ohtani's jacket

This really is a peculiar hang up you have with lucha, Parv. Surely, you're not that uncomfortable with people voting for luchadores. alex, I think guys like Lizmark are hurt by the way folks view footage. There's a difference between folks who watch whatever they can find online and folks who comb through tape lists looking for stuff they're never heard anybody talk about. Unless you're the type of person who watches whatever lucha they can find online, you're probably looking for that one really good Lizmark that convinces you he's worth pursuing with, and not going to bother with a really good Lizmark performance in an otherwise average trios. Experienced lucha viewers know what matches look interesting on paper, but it's tougher if you don't know the cast of characters, and really us hardcores haven't done much of the legwork to single out the under the radar stuff. Getting whole TV episodes of lucha and seeing the neat stuff like Lizmark's return run in CMLL is a whole different level of lucha connoisseur. But it also seems that guys aren't that high on classic lucha tecnicos. I've always appreciated guys like Lizmark because it's tougher to find a good tecnico than a rudo. There's also footage issues and the fact that lucha isn't an inherently great singles match style. Plus the Satanico matches are disappointing.

And never a more overrated player was ever put on their back.

Well, I just went down a rabbit hole in Japanese there's no escaping from, but the Toyota flick is softer than the softest shit they'd show on HBO late night on a Friday or Saturday when I was a kid. Amusingly enough, it gets one star ratings on the website I checked. It also stars Cuty Suzuki fwiw.

A lot of the matches on that Juarez channel are the tercera caida only. I'm curious about Casas' shaved hair in the Eddy match. It's always been assumed that Eddy took Casas' hair sometime in the late 80s, but the tag seems to be from the early 90s.

I only just found out recently that Colt had a match for Joint Promotions that was deemed too violent for TV. Then he was fired after the Crabtrees didn't appreciate his antics during a Royal Albert Hall show. Apparently, he was pretty wasted during a Big Daddy tag where he'd been accompanied to the ring by Joe Cocker. Brian Dixon swooped in and started billing him as the man too bad for TV and he had a nice run with All-Star.

There are also some matches from when he first began his 00s reinvention such as the 2001 El Dandy match and the 2002 Solar bout.

This thread has become anti-workrate.

Mike Bennett vs. Jackie Turpin (6/5/85) This was a neat bout between Bennett and Turpin. Bennett was closer to Pete Roberts than Jim Breaks when it came to charisma, but he was an excellent wrestler who was just as good at getting his opponent over as he was at drawing his own heat. This was a catchweight contest with Bennett being the heavier man. He could have easily brushed Turpin aside since Jackie was a forgotten man at this point, but instead he crafted a bout where Turpin looked feisty and competitive. Turpin being a former boxer often got disqualified in his early days for punching and they did a nice job of weaving that boxing background into match tapestry. Bennett smothered Turpin on the mat as he had done with Collins in their first meeting. Turpin reacted with a slap and from there the bout deteriorated into Bennett using moves and Turpin retaliating with punches. Szakacs almost threw the bout out but decided to let them continue and Bennett made the most of his opportunity. It was a bout he was always going to win, but he did a nice job of making Turpin seem like more than a JTTS and turning into a neat little scrap. And he even showed some swagger by walking over to Turpin's corner and showing him the towel with "Marvellous" written on it. Mike Bennett vs. Clive Myers (9/3/85) Myers was fired up for this and looked to open a can of whoop ass on Bennett. It was a lot more showy than Bennett's bouts with Collins and Brooks. If you saw this before Bennett's other fights you'd think he was more of a classic stooging type. It was fun watching Bennett evade Myers' kicks, but Clive's aggression overshadowed the bout too much for my liking. There was no way he was going to go over Bennett clean either, so they ended it on a DQ. I'm not sure why Szakacs was always given the unenviable task of stopping a bout, but he seemed to do it more than any other referee. Mind you, crowds were always hollering for refs to throw heels out, so I guess it didn't make him unpopular. Disappointing bout if you're expecting a classic. Fun watch if you want something to kick back to.

The problem with minis is that their runs never last that long. The mini division in 1997 was amazing and then it fell apart when Virus won promotion to the heavier ranks. The AAA minis you like were primarily on the scene in '94. Recent minis probably have stronger cases. Demus and Pierrothito have been around for a lot longer than Espectrito, for example.

If Atlantis' matches against the likes of Fiera and Emilio Charles Jr were just a bit better he'd be a slum dunk pick. It's weird that he has a rep as an apuesta worker now as he was never that great at them in his prime. The Mano Negra bout in particular is a real disappointment since Negra was a good worker. Another thing that hurts Atlantis from a singles match perspective is that he was overly fond of shock falls where he'd score a pinfall or submission in seconds. I'd take him over Villano III, though, who doesn't often meet my expectations.

Matt, Psycho uploaded the Breaks/Saint match from '78, which you'll probably be interested in.

Are you sure it wasn't Felino? I keep debating whether to buy a best of Caras comp just to get that Panther match.

I'm not sure if he's a top 100 guy, but Fiera's case is helped by how good he looks as a secondary guy in early 90s trios matches. I always got the impression that he was washed up and broken down in the 90s, which to an extent he was, but he's really good in those trios in his rudo role and a bright spot both pre-split and post-split. The Casas match is a classic as well. Black Terry looks solid in his younger days but not significantly better than a lot of swell lucha journeymen. Old man Black Terry is a lucha great, IMO. Early Navarro is way more questionable to me than early Terry. I also think it's kind of unfair to separate Navarro from Solar. They're like a great songwriting pair. Virus at this stage is possibly more deserving of a top 100 placing than either Terry or Navarro, but I say that a few years removed from watching Terry and Navarro regularly.

I like Malenko in short TV matches like Sat Night or The Pro, not so much in longer singles matches, but I respect the talent and skill it takes to wrestle like that more than a limited guy using his tools to tell stories in the ring. Earthquake's not a great example since he had a fair bit of skill to begin with, but I don't believe for a second that Earthquake told great stories in the ring. Earthquake was a guy doing his thing like most other workers. He worked to a standard that most workers should attain and generally do. All of the things you could possibly praise Earthquake for, such as this who my character is, this is how I'm going to portray it in the ring, these are the moves I'm going to do, this is the way I'm going to move, seem like basic pro-wrestling to me. If he knew how to work a good little match on top of that, great, but it's not that smart to me. I mean compare him to Vader. I'm not even that big a Vader fan, but I think most people would gravitate toward him over Tenta if they really had to make a choice. Malenko had structural issues just as many workers do (even great ones), but I don't think his skill should be downplayed. I know not everyone goes in for matwork, but I mostly wanted to post because I think it's wrong to say that everyone has moved away from workrate. Skill level is still the most important determining factor for me when judging a worker.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 51 Crusher Brannigan vs. Johnny South (5/28/83) This is what I mean by Dale Martin & Joint Promotions making guys seem boring. Johnny South didn't resemble in any way, shape or form the Johnny South I know. Of course, his express purpose here was to job to Brannigan, but he could have been any poor sod. This was pretty boring compared to Brannigan's other bouts. Danny Boy Collins vs. Robbie Hagan (Machynlleth, taped 2/5/91) Generic biggish vs. small man bout. They tried hard, I suppose, but the motions were there for all to see. Steve Casey vs. Buffalo Brehney (Eurosport circa 1991) Brehney was a Wigan wrestler who was an ex rugby league player. They started out on the mat and Orig Williams made the same point that I'm always trying to make -- namely, that by the early 90s British wrestling had become more "Americanised" with fewer holds and more clotheslines and suplexes. The matwork Casey and Brehney were doing wasn't particularly great, but it was a salient point from Williams. Then Brehney bust out a whip and it turned into an Americanised brawl. No egg on Orig's face, I suppose. Kamikaze vs. Tally Ho Kaye (5/11/82) Kamikaze has got to be one of the worst characters to grace the small screen. This was over in a flash and was still pretty awful. Giant Haystacks/Crusher Brannigan vs. Ray Steele/Steve McHoy (6/15/82) Not sure if I've seen Steele in a tag before. The faces started out well here. They effectively double teamed Brannigan for the first fall and were looking pretty sharp. Then Haystacks happened. This was back when Stax was a lot more mobile. He wiped Steele out with a Samoan drop and that was all she wrote. Decent little skirmish.

I forgot that there's some 60s footage of him in the Granada TV documentary The Wrestlers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55EgYoYaQU8 The bloke he's wrestling is "Jumping" Jim Hussey, the father of Mark "Rollerball" Rocco. The other match featured is Billy Robinson vs. Roy "Bull" Davis, father of Skull Murphy. There's also a segment where Robinson is teaching some young fellas in Riley's gym and one of the onlookers looks a lot like a young Marty Jones.

Mike Bennett vs. Richie Brooks (3/18/86) Another kick ass performance from Bennett. The way he'd go after his opponent in the opening rounds and stay on his man was vicious. He was one tough worker and gave Brooks a hell of a time in the early going. The heat Brooks got for his comeback was so much more earnt than in run-of-the-mill pro-wrestling and there wasn't a fan in the building who didn't belief an upset was on the cards. This was a quarterfinal for the 1986 Golden Grappler Trophy and you won't find a better quarterfinal heat in any tournament that Joint ever ran. Massive feather in Bennett's cap. Big Daddy/Danny Boy Collins vs. Mike Bennett/Bully Boy Ian Muir (11/13/85) Daddy came to the ring in a Santa gown, ringing a bell and pushing the wheelchair of a "spastic" boy (how times have changed.) He was accompanied by some odd looking individuals called the Pearly Kings and Queens, who are apparently a charity organisation. This was a continuation of the Bennett/Collins feud and the action was pretty hot. There were even some fun Muir/Daddy exchanges for those of you whom love fat boy wrestling. But just as I was about to add this to the hallowed ranks of fun Daddy tags, the finish confused the fuck out of Walton and the MC neither of whom seemed to figure out that Peter Szakacs had called for a DQ on Bennett. At least that's what it seemed like in real time. Wish they'd given us a proper Bennett/Collins program.

Pretty cool upload from Bob ALPRA.

Now I have this mental image of Mean Gene in a recliner reading Longfellow and listening to Mussorgsky.

I wonder who was cultured enough in the WWF to choose that.

This should help --- http://www.cagematch.net/?id=91&nr=216&page=2 YouTube keeps telling me they're having another match this month at Budokan.

You'd think there would a site out there that catalogued all this, but alas.. It seems to me that the more gimmicky guys had themes and the cowboys and big men and what not didn't. I know Duggan used some weird ass theme and Bigelow used music that was later used for Prime Time Wrestling in '91.

Haku and Duggan used it too.

A few of them were -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piledriver:_The_Wrestling_Album_2 Honky Tonk Man actually had a different theme before the Piledriver one and Demolition used an instrumental version before Derringer sang over it.

Savage, Demolition, Harley Race, Rick Rude, the Honky Tonk Man and Slick had theme music by '87. Kamala is another guy who had it.