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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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I hate ladder matches with a passion. Why is there a ladder in the ring? It's stupid. A ladder doesn't belong in a wrestling ring. A cage match makes sense to me conceptually but a ladder match is fundamentally wrong. And falls count anywhere matches; god I loath falls count anywhere matches.
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What did you think of Cena in the match?
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Except that most people would correctly identify sport as theatre and side shows as spectacle. You can't really escape the fact that pro-wrestling is trying to elicit the same response as work we generally refer to art. The package just isn't as appealing in the same way that the soaps are just TV and the top twenty is disposable. It's low brow when it fancies us and transcendent when we want to write a glowing review. So our own treatment of it is inconsistent.
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But again that's true of any form of entertainment. Just replace "money drawn" with "records sold" or "box office." Do you really think producers in Hollywood look down with envy at some indie film with a shoe-string budget that did well at film festivals? Are record executives satisfied with critically acclaimed albums that don't sell? You're right that wrestlers are preoccupied with ticket gates and the houses they drew, especially when reminiscing about their careers, and that they seem more focused on the business than talking about their craft, but I don't think that's conclusive evidence that their craft isn't an art. Since wrestlers at least put some thought into what they do, what would you equate it to if not an art? I mean they actually do have to think about what they're doing to some degree rather than obsessing over ticket stubs all the time. What do you call the learned skill that is pro-wrestling?
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What about Santo?
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elliott, to answer your questions simply, the original UWF was meant to be NJPW mark II but turned into NJPW-lite when guys wouldn't jump (especially Inoki) and they couldn't get a TV deal. Sayama came on board, who had been staunchly in the anti-Shinma/Inoki camp during the coup of '83 and Shinma was given the bum's rush. Then Sayama and the Gotch boys took over and introduced the idea of a promotion build around real pro-wrestling (as in the catch-as-can style that Gotch had been taught at Riley's gym in Wigan.) Fujiwara was Gotch's star pupil, if you like, and responsible for both training guys and implementing much of the stylistic changes. Sayama came from a different martial arts background and was pushing his shooto philosophies and therefore there was always an underlying tension between Sayama's MMA leanings and Gotch's hooking background. Shoot style the first time round was a work in progress and a lot of the guys still did pro-style moves like tombstone piledrivers and other crap. They struggled with cashflow and couldn't get a TV deal because they didn't run enough shows on a monthly basis, and the straight up pro-style guys like Rusher Kimura balked and quit almost straight away so they had a tiny roster outside of the touring Brits. They shut up shop after the backstage problems between Sayama and the Gotch boys boiled over to shoot incidents in the ring. This was the death knell right here: Maeda was suspended and later fired, despite being the ace, and Sayama walked out and started Shooto, which as Tim Cooke and Eduardo will agree, would latter put on some of the most exciting MMA fights in Japan. The Gotch boys headed back to New Japan and feuded with Inoki and the NJPW guys. That lasted a couple of years and then there was another famous shoot incident between Maeda and Choshu where Maeda was suspended and fired (again.) That led to the formation of what we usually called UWF II, but is more commonly known as Newborn UWF in Japan (with the old UWF being the casual name for the first promotion.) Maeda was the baddest motherfucker on the planet at this point, aside from maybe Mike Tyson, and was a massive draw. The Newborn UWF was initially a tremendous success headlined by a rivalry between Maeda and Takada. Their monthly shows sold out in minutes, they were the first Japanese promotion to run the Tokyo Dome, etc., etc. and they did it all without TV. They also ushered in clean finishes and all the other talking points people used to make about UWF II. More importantly for us, the God of shoot style, Yoshiaki Fujiwara wrangled his way out of his New Japan contract, took his two prodigies Suzuki and Funaki with him, jumped to the new UWF promotion, took shoot style to the next level, ascended into heaven and was seated at the right hand of the Lord. Funaki became the big story in 1990 when he returned from injury and started beating everyone leading to a big fight against the top ace Maeda. And it would have been fascinating to have seen what came next, but egos and mismanagement and poor book keeping led to a splintering of the three main power brokers, Maeda, Takada and Fujiwara, which was somewhat amicable and perhaps inevitable but hugely political and tremendously ego-driven. Loss already outlined the difference in the splinter promotions, but basically Maeda gave us RINGS which is like Mozart or Beethoven, Fujiwara gave us PWFG, which was like Thelonious Monk, and Takada gave us UWF-i, which was like Liberace. PWFG pushed the form the most through Funaki and Shamrock, but was a rinky dink indy promotion and increasingly needed to co-promote with other promotions to survive (especially in the era of interpromotional co-operation and cross promotion feuds.) Funaki and Suzuki were completely against that so split off and formed Pancrase, which was quasi-MMA promotion that was a bit liberal with its worked aspects but developed over time into a stylistic form that greatly influenced RINGS at its peak. PWFG eventually folded and out of the ashes was born the hybrid promotion BattlARTS run by Yuki Ishikawa. UWF-i was a farce, but it had two hugely important young guys named Sakuraba and Tamura, the first of which would go on to achieve fame in PRIDE and the second who flirted with jumping to Pancrase but eventually joined RINGS and together with Volk Han, Kohsaka and Yamamoto created bouts which are generally regarded as the highwater mark of shoot style. UWF-i eventually went out of business, briefly reopened as Kingdom and then morphed into PRIDE. PRIDE was a phenomenally entertaining MMA promotion that was the hottest thing in Japan in the early to mid 00s and hurt traditional Japanese pro-wrestling completely and literally killed off shoot style, but was easily the best thing about the Japanese scene in the 2000s and had fights that were better than any worked bouts during that decade. RINGS more or less resorted to MMA in order to survive, but Maeda was basically leaning in that direction anyone and would later promote a second MMA promotion Heroes. Tamura's short lived U-Style promotion was the last real attempt at promoting a shoot style fed aside from maybe shows under the Futen/BattlARTS/Big Mouth Loud banners barring whatever recent feds I'm unfamilar with. Shoot style still exists as a stylistic feature in matches, but there's no promotion committed to it as far as I'm aware, and MMA itself has had its day in Japan. That was extremely rough and dirty, but at least it's a starting point.
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Here is my list of great shoot style bouts. These are my personal picks and may not reflect matches which are actually good, though this was an attempt at reaching consensus and I included some matches that rated well from the Other Japan set. UWF Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (9/7/84) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Nobuhiko Takada (10/22/84) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (12/5/84) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (1/16/85 handheld) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Akira Maeda (3/2/85) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (7/17/85) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (9/11/85) UWF 2 Nobuhiko Takada vs Akira Maeda (11/10/88) Nobuhiko Takada vs Bob Backlund (12/22/88) Yoji Anjoh vs Masakatsu Funaki (6/14/89) Masakatsu Funaki vs Tatsuo Nakano (7/24/89) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Kazuo Yamazaki (7/24/89) Akira Maeda vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (8/13/89) Akira Maeda vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara (2/9/90) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Kazuo Yamazaki (4/15/90) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Masakatsu Funaki (9/13/90) Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (10/25/90) Akira Maeda vs. Masakatsu Funaki (10/25/90) UWF-i Naoki Sano vs. Nobuhiko Takada (12/20/92) Naoki Sano vs. Nobuhiko Takada (10/14/94) Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Kazushi Sakuraba (5/27/96) PWFG Naoki Sano vs. Wayne Shamrock (5/19/91) Naoki Sano vs. Minoru Suzuki (7/26/91) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Masakatsu Funaki (7/26/91) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Yusuke Fuke (2/24/92) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Bart Vale (6/25/92) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Wayne Shamrock (12/5/92) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Joe Malenko (6/1/93) Kingdom RINGS Volk Han vs. Yoshihisa Yamamoto (6/15/95) Volk Han vs. Tsuyoshi Kosaka (8/24/96) Volk Han vs. Kiyoshi Tamura (9/25/96) Volk Han vs. Kiyoshi Tamura (1/22/97) Tsuyoshi Kosaka vs. Yoshihisa Yamamoto (4/4/97) Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Tsuyoshi Kosaka (4/22/97) Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Nikolai Zouev (6/21/97) Volk Han vs. Kiyoshi Tamura (9/27/97) Volk Han vs. Tsuyoshi Kosaka (5/29/98) Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Tsuyoshi Kosaka (6/27/98) Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Yoshihisa Yamamoto (9/21/98) Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Yoshihisa Yamamoto (6/24/99) BattlArts/Big Mouth Loud/Fu-ten/Misc Daisuke Ikeda vs. Carl Greco (2/20/97) Yuki Ishikawa vs. Alexander Otsuka (2/28/97) Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda (4/15/97) Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda (5/27/98) Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda (8/29/99) Yuki Ishikawa vs. Carl Greco (6/9/08) Daisuke Ikeda/Takeshi Ono vs. Manabu Suruga/Takahiro Oba (4/9/09) Takeshi Ono & Takahiro Oba vs. Manabu Suruga & Kengo Mashimo (5/30/10) U-Style Kiyoshi Tamura vs Dokonjonosuke Mishima (8/7/04) Hiroyuki Ito vs. Kiyoshi Tamura (8/18/04) Yuki Ishikawa vs. Hiroyuki Ito (10/9/04) Other Promotions (New Japan, etc.) Akira Maeda vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara (NJPW 1/10/86) Shinya Hashimoto vs. Victor Zangiev (NJPW 4/24/89) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 6/1/94)
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Long, rambling, overwrought, nit-picky, non-proof read review here -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-463-vintage-negro-casas-of-the-day-18/
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Negro Casas vs. Mocho Cota, hair vs. hair, CMLL 9/23/94 This was the main event from the first weekend of Anniversary celebrations in 1994. A show which only drew 4,000 people; a shockingly poor number for a CMLL Anniversary Show. For some reason, the promotion decided to make it an una caida one fall, presumably because of the glut of apuesta matches they ran over the Anniversary Show weekends. I may as well get my first bias out of the way and confess that, outside of tournament lucha, una caida lucha is something I'd usually turn my nose up at. And an una caida apuesta match is just wrong. It changes the entire psychology. The old Ventura talking point of being up a fall and having the leverage to drop one is thrown out the door, so you have guys refusing to give in to holds they'd ordinarily submit to, which stretches out the match and disrupts the rhythm. Luchadores are so used to working two out of three falls that an una caida match presents a unique challenge. The glass half full perspective would be that it changes the complexion of the match and that it's interesting to see how the workers adapt, but to me an apuesta should be a crowning moment and not an experiment. Casas, playing a pure babyface this year, borrowed Dandy's old trick of being beat up while still wearing a jacket. He wore this stonewashed denim jacket with a picture of a tiger on the back, which was a strange fashion choice for Negro Casas but typified how everything about the bout was a little bit off. He bled immediately, and would have lost the primera caida straight away if this had been an ordinary apuesta bout; but instead there was a prolonged beat down which revolved around Casas injuring his leg on the apron and his ankle buckling when he did a back flip off the top turnbuckle. Cota naturally smelt blood in the water and began stomping on the leg before twisting and contorting it into all sorts of unnatural positions. Cota had been pretty good up until this point, dragging Casas about by the hair and giving him these short knees to the head. Casas was a bit patchy. His selling was okay from a distance, but up close his acting wasn't that flash and the cut didn't look so nasty. I didn't like his attempted comeback either. He was pandering to the crowd with a guillotine move to send that fuzz of Cota hair flying, but it wasn't angry enough. If a guy's beating the crap out of you, it's probably better to strike back instead of playing to the gallery. Call me picky, but it was like watching the shine in a comedy match. (I think that's the first time I've ever used the term "shine." Matt D is rubbing off on me.) Next, Casas loosened the laces on his boot, possibly because his ankle was swelling up and he wanted the doctor to take a look at; it was hard to tell because they cut to commercial then replayed the injury. Suddenly, Casas' boot was off and he was hobbling about with one boot on and an extremely exposed sock. Cota went after it well; kicking at the exposed limb while Casas winced in the corner. He never failed to remind Casas or any of the folks watching that it was a hair match as he grabbed Casas by those greasy locks any time he transitioned from stomping on Negro's foot to putting him in a submission hold. There was a nice touch of Negro struggling to get his footing even when Cota pulled him up by the hair, and to Casas' credit he struggled well while in those holds. Casas was looking for a time out in the corner after taking another mangling in the ropes, and when he slipped out onto the floor, Cota flung his boot into the air. Thus began the mystery of what happened to Casas' shoe, which I became preoccupied with the first time I watched the bout. I liked Cota's strikes in the corner and the knees, and Casas' ineffective attempt at a lariat escape out of the corner, which Cota was able to shrug off and keep on his man. All of this was good stuff albeit utterly dominant from Cota and aching for a payoff. Watching it a second time, I really couldn't fault anything that Cota did in the beat down phase. The issue was with how stretched out the fall was. If you're a fan of limbwork -- and they're out there those limbwork fans -- the consistency with which he targeted the leg and focused his attack on it, while still pulling Casas about by the hair, was impressive heel work. As I said, Casas' selling was good from a distance but looked too much like whining close up. There were times when it looked good and times when it didn't, but it was a difficult proposition for Casas as he was forced into prolonged selling in a situation where he should have submitted a million times over. After a while, it went from being heroic to plain stupid as the beat down wore on for far too long and became something quite unnatural in a lucha libre context. I can appreciate the quality of the work in the passage where Casas threw a punch and Cota shook it off and stomped the crap out of the leg again (and man are his boots cool -- check out the rad hand design), but even Jesus didn't suffer that much on the cross. There's just no way that Casas should have been able to withstand all that. Even if you use the rationale that luchadores usually submit because they have a fall in hand (meaning it doesn't make sense to sustain any further damage) and that in fact they're capable of enduring far more pain if the rules are different, which in this case they were, it was still too bloody long! And do you really want prolonged limbwork in your apuesta matches? Hell no! You want a babyface comeback that's just as violent as the rudo's attack. Apuesta matches are part survival, part revenge, and there simply wasn't enough vengeance in this bout. Anybody who's ever watched a pro-wrestling match knows that Casas is going to win after taking such a beating. It wouldn't be just for him to lose or make much sense in the context of this worked sport. The key then is how satisfying it is. This is where they began to err as instead of Cota getting his comeuppance he continued to take too much of the bout. Even when Casas pulled his old rudo trick of a low blow, and smiled to himself in the ropes, Cota sold it ever so briefly and went after the leg again. There was no breathing space on that at all, and he went to the well again on the pin attempts. Cota was an excellent worker -- even the broken down version you see here. He was a weird looking dude, and that was off putting for people at the time, but the shit he does is cool, like that diving stomp from the second turnbuckle, which is the antithesis of top rope moves during the height of the mid-90s workrate phenomenon. Even so, he wore out his welcome here. The idea behind the finishing stretch appeared to be that Cota had been so utterly dominant that each of Casas' attempts at a counter were brushed aside. And Casas seemed to be playing with the idea that he was badly injured and had taken so much punishment in the bout that a flash pin or a submission out of nowhere was the only way that he was going to realistically win the bout. But Bret Hart playing possum he wasn't and the finish was shit. That's what I'm going to call it -- shit. I put some thought into that and I'm sticking with my choice -- shit. You win on back suplex (into a side slam or whatever it is you call that) when the guy was able to fight the waistlock? And he kicked out right after the three. I mean I hate to sound like Monsoon, but he didn't even hook the leg. How could Casas possibly have held Cota down for a three count on that move? It doesn't make any sense. Cota's brushing aside everything because he hasn't been worn down enough and a back suplex and lateral press is enough? Una caida lucha -- not my thing. Sustained selling and limbwork in lucha -- not my thing. Apuesta matches that are light on blood and don't have great selling -- not my thing. Lopsided bouts that end with ridiculous pinfalls -- not my thing. Cota's limbwork was outstanding if you value that sort of thing, and his rudo performance was more than solid. Casas wasn't at his world beating best, but I don't expect people to be quite as finicky about his performance as I was. It wasn't a great bout, and suffered I thought from an unnatural psychology that greatly hindered what you'd usually expect from a lucha apuestas bout; but it was worth watching for no other reason that it's overlooked Cota, and Cota is a guy where we can basically digest everything we have on tape. The mystery of Casas' missing boot was resolved when an old guy tried to give it to him at the end of the bout. At first I thought he was a member of the public who picked it up and kept it safe until the end of the bout, but then I noticed that he took Casas' jacket from a guy in the front row who helped Negro remove it early in the bout. I guess he was the props guy. Come to think of it, I don't recall either guy having a second, which was odd. My eternal thanks to alexoblivion for providing the bout. I'm sorry it wasn't my cup of tea. I imagine there are plenty of people who would enjoy it more than me particularly if they don't care so much about traditional conventions of lucha libre or they're not so picky about whether Negro Casas is making adequate facial expressions or not. Still, 4,000 for the show. What a disaster.
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Here is a picture of the original company name on a Japanese VHS tape:
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It was originally called the UWF then it changed its name to Universal Pro-Wrestling Co. Ltd. The company generally referred to itself as Universal.
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Here is some info about the original UWF -- http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/shoot/uwf/uwfabout.html It was born out of the 1983 New Japan coup described here -- http://wiki.puroresu.com/Universal_Wrestling_Federation Basically, it was originally envisioned to be a new version of New Japan broadcast on rival station Fuji TV and that's why it was similar to New Japan in both presentation and roster prior to Gotch's students taking over. Hamada's UWF was actually covered the other day -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31220-hamadas-uwf/
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I thought this was extremely good for what they set out to achieve. It was a much more minimalist, stripped back style than the wrestling that was in vogue at the time, and the beginning was largely masochistic with both wrestlers challenging each other to hit them as hard as they could. That might not be to everyone's tastes and was a precursor of a lot of the modern forearm exchange spots, but Tenryu and Hashimoto tend to be a lot more violent. The complexion of the match changed when Tenryu became injured. I thought the commentators did a good job of foreshadowing the knee injury and Tenryu sold it pretty well except for the spot where he was struggling to reach the ropes. Not really a natural spot for Japanese wrestlers that. The crowd was super hot for his comeback which made for a fantastic atmosphere and though some of the stagger selling was weak, this was a much better example of how to do a Cena/Owens match well. Hashimoto was even using Tenryu's moves ala Owens. I really liked how Hashimoto bled from Tenryu's tsuppari attack, and even though in isolation Tenryu's big spots are ugly as sin, with that crowd behind him, the knee injury to overcome and the difficulty in keeping that fat man down you couldn't help but root for him.,
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I thought this was extremely good for what they set out to achieve. It was a much more minimalist, stripped back style than the wrestling that was in vogue at the time, and the beginning was largely masochistic with both wrestlers challenging each other to hit them as hard as they could. That might not be to everyone's tastes and was a precursor of a lot of the modern forearm exchange spots, but Tenryu and Hashimoto tend to be a lot more violent. The complexion of the match changed when Tenryu became injured. I thought the commentators did a good job of foreshadowing the knee injury and Tenryu sold it pretty well except for the spot where he was struggling to reach the ropes. Not really a natural spot for Japanese wrestlers that. The crowd was super hot for his comeback which made for a fantastic atmosphere and though some of the stagger selling was weak, this was a much better example of how to do a Cena/Owens match well. Hashimoto was even using Tenryu's moves ala Owens. I really liked how Hashimoto bled from Tenryu's tsuppari attack, and even though in isolation Tenryu's big spots are ugly as sin, with that crowd behind him, the knee injury to overcome and the difficulty in keeping that fat man down you couldn't help but root for him.,
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I'm in the dark on Psicosis, someone mentioned him for his AAA ork and I asked Zellner who said people spoke highly of his pre-AAA work as well. I guess you could argue that he was great right out of the gate in AAA since there isn't any Baja footage (at least not that I know of.) There is a 1992 Psicosis match on YouTube I might check out if I have time. If we're allowing for unseen footage, Jaguar Yokota was pretty great at an early age and Dynamite Kid was by far the best teenage wrestler I've seen in British wrestling.
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Match Ratings - Doing Away With the Meltzer * Formula
ohtani's jacket replied to Fantastic's topic in Pro Wrestling
That sounds a whole lot like forcing yourself to eat your greens. I can't think of many things worse than watching something I hate so that I can form an objective opinion on it. Having said that, the more I watch a guy I don't like the more I tend to soften on him and in some cases come around on them. I just watched a decent batch of Danny Boy Collins, which amazed me. You do lose that possibility if you succumb to your frustration. -
Psicosis made his debut in 1989 and was around for a good three or four years before anyone saw him so that's a pretty liberal example. Another one people used to mention a lot was Mika Akino.
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In that analogy, Orton would simply be a bad artist, but he would still be an artist.
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Match Ratings - Doing Away With the Meltzer * Formula
ohtani's jacket replied to Fantastic's topic in Pro Wrestling
Can't an El Gigante fan say "I know he sucks but I like him anyway"? -
Match Ratings - Doing Away With the Meltzer * Formula
ohtani's jacket replied to Fantastic's topic in Pro Wrestling
I don't get that Prince example. It's possible to tell whether Prince can find a note if you have musical knowledge. If Primce can tecnically speaking find a note then the person is just talking shit because they don't like Prince's music, which is what people are doing half the time behind the veneer of subjectivity. -
There are Indy workers who will work for nothing just for the opportunity to wrestle just as there are actors who will work for nothing for the chance to act. And when both actors and wrestlers are washed up they'll again work for cheap. They're comparable professions in many ways. I'm sure there have been instances of a wrestler taking a lower pay day to support a promoter in some stage of their career, but it's not an easy analogy to make as the cost of even the tightest Indy budget dwarves a wrestling show.
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Rey was still putting in some good performances in 2010, but I thought the quality of his matches was down on 2009. The Michaels match was okay, but Shawn's selling kind of sucked. I also watched the Undertaker match from the Royal Rumble but it fairly mundane. I think that was a match-up issue more than anything else. Still, Rey vs. WWE legends is another thing I can cross off the list of things I'm interested in. Rey vs. Kidd was the kind of Rey match I like to watch, but Kidd's execution was sloppy and there were too many people at ringside. The Del Rio stuff was okay, but he's a mechanical worker without much soul. I liked the Punk feud, but it wasn't a patch on the stuff with Jericho the previous year. Punk wore his influences on his sleeve, but he did it with conviction and I could appreciate that. I didn't much care for his over acting on the hair match payoff, but that's a standard American interpretation of a hair loss I guess. Their Wrestlemania match was kind of drab, but the rest were solid enough, though the delay during the Over the Limit bout hurt it a bit. Swagger was an awkward match-up for Rey because of the size difference (had no idea Swagger was so long limbed), but their feud was pretty good. Unfortunately, the final image I had of it was a terrible falls count anywhere bout (hate that gimmick) with Kane showing up to chokeslam Rey into the river. Was it me or did he appear at the end of each of their fights?
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[1994-08-05-CMLL] The Headhunters vs Miguel Perez Jr & Ricky Santana
ohtani's jacket replied to Loss's topic in August 1994
Yeah, the Puerto Rican guys fit into CMLL better than just about any other foreigners. They were also good in early 90s UWA. -
That sounds very much like something the world needs to see.
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Artistic works are commodities. There's plenty of people in the music business who see it as a business, as well as in film, TV and any other medium you care to name. The fact of the matter is that wrestling is in the entertainment industry and therefore closely linked to other commodities which are often considered art. There is an "art" to what wrestlers do in terms of craft and the commodity they produce can easily be called a "work." It's not a stretch for it to be classified as a "work of art." The problem seems to be with intent. A wrestler sets out to entertain people, get a reaction from the crowd, maybe get paid more or whatever it is he desires, whereas many people's image of "art" is setting out to paint the Sistine Chapel. Just because it's not of a higher calling doesn't necessarily make it any less of an artform. You can call it pop art or whatever you like. I personally think it's a limited art form (if indeed it is one) that doesn't have the depth of a comic book or even an animated cartoon, but that's because of its storytelling limitations. But it can be visceral and powerful and full of human drama. If it were all about dollars and cents, I'm not sure they would go to those lengths to create such performances. Other forms of show business don't. So, if it's not art it at least borrows from other forms of art -- like narrative and storytelling -- and therefore we can at least say it uses artistic elements even if it's Bobby Heenan doing comedy. I can understand people being careful not to over praise it, but on the other hand I can understand people refusing to undervalue it. Maybe I'll settle on wrestling being pulp fiction.