's a minimalist match if there ever was one, and it's a very very "lucha" lucha match. Extended rudo beatdown, very simple comeback and then a very 'war of attrition' ending stretch. All those things make it great but to a newcomer to lucha I'm not at all surprised the match could seem boring. I remember the thread on DVDVR when that match was first 'discovered' and everyone touting as a GOAT contender. I was just getting into lucha and was already enjoying a lot of 90s CMLL type stuff but I couldn't get into this match very much at the time. But I kept on watching the lucha I already liked, exposing myself to the more technical and sort of low-key 80s stuff that people were talking up and started to 'get' it more, started really liking it, and some time later I came back and watched that match and absolutely loved it as anyone else who likes the style does. For me lucha was almost something of an acquired taste. There were things I liked right away: a lot of 90s CMLL, contemporary trios, etc, but stuff like maestro mat-based matches and old school brawls/war of attrition fights took me a while to fully appreciate. It's a style you just have to "get" and for me it took some exposure. SO I'd say to everyone get that 80s lucha set, even if you're on the fence in the beginning you might love it come the later disks.

It was on par with Christian's great 2009 matches imo. Five more minutes at the quality it was keeping up and it would be a decent MOTYC in its own right.

So, are there any WWE shows that are clearly better than this was? Is there a WWE show where the THIRD best match is as good as ADR/Christian? Even where the second best match is as good as Punk/Lesnar or Bryan/Cena depending on your preference? With some of the egregious downtime moved into 5 extra minutes for ADR/Christian and a Shield vs. Show/Henry match I think we'd be talking about easily the best WWE PPV ever.

I'm actually feeling pretty good toward Trips right now, kept his bullshit completely for the post match, didn't assert his presence in the match and didn't even draw out his entrance taking time away from the match which I was expecting.

Agree with this and I liked that show a good bit. Anyone else really love the fact that Bryan v. Cena had the ultimate in decisive finishes and Cena went down in the dead center of the ring to a single KO shot? Just the single fact that the ending was what it was is one of the biggest wrestling surprises I can think of in a long time. Loved Bryan's face after the count too. Who was the last guy to beat Cena 100% clean, which was what this truly was? edit: other than rock

This felt like to me one of the better WWE shows ever. Loved the Big Three matches, and couldn't believe Cena/Bryan ended perfectly clean, and well perfectly period. I'll need to rewatch it but it felt like a very strong MOTYC. Everything else delivered what I wanted it to. Mixed tag was a lot of fun, Sandow/Cody was hot and fast paced and quite well worked, and the opener, though it would be an absolute piece of shit match without fire surrounding it, was a decently fun spectacle including the post-match. Even the divas match was better than it could have been. I disagree that this creamed all the G1 shows but this was a great night for sure.

Yeah, a great card is more than just a collection of great matches. I don't know if I want to see 10 all time classics in a row if I'm sitting down to watch a wrestling show. I want to see a hot opener, maybe something of a light-hearted fun commedy-type match in the middle, something unique like a good man/man little man match or an entertaining gimmick match, maybe a great workrate-y midcard match and an epic main event. I don't want 10 epic main events in row.

i dont necessarily want to fan the flames of such an absurd discussion but i do think if many anti-gay marriage people had enough grasp on logic to understand that their claim that homosexuality is a "choice" is an implicit admission that they are equally attracted to members of their same sex, then that talking point would not be around much longer