ohtani's jacket

FYI, the British Kung Fu and Mexican Kung Fu are totally different wrestlers.

I keep a list of every European match I've seen, but I only record the match dates. I use notepad. It's not very exciting, sorry, but I keep it on a memory stick and refer to it all the time. I never bothered with other styles. I keep a list of records and films, though. Otherwise I forget what I've seen or heard.

A more realistic, warts and all approach to Jumbo isn't something that started with this project. People have been tossing these ideas around since before the DVDVR set. It's a proper critical analysis of an all-time great and something you'd hope and expect most candidates to go through.

Did anybody watch the Perro Aguayo match/tercera caida before the channel was yanked?

I did not know that. For how long did the big two promotions not broadcast in Mexico City? Was it because their attendance was so good they didn't have to worry about TV or is TV a different deal in terms of importance over there at that time? Forgive my ignorance, lucha is one of my blindspots in some ways, even though I've watched a fair bit. Trying to work on that. You can read about it more in more detail in the Lucha History Lessons thread on this site in the DVDVR Backup forum, but lucha was basically banned from television in Mexico City from the mid-50s through to the late 80s. Lucha was broadcast on TV outside of Mexico City, and EMLL was shown on cable from '83 onwards, but UWA didn't have TV until Nov '91 at which point they were no longer the top promotion in Mexico. When Televisa began televising EMLL on national TV in 1990 there was a TV boom that led to wrestler strikes and the formation of AAA, which was essentially a political move by Televisa to gain exclusive control over lucha. Prior to the TV boom, people followed lucha through live attendance and the weekly lucha mags. Post-TV booms both those outlets declined dramatically.

Women's wrestling was banned for a long time in Mexico City. When the ban was finally overturned in the mid-80s, women were used sparingly much like the minis. The most well-known female wrestlers from the 80s are the ones that toured Japan in the 70s and 80s with La Galatica (better known in Mexico as Pantera Surena) being the most prominent due to her feud with Jaguar Yokota. Other stars from that era were Lola González, Irma Aguilar, the Moreno sisters and Martha Villalobos, who was pretty much the Mexican Dump Matsumoto. The Moreno sisters were popular in Japan in the early 90s and Esther in particular was well liked in Joshi circles when I first got into Japanese wrestling. I don't know about the modern scene. My impression is that the luchadoras have been featured more promptly in the 2010s than in any other era, though I do believe there was an initial surge in their popularity when the ban was overturned.

These are the workers I would have considered: Fujiwara, Fujinami, Tenryu, Hashimoto, Misawa, Kawada, Taue, Kobashi, Maeda, Tamura, Ikeda, Ishikawa, Jaguar, Chigusa, Ozaki, Kyoko Inoue, Hokuto, Toyota, Devil, Kansai, Bull Nakano, Mimi Hagiwara, Yumi Ikeshita, Mariko Yoshida, Volk Han and Carl Greco (if they count.) Azumi Hyuga and Meiko Satomura I would have come close to considering and prime Ohtani. Akiyama I'd need to watch more of his 00s stuff.

I have nothing against artistic licence unless it's wildly abused or the film is trying to make a strong political statement, but in the example of that football coach, it's a cliche that all football coaches are hard asses. Every scriptwriter's thinking "I gotta have more jeopardy, I need more conflict, there has to be more obstacles for my hero to overcome," but to me a good scriptwriter will add some twist to things and not lean too heavily on cliche. I do think when you're dealing with real life people, at least more contemporary real life people (as opposed to historical figures), you have to be more careful than whether Mel Gibson ought to be in a tartan kilt or not. The majority of the audience only care about entertainment, but it would be a different story if you knew the guy personally.

Mindgames is a legitimately great match that has always been thought of as a great match. The Clash match is a legitimately great match that has always been thought of as a great match. The rethinking on Flair/Garvin (to me anyway) would be more akin to people claiming that Shawn/Vader was a better match than anybody had ever thought or the Flair/Sting match from the 1990 Great American Bash.

Grey vs. Breaks is interesting. I'd say that Grey has the greater volume of strong matches on tape, but there are a couple of reasons for that. He debut later than Breaks so more of his prime is on tape, and Breaks was often booked in lengthy programs as opposed to the variety of opponents Grey faced. A lot of the time Breaks was assigned to work with young talent. Every now and again he'd face a gimmick worker. Grey avoided much of that. He was also on TV for longer and had productive years in '85 and '86. Grey also got to work a greater amount of catch weight bouts, which often produced the best matches. My gut feeling is that if we had more of Breaks' 60s and 70s work available that Breaks would come out on top, but I will say that not all of the rare Breaks matches I have are blow away bouts. Physically, he was in amazing shape in the early 70s, but I think his character stuff grew as TV wrestling became increasingly flamboyant. I actually think the Young David feud may be he peak of Breaks. In my mind anyway.

****+ is the opposite extreme of **. The truth, as ever, lies somewhere in the middle.

It's not a conversation that's going to go anywhere. I like Garvin as a worker -- the Tully match is one of my all-time favourite bouts -- but any way you cut it Starrcade '87 isn't great. Even if you think it's a ***, *** 1/2 or *** 3/4 match, that's not good enough from a Flair match on a major PPV. Flair seemed to have a pretty weak year in '87. What's his best stuff from that year? The Windham matches? War Games? I thought the Garvin bout from the Bash was awful, but Crockett era fans seem to like the Precious angle. .

Eh, the Garvin/Flair feud not working is a perfectly valid reason not to rate that match highly. The '87 version of their feud was weaker than the '86 stuff, the Garvin title reign doesn't work and the heat for the Chicago match is weak. Flair chasing the title at Starrcade comes across as a poor man's version of Starrcade '83 and the whole thing is overshadowed by the moves the WWF were making to screw Crockett and Crockett trying to take New York.

Time for an update: Ranking the European Workers v.4 (Jan 2016) All-Time Greats Jim Breaks, Mick McManus, Alan Sarjeant, Jon Cortez, Marty Jones, Steve Grey Great Workers Terry Rudge, Tibor Szacaks, Mike Marino, Ken Joyce Excellent Workers Bobby Barnes, Robby Baron, Franz van Buyten, Clive Myers, Steve Veidor, Sid Cooper, Alan Kilby, Pat Roach, Pete Roberts, Caswell Martin, Mike Bennett Strong Hands Johnny Czeslaw, John Elijah, Tiger Dalibar Singh, Keith Haward, Tom Tyrone, Brian Maxine, Les Kellett, Romany Riley, Alan Wood, Axl Dieter, Bobby Ryan, Dave Finlay, Ray Steele, Marc Rocco, Zolton Boscik, Johnny Kincaid, Chic Cullen, Tony St. Clair, Skull Murphy Decent Hands Steve Logan (Sr), Jim Moser,, Peter La Paque, Tommy Lorne, Colin Joynson, Ray Robinson, Vic Faulkner, Tony Costas, Bert Royal, Roy St. Clair, John Kowalski, Johnny South, Ringo Rigby, Rocky Moran, Jeff Kaye, Johnny Kidd, Young David, Otto Wanz, John Quinn, Tony Walsh, Rene Lasartesse, Dynamite Kid, Steve Regal, Clay Thomson, Johnny Kwango, Bob Kirkwood, Prince Kumali, Dave Bond, Tarzan Johnny Wilson, Lenny Hurst, René Ben Chemoul, Gilbert Cesca, Bob Plantin, Mal Sanders, Tally Ho Kaye, Indio Guajaro, Klaus Wallas, Jackie Turpin, Klaus Kauroff, Count Vladimir, Pat Patton, Little Prince, Black Jack Mulligan, Pete Stewart, Alan Miquet, Keith Martinelli, Steve Speed, Ian McGregor, Dave Duran, Robbie Brookside, Doc Dean, Blondie Barratt, Mike Zrno, Johnny Palance, Claude Gessat, Marcel Mannevau, Jean Menard, Jacky Richard Average Kung Fu, Alan Dennison, Tony Charles, Mick McMichael, Count Baretlli, Lee Bronson, Honey Boy Zimba, Kendo Nagasaki, Johnny England, Mike Jordan, Kid Chocolate, Dave Taylor, Ivan Penzekoff, Billy Torontos, Colonel Brody, Bernie Wright, Peter Wilson, King Ben, Bruno Elrington, Peter Rann, Kevin Conneely, Johnny Yearsley, Leon Fortuna, Steve Haggerty, Leon Arras, Bob Abbott, John Carlo, Mel Stuart, Colin Bennett, Bobby Graham, John Cox, Neil Sands, Spencer Churchill, Barry Douglas, Ian Muir, Pete Ross, Rex Strong, Gary Wensor, Ed Wensor, Sandy Scott, Tim Fitzmaurice, Lucky Gordon, Scrubber Daly, Bob Anthony, Mal Kirk, Steve Peacock, Beau Jack Rowlands, Wild Angus, Lee Sharon, John Wilkie, Bill Bromley, Steve McHoy, Grasshopper, Andy Blair, Drew McDonald, Rick Wiseman, Studs Lannigan, Eddie Riley, Richie Brooks, Greg Valentine, Jeff Kerry, Kid McCoy, Peter Bainbridge, Jamaica George, Steve Logan (Jr.), Carl Jason, Shane Stevens, Boston Blackie, Franz Schumann, Ricky Knight, Jimmy Ocean Not the Greatest Orig Williams, Rasputin, King Kendo, Mohammed Butt, Flesh Gordon Overrated Johnny Saint, Steve Wright, Eddie Capelli, Wayne Bridges, John Naylor, Danny Collins, Chris Adams

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 52 53 (Screwed up the numbering of these.) Catweazle vs. Shane Stevens (11/25/86) Short Catweazle squash. I was never much of a Catweazle fan unless he was wrestling McManus and Stevens hasn't shown me much thus far. Instantly forgettable. Greg Valentine vs. Ted Heath (10/15/86) Heath was an old school submission brawler who worked in the Amarillo territory for a number of years. He probably could have torn Valentine apart if he'd wanted, but instead was a total pro and got some nice heat for comedy spots like crotching himself on a posting. Fun little performance. Jimmy Ocean & Doc Dean vs. Danny Boy Collins & John Harvey (Eurosport circa 1991) These guys worked hard but it really was the new wave of European wrestling and not the kind of stuff that first attracted me to the British style. I can't recall seeing Harvey before. He pinched Steamboat's fire breathing entrance, which was another bit of WWF aping. I guess that's to be expected since the WWF boom came later in the UK. Match set up a singles bout between Ocean and Collins, which was another sign the bookers had one eye on the WWF. Danny Boy Collins vs. Jimmy Ocean (Eurosport circa 1991) This had the potential to be kind of neat, but like a lot of Collins matches from this era it was nothing special. Collins was obviously a talented guy but something's not clicking when I watch his stuff. Andy Robin vs. "Ripper" John Raven (5/7/87) I can't say I'm much of a Robin fan, and I get sick of hearing about Hercules the Bear every time he's on, but he was a real throwback to the way wrestlers used to be on ITV. He was clearly a hard nut off screen who pranced about and acted eccentric in the ring. And he was unpredictable in the ring. He tossed the ref about in this particular bout for no particular reason despite being a blue eye and gave Raven the fingers a couple of times. He reminded me a bit of Billy Torontos the way he moved about the ring and that gruff Mike Marino look to him. If he'd worked some cool holds I'd probably like him, but outside of the power lock he didn't have much. Raven had even less and certainly wasn't doing any ripping. Pretty average.

Looks like Bennett was wrestling in the halls for Joint in the early 80s so perhaps that's when his heel run started. Man, I would have liked to have seen some of these bouts -- Bennett vs. Grey, Bennett vs. Haward, Bennett vs. Cortez.

Mike Bennett vs. Steve Logan (3/4/86) This was the final of the 1986 Grand Prix Belt tournament, and my what an ugly belt. I've said it before, but Joint Promotions had the ugliest belts in wrestling. This was a good little bout, but a bit low key for a tournament final. I was impressed with Logan's counters and thought he did a good job working the mat. Bennett brought his usual bag of tricks and was flirting with a public warning the entire time. The ref was Jeff Kaye (remember him?) Every time he'd threaten to give Bennett a warning, Bennett would take him by the arm and gently guide him to the opposite corner. It was a neat tactic, but of course there was no mention of their history. That felt like another of those never-ending missed opportunities that the bookers never seemed to cash in on. One thing that was coming along nicely was Bennett's heel act. He was starting to find his character in the ring and his heel work in '86 was stronger than in '85. He won the Grand Prix Belt and got a winner's medal to go along with it. He seemed poised to win even more silverware in the Golden Grappler Trophy tournament when suddenly he was gone. He defeated Brooks in the quarters yet somehow it was Brooks who wrestled in the semis. There's a copy of the semi out there, but I don't have it so I'm not sure how Walton explained the situation. They probably disguised it as an injury withdraw. I'm not sure what happened to Bennett, but by the end of April he was off Joint Promotion cards. He may have jumped to All-Star. It seems very strange that they'd book him to win a major tournament and then severe ties with him. It's a shame too because he could have produced more (at least in '86 when the TV was stronger relative to '87 and '88.) Mike Bennett vs. Kid Chocolate (2/27/86) This was the semis for the Grand Prix Belt. Bennett deserves credit for making Kid Chocolate seem more interesting than usual. The crowd got right behind Chocolate during the opening fall and so did Walton. You won't hear Chocolate get too many bigger pops than the one he got for pinning Bennett. Bennett's tricks are almost always the same in each bout, but he makes his opponents look so good and he was excellent at tournament bouts (and let's face it, Joint's television tournaments weren't much better than the ones in the U.S.) Mike Bennett vs. Alan Dennison (4/23/79) This was some choppy footage that survived from the late 70s. I'd seen it before but had no memory of it. Bennett was wrestling as a blue eye here, so unless he did his heel act on the indy circuit, I think the Heritage guys had their wires crossed about when he turned heel. The footage is too clipped to make much of an impression and I'm not a big Dennison fan in the first place. Closing out the comp are some local news stories about a chain smoking granny named Blanche Lecrass who was threatened with a ban if she didn't stop attacking the heels and a council's dilemma about whether to replace wrestling with opera. Here's a newspaper article about Blanche: https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=n-8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT36&lpg=PT36&dq=wrestling+bristol+granny+ban&source=bl&ots=jjR7eYmNJ1&sig=1BO1nQr9oPWibtn2D1Aili4ZOTM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwishbjLl8LKAhXmFqYKHUBxBfAQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=wrestling%20bristol%20granny%20ban&f=false

Now there's music to my ears.

Blasphemy.

Did Fujiwara really *do* a porn, all I know is he directed one for a variety TV show. That Fujiwara segment is pretty funny. It's from a late night comedy show starring the famous owarai duo Utchan Nanchan. It's kind of surreal watching Fujiwara drink a bottle of booze while directing a porn scene, but what makes it even more surreal is that Rumi Kazama and Shinobu Kandori are watching it on a monitor along with Nanchan. I found the covers for the two Fujiwara tapes. I think Champion might have been involved in distributing the second one, Thunder Ecstasy. They used to have some dodgy homemade uncensored porn in their shop.

I meant with overseas fans who've only seen him work in Japan, but I don't think he's an overwhelming favourite of the Heritage guys either since most of them had stopped watching by the 80s.

I don't like Atlantis' selling in his early days ,but you should check out the El Faraon match from '85 if you liked that Satanico bout.

When people talk about Fujinami being an ace are they talking about his juniors days or his IWGP Heavyweight run? I don't see the argument for him being a better ace than Tsuruta. He absolutely blows Jumbo away on the mat. There is no way Jumbo should be a 10 with matwork figured in. FWIW, I don't think getting a great match out of Dynamite Kid should be figured into Fujinami's case. Dynamite Kid was a good worker.

How much WoS would you need to watch to adequately judge Breaks, or anyone else for that matter? I've been doing my European wrestling thread on WKO since 2009 and have chopped and changed my opinions on guys countless times. And even though I've watched hundreds of WoS matches that doesn't mean people are going to agree with my opinions. Take Boscik for example. He's a guy it took me forever to come around on and yet most people seem to dig him straight away. The joy of watching WoS is that it's an untapped goldmine of new wrestlers to discover. I could understand telling people you gotta watch more WoS if I thought Breaks was overrated, but he's not.

I don't think that list is all that dissimilar from the workers the rest of us enjoy. And the things you like about lucha are the same things we enjoy. I also wasn't a fan of lucha brawling at first and generally prefer title matches and trios bouts. I agree that you have to accept the conventions for what they are, but after a while you start to see which workers excelled at working with those conventions. You have to do the same thing with European wrestling, but for some reason people aren't so put off by it. I wonder if it's because Walton is there to explain it all while lucha is confusing as hell at the best of times.