ohtani's jacket

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS and Satanico I think most people would agree with. Panther is probably the weakest of that group as there are stretches of his career I don't particularly like, but as a wrestler he is more skilled than Atlantis. As a performer, Fuerza is probably better than Atlantis, but if you stacked the best of Atlantis up against the best of Fuerza I'd say it's pretty even. The same is true for Morgan and Emilio. They're in a tier of workers who look good in trios matches but don't have as many memorable singles performances. Morgan's peak on tape is short and Emilio was never the greatest singles worker. Pirata and Fuerza were better apuesta workers than Atlantis, but I think the Panther matches are better than any title bouts I've seen from those rudos. Having said that, Fuerza was carrying guys like Misterioso and Octagon. Still, I'd have them pretty even and mostly at the same level. Solar I could see being better than Atlantis if we had enough footage to go on. I always envision Atlantis being in the same lineage as guys like Solar and Lizmark (i.e. classic masked tecnicos.) A few more title bouts from any point in Solar's career prior to the Navarro series would cement it in my eyes, but like Villano III there is a footage issue. If you take the Villano III footage at face value (i.e. what we have) then it's not better than Atlantis' stuff. Reinvented Negro Navarro (circa 2006) is one of my favourite all-time workers. Based on skill level he blows Atlantis away. But there's no way it's a long enough or strong enough run to put him over peak Atlantis. Terry is the same. On talent both might make my top 10, but if Atlantis worked the maestros circuit more then he might have a whole extra layer to his work as well. It's kind of hard to punish him for having a thirty year relationship with the same company. Chicana doesn't have enough footage and would need someone to properly re-evaluate his 90s output for me to consider him better than Atlantis unless you're talking about presence or charisma. Virus has a whole chunk of his career no-one pays attention to between his minis work and his latter day title match rep, but again appears to have more natural wrestling ability. Parka is kind of the opposite; not as much wrestling ability but a better brawler. Fiera is a guy I'm starting to appreciate more, but as a sleazy rudo and apuesta match worker and not really based on technique. I would be tempted to put the tiers like this: Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS and Satanico Atlantis, Fuerza, Morgan, Emilio Navarro, Terry, Solar, Chicana, V3, Virus Fiera, Parka If it were based on wrestling skill the order would be different: Satanico, Dandy, Navarro, Panther, Solar, Virus EHDS, Casas Atlantis, Fuerza, Emilio, Morgan, V3 Fiera, Parka, Chicana, Terry

A lot of those seem like clear wins to Bret for me. It seems like there's a dividing line between people who've stopped watching the product and people who've continued, though perhaps that's stating the obvious.

The problem was that the Beauty Pair and Crush Girls had been generational. The Beauty Pair lasted from 1976 until 1979 and the Crush Girls from 1984 until 1989. The Matsunagas didn't want to wait another five or six years for a idol team that may not have eventuated. Without the Crush Girls they were at the mercy of Fuji TV with no guarantee of returning to prime time. For a while they tried to create new idols, but eventually they decided to focus on the male puroresu market, and from memory, Rossy Ogawa pushed hard for a greater focus on video production rather than trying to reclaim a prime time TV spot. I guess they didn't forsee the bottom falling out of the male puroresu market, although their debt was so enormous in the end that they probably wouldn't be around no matter what approach they took.

I'd go with Bret. I don't think he was that naturally talented, to be honest, and also worked his way up through the business getting better as he went along, but mostly I struggle with the notion that Cena is a great worker. Even if you argue about his volume of work, he's working at a time when it's easier than ever to put a body of work together. Bret was trying to do the fighting champion gimmick in the early 90s with a vastly inferior roster. If he was around today, I have no doubt he'd make the most of the environment and have a Bryan-esque body of work. In fact, he'd probably shine in the modern environment with its focus on clever spots and continuous moments to a match since he was one of the first guys to add more nuanced spots to the WWF house style like the corner post figure four and so on.

Regarding Atlantis' selling in the Satanico and Faraon bouts, I don't particularly like it either, but it's worth noting that it's from his first two years doing the gimmick and that we don't have a lot of footage from other lucha great teething years. I would also argue that there are times when the other lucha greats have had embarrassing selling such as rudo Blue Panther. Far worse are Atlantis feuds such as the Kung Fu and Mano Negra ones during a period where he was barely post-prime. The latter was especially disappointing. That work during the CMLL dark years really sucked. EDIT: The Kung Fu feud wasn't even post-prime. I just felt like emphasising how bad it was.

I managed to find the list with some random googling: Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS, Satanico, Fuerza, Pirata, Virus, Terry, Navarro, Fiera, Charles Jr., LA Park, Chicana, Solar, V3 Worth discussing.

And that's why we should always have our Spamish speakers around to explain everything.

Jim Breaks vs. Jackie Robinson (8/30/72) This was probably the most technical Breaks match I've seen at least during the first few rounds where they spent a large amount of the time on the canvas. After Robinson took the opening fall, Breaks started backing away a bit and adopted a more defensive approach looking to counter his way into the Jim Breaks special. He really was supremely fit in his younger days with a great physique for a lightweight. During this era, he used to go on cruises and would come back with a full body tan. Walton was somewhat fixated by it and mentioned it about five or six times. There was a bit of banter from Breaks and a few of his old tricks like checking his shoe laces to fool his opponent, but for the most part he was serious about beating Robinson. Robinson had only been a pro for a few years at this point (since the spring of '69, I think), but didn't really look like a youngster. Nevertheless, this was closer to a stock Breaks vs. youngster match than Breaks against a leading contender. For that reason it was a tad lopsided once Breaks overcame the early deficit, but prime Breaks is nothing to sneeze out and man do I wish we had his entire 70s catalogue.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 7 Johnny Kidd vs. Jim Fitzmaurice (4/8/87) This was cool. Jim Fitzmaurice was a diminutive Irishman who could really go and Kidd opted to use more of his mentor Ken Joyce's style than he usually showed in the waning days of ITV. It only lasted three rounds (I suppose because Fitzmaurice was a vet filling in for a younger wrestler who couldn't make the card), but it hearkened back to a time when wrestling this skillful was common place, and if I were to make a comp of the best stuff post-WoS, I would certainly tack this on. Walton mentioned that Fitzmaurice was brought into the business by Bert Assirati, which is interesting. Ken Joyce was the ref, which also added to the spectacle. Wish it gone longer, but a pleasant surprise nonetheless. Battle royal (7/3/86) I don't usually watch battle royals, but this was only a few minutes long and from 1986 so I thought it might be interesting. I was rooting for Studs Lannigan, and if not him then Black Jack Mulligan, who took great delight in beating people up on the outside. The finish came down to "Farmer's Boy" Greg Valentine and Bernie Wright in his Bearcat Wright persona. The promoter's boy took it out, and I'll tell you what, the nepotism dripping from Brian Crabtree's fangs could have burnt a hole in the floor. Giant Haystacks vs. Tony St Clair (Caernarfon, taped 3/14/89) So, it was Tony St. Clair's turn to take on Haystacks, and I guess it was a credit to his standing in the business that it was far from inglorious. He got to put up a fight before his night was over. The Welsh kids loved Haystacks. They were throwing all sorts of shit at him and hurling obscenities then he feigned charging at them and they ran a mile. Talk about getting your money's worth. Stax had the occasional good match over the years. This wasn't the best I've seen, but it was above average. Billy Reid vs. Blue Buchanan (Pontardawe, taped 4/4/89) More boy wrestling. I've got to say the boy wrestling in Reslo was vastly superior to the boy wrestling on ITV, I suspect because these guys went out there and tried to work an indy style match as opposed to Mountevans rules. Reid (or Reed as some matchlists spell it) even did a plancha. Surprisingly good match if you can appreciate young guys doing the basics and putting in some good minutes. Superflies (Ricky Knight & Jimmy Ocean) vs. Gary Clwyd & Tony Stewart (Cardiff, taped 3/30/90) Indy level tag wrestling this. Really rough around the edges. Both teams had garish looking tights, though in the Superflies' case it was deliberate. They were trying hard to have a good match, but it seemed like they were tape watchers and not guys learning strictly on the job. King Ben vs. Ritchie Brooks (Caernarfon, taped 4/6/90) Brooks had a horrendous mullet here and looked like a British Crush. He was doing a heel gimmick, which I don't remember him doing on ITV, but then I skipped a lot of Richie Brooks matches. Ben looked well and truly middle-aged. Pretty innocuous squash.

Dandy faked being fouled (i.e low blowed) while the ref was out of the ring. The jumping around he does is the common way for rudos to feign being fouled. The whole concept behind an apuesta match is that the tecnico is able to fight fire with fight, though this finish took it to an extreme. Satanico got his just deserts as he commonly fouled. I'm not sure if he fouled during the lead in or during the match itself, but he was a dirty wrestler and the finish was supposed to be ironic.

He's wrestling a title match not engaging in a personality contest. Everyone in the building knows what his personality is like just as though understand the conventions of a title match. The Casas/Dandy stuff was more heated because Casas emerged in the company as an immediate rival to Dandy as the No.1 guy around and wasn't afraid to flaunt it in Dandy's face. The Azteca feud was spurred more by Dandy's frustrations that a newer guy was getting the better of him and featured a quasi-rudo turn where he at least flirted with crossing over the over side ala Casas the more he was cheered.

On Twitter, Dylan had a list of 20 or something lucha workers he thinks are better than Atlantis, but I can't find it. It's highly possible that there are, but I'd like to see the list again.

Maybe this belongs in the match criticism thread, but this whole "I wasn't invested in the match" trend is such a cop out. It may be a perfectly legitimate reason for not enjoying something, but as a match criticism? What do you expect? That they wrestle the match some way that makes you emotionally invested? Reading your comments, it's clear that you don't get a lot of things about the style or the match, which appears to be holding back your enjoyment of the bout more than whether it stirred you. And you kept making strange comparisons. What does Dandy/Azteca, or Satanico/Dandy for that matter, have to do with the bouts you compared them to? You're handicapping them right now. Dandy/Azteca compares to other lucha title matches and Satanico/Dandy to other hair matches. There's no reason to compare them outside of their style. I also think you're off comparing 1970s NWA heavyweight wrestling with this weight class. I don't really get where this lack of charisma stuff is coming from either. I have many criticisms of Dandy but a lack of charisma wouldn't be one of them. I just watched the intros to this match and he was charismatic for me during those opening moments. If you've spent a long time watching the guy, know the guy as best you can without speaking Spanish, and know how important this match was to him and how much he wanted to beat Azteca then it resonates a whole lot more than if you're just sitting there waiting for Dandy to show you something.

I always find this a really backhanded comment, as though this is the match that finally looks like something people like.

I've never seen Necro or Tamon Honda, so I can only do the first three. Taue over Terry on the basis that we have hardly anything from Terry's first three decades and what we do have isn't outstanding. In fact, I often come away enjoying José Luis Feliciano more than Terry in those Temerarios bouts. If we're talking about his peak IWRG character work and brawls, then Terry is probably one of my favourite all-time characters, but it's hard for me isolate that run and say it's better than Taue's output. Terry is better on the mat, which is a clear advantage in my books, though aside from his stuff against Hechicero, I think he matches up better with smaller opponents than bigger men or even other maestros, and he's as guilty of your turn/my turn matwork as anyone I've ever seen. His real strength is brawling, but I actually think Taue was a pretty good brawler himself, so I can't even convince myself that Terry deserves to go ahead based on quality of work. I'd also take Hokuto over Morgan. Hokuto is a rare case of someone who actually enjoyed high concept storytelling. Admittedly, some of it is a bit repetitive when you go back and watch it now, but she's one of the few wrestlers I can think of who really achieved storytelling in wrestling and not just a simple narrative without much consequence. I don't like her quite as much as I did when I was first getting into foreign wrestling, but Morgan has maybe five good years on tape. That's not enough to sway me. He was a huge talent though. I think his technical ability is a bit overrated in comparison to his bumping skills and brawling ability, but he was good enough at mat wrestling that you'd have to consider him an all-rounder or what Meltzer would call a complete worker. But something like Hokuto/Kandori is on a whole 'nother level from even vintage lucha apuesta matches, so Hokuto takes this based on the depth of her work and storytelling. I might even take her post-baby work over Morgan's post '93 stuff too. Finally, Steamboat over Finlay even though I feel a bit dirty for saying so. I normally don't like wrestlers like Steamboat -- pure babyface, shoddy acting skills, questionable offence -- but I really like Steamboat at various points of his career and he left on a high instead of sticking around and eradicating the memories of when he was good. Young Finlay was as athletic as Steamboat and a great worker, but the Fit Finlay shtick he developed with Paula ruined about 10 years of his career until he wound up fighting Regal in WCW. I'll accept that the formula made him a star, drew a lot of heat and was responsible for plenty of bookings and more cash in his pocket, but aesthetically it was one of the bigger wastes of talent I can remember. Some of his more recent stuff hasn't held up that well for me either, or maybe I'm just clinging to my enjoyment of his first Riot Squad run too much. The biggest plus he has over Steamboat is that his offence is better. I can't imagine him working face any better than Steamboat could work heel so they kind of cancel each other out in regard to range. Steamboat shone brighter as a babyface compared to FInlay as a heel, so he's my pick.

The Morgan/Volador mano a mano bout from Monterrey that alexoblivion hipped folks to is a worthy companion to the well known Morgan apuesta matches.

Volador vs. Pirata Morgan, mano a mano, Monterrey 1991 Now here's a hidden gem for you: a disgustingly bloody Pirata Morgan bout. I haven't seen a Morgan bout this good in ages. With Morgan, you can draw a line in the sand between the stuff that's good and everything that came after. Fortunately for us, this was during the period where he could rightly lay claim to best in the world, at least in the world he moved in, and still looked as dashing and cavalier as his namesake rather than the inhuman looking wreck that's a tribute to needles and ink and God knows what else. Don't be put off by the fact that it's mano a mano, this was more rounded and complete than a lot of apuesta matches. It had all the elements you want from this sort of bout: pre-match interviews as the wrestlers wade through the crowd with kids, and grown men, trying to mug the camera and get on TV; a dark, dingy arena where there's trash everywhere, and blood... not only on the canvas but all over the filthy yellow floorboards. As a parent, I couldn't notice the kids running around everywhere getting that shit on their shoes. How bloody was the match? It was gross. Maybe not stomach turning; but I used to work in operating theatres when I was younger and dealt with blood on a daily basis and it was still gross. Mostly because it was so dirty and... unhygienic. Not so much the stock stuff like Morgan licking his hand or blowing blood like red mist, but the ref getting Volador's blood all over his white shirt, and the television announcer getting in the ring at the end with his mic cable and wiping his hand on Morgan's cut to show the viewer's at home Morgan's claret; as though he needed to with blood streaming out of Morgan's socket as though he'd been stabbed through the orbital bone. Some people will find the heel ref a distraction as he kept hooking Volador's arm to stop a punch and distracted him while Morgan threw a cheap shot to the small of the back, and there was a bunch of shit with a ref bump and second ref that was straight out of the WWF, but none of it could take away from the fact that this was the type of seedy wrestling that people wax lyrically about when it comes to their love for Memphis brawls or lucha brawling. And it was full of the kind of moments that people like me love to cite when describing what makes lucha special, like Morgan repeatedly attacking Volador's second, Misterioso; the kid who tried to get in the ring after Volador's tope; and the father trying to get his toddler to wave to camera while Morgan bled heavily in the foreground. I also loved the way the fans would toss Volador off them whenever he was thrown in their laps, and how Morgan and Volador kept brawling as the show went off the air. Nothing's ever settled with a mano a mano bout, but the way the crowd gravitated towards them and quickly dispersed as the punches flew was yet another product of a bygone age. This will be right up some people's alley, and I gave you fair warning if it's not, but crucially, it's another piece of prime Morgan that ought to remind you of how good he was in case, like me, you had forgotten or needed reminding.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 6 Andy Blair vs. Lucky Gordon (6/13/84) This had a disproportionate amount of heat in relation to the quality of the work because it was part of some Big Daddy team challenge. If you ever want proof of how over Daddy was, here's a good example as you've got a vet who won't bump or sell for some Scottish kid no-one's ever heard of and they're getting great heat. That was interesting if nothing else. Dave Finlay vs. Danny Collins (Chain match, Beaumaris, taped 3/7/91) At first you're thinking "Chain match! C'mon, make this good Finlay!" and then you realise they're on Welsh TV and the chances of there being blood or the thing being any good are limited, and sure enough this was a fairly subdued German-style Pirate Fight that's more or less a cross between a chain match and a flag match. Could have been better if Finlay had his working cap on, but as I've said many times this was a funny old period for Dave. Johnny Saint vs. Kid McCoy (Machynlleth, taped 2/5/91) This was incredibly banal. Another exhibit in why Johnny Saint really wasn't that good. You would expect, or I would expect, a standout worker to have a good little TV match in under the confines of Reslo's television editing, but there was nothing good about this. Klondyke Kate vs. Taranwen & Tracey Kemp (Newcastle Emlyn, taped 2/5/92) Klondyke Kate was kind of like the British Dump Matsumoto, or I guess for fans living over there, a female version of Giant Haystacks. Since Dale Martin never gave women's wrestling a chance, she barely has any profile online, but I believe she was a consistent presence on the indy scene for a great many years and was one of the more despised heels around. Personally, I find her shtick predictable but she wasn't terrible or anything. The blue eye girls here tried hard, but botched their double team spots badly. Pat Roach vs. Ray Steele (Cardiff, taped 3/30/90) This was rad. These guys may have never had a blow away classic on tape, but they had consistently good matches from the late 70s through to this match in 1990, which is an incredibly long time for any given match-up to deliver. There must have had more matches on tape than just about any other pairing and still I was enamoured with their forearm exchanges, body checks and close-in fighting. The only marring age had left on them was their ability to execute standard British pinfall maneuvers, but the rest of their game rocked. I really thought Roach would struggle in this, but this along with the final ITV match with Martin has changed my opinion about latter day Pat Roach. He had some life in the old legs right up until retirement.

Terry Rudge vs. Pete Roberts (9/11/84) This was a 20 minute bout with no rounds and two falls, two submissions or a knockout to decide it that cut off with a bout three minutes to go. To be honest, I wasn't hugely gutted that the footage was incomplete as neither man was at their best, but it's still Terry Rudge against Pete Roberts and that's as good a match-up as any from mid-80s World of Sport. Walton was underselling Rudge a bit since Roberts was one of Walton (or the promoters') favourites, and Rudge didn't really appear on television enough for Walton to push him too hard, but aside from that distraction there was a neat tactical battle in this that Kent highlighted pretty well where Rudge kept attacking from behind and Roberts was slightly more dynamic. Both men have had better, though.

Cheri Bibi/Eric Husberg vs. Marcel Montreal/Rémy Bayle (1965) This was really good. Unfortunately, there was something wrong with the frame rate so the video was choppy, but if you can get past the slo mo effect it's one of the more accessible catch bouts out there. Bibi looked much better in this than the Cesca match, possibly because he was younger here, but also because everyone was a heavyweight so they gave as good as they got and it was a real bruising encounter. Snappy rhythm even over a 2/3 falls 35 minute bout. Didn't drag once and they didn't pull any punches when it came to dishing out the forearm smashes. If you like the Finlay/Regal/Taylor style you'll like this.

My timing is probably off. Cubsfan has Dandy all over the place in 1990 -- http://www.thecubsfan.com/cmll/wcards/eldandy.php It's probably just the vagaries of CMLL booking.

It's been a long time since I watched that stuff, but my recollection is that Dandy switched to the rudo side during his feud with Azteca and then back to the tecnico side against Satancio. Satanico also turned from tecnico to rudo that year.

Dandy is a rudo in that match, fwiw.

A fair chunk of it was included on the 1990 Yearbook so you might want to go through that. I would recommend watching as much of the lead in as possible, but I can't tell you off the too of my head if any of them are must sees. Dandy's feud with Emilio is probably one of his four major feuds on tape so if you didn't like that then the Satancio stuff is probably a last resort.

I like that there's a dissenting opinion on Dandy, but I think you're allowing your enjoyment of the rudos to cloud your judgement a bit. The rudos are easy to identify with because they're naturally charismatic, but the tecnico role is harder to play, so when you have a guy who plays it well, it makes a tremendous difference to the overall quality of the match, feud or rivalry. Given you don't like the workrate stuff (i.e. the technical style), I'd recommend following one of his apuesta feuds in chronological order from the trios matches up until the apuesta bout. I think that's better than jumping around and watching random matches from a guy you don't really identify with yet. If you don't enjoy the Satanico vs. Dandy feud from 1990 in its entirety, I would write Dandy off.