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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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I liked this a good bit more on re-watch. I still think it didn't do Tanahashi any favours by exposing his striking, but the match moved on from strike exchanges and so will I. I'm not sure this was better than most of Tanahashi's matches psychology-wise. Ishii had some nice little touches where he'd cut off Tanahashi's signature stuff, much like Minoru Suzuki, and I liked his selling, particularly the way he took the bump off that released suplex, but if you're being a stickler then this was very much a bout where they went down one avenue, took a right and went down another. Tanahashi worked over Ishii's legs, got some purchase on the Texas Clover Leaf and then it was off doing suplexes and lariats and High Fly Flows where they'd sell the impact well but pop up to attempt their next finisher. I can ignore that sort of stuff if the crowd is into it and it's not like I'm watching this stuff to get anything of real substance, I just thought the finishing stretch wasn't much different than your standard Tanahashi match.
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Tanahashi vs. Okada, 10/13/13 * This had a solid albeit unspectacular build, but there were two things that were jarring for me. The first was that God awful spot where they were standing toe-to-toe and Tanahashi turned his head to face the crowd. Okada turned his head the same way and they soaked in the crowd applause, then they went right to left with the same synchronized bullshit. That was some weird Rock-like shit. * The other spot that took me out of the match was when Tanahashi faked a knee injury for no discernible reason. Who plays possum that early in a match? It got a pop from the crowd and the commentator made a big deal out of it, but I don't think it came across the way Tanahashi intended because I sure as hell missed the point. * This was a slow burner compared to some of their more highly rated bouts. Compared with their other slow burners (Tokyo Dome and the G-1 draw), I thought they made some headway on working a long bout. I appreciated that they tried new things. There was a greater focus on submissions as a possible finish and they teased both a countout and double knockout. There was the dreaded forearm exchange, but at least it led to some niggly armwork from Tanahashi. * I liked that instead of putting his knees up to counter the High-Fly Flow Okada rolled to the outside (which led to Tanahashi's plancha), but they did the knees up counter later on. Yeah, it's pro-wrestling and all, but they use that spot too often, especially when Tanahashi never misses if his opponent is face down. * I still love Okada's dropkicks and I liked that they factored into the finish. He looked pretty good in this match. Some of his stuff was a bit iffy, but the NJPW television production doesn't help at times. The finish was slightly botched, which stood out like a sore thumb since it was their counter sequence that a lot of people can't stomach, but setting that aside I thought the match did a really good job of presenting Okada as a worthy champion who withstood a strong challenge from the guy he's surpassed. It wasn't my favourite of their bouts, but I thought it achieved its goals. It was somewhere around the four star mark on my adjusted "this isn't as good as the stuff I grew up on, but I'm keeping an open mind about it" scale.
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Most boring wrestler of all time?
ohtani's jacket replied to Mr. Lacelle's topic in Megathread archive
Maybe Virgil could've carried the Rougeaus' bags or been their pool cleaner in Memphis, Tennessee. Or maybe he was the guy telling all the girls the Rougeaus are on their way. -
Most boring wrestler of all time?
ohtani's jacket replied to Mr. Lacelle's topic in Megathread archive
But the angle was rich white guy treats black bodyguard like a slave. If Honky replaces Dibiase does it become Elvis impersonator steals music from black bodyguard? Virgil pens Rhythm and Blues' hits and gets no royalties? -
Most boring wrestler of all time?
ohtani's jacket replied to Mr. Lacelle's topic in Megathread archive
Why would Honky Tonk Man or Valentine have a bodyguard? The feud worked because people wanted to see Virgil turn on Dibiase not just turn face. I don't think anybody gave a crap about a Virgil face turn. -
I'll watch it again in case I was in a funny mood.
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Most boring wrestler of all time?
ohtani's jacket replied to Mr. Lacelle's topic in Megathread archive
Liz and Randy getting married? That was like daytime soap stars going to the altar. I'm in the Boss Man camp but the Virgil stuff was some of the best stuff Dibiase did in the WWF. -
Most boring wrestler of all time?
ohtani's jacket replied to Mr. Lacelle's topic in Megathread archive
Of course it had something to do with Dibiase. Dibiase was brilliant in the Virgil feud. Vince had so little faith in Virgil that he got Piper to be his talking head. -
Tanahashi vs. Ishii, 11/9/13 * I didn't care for this much. It seemed like they were trying to work a revenge/grudge match for Tanahashi's loss to Ishii in the G-1 as there was plenty of niggle and they "stiffed" each other a lot, but striking isn't Tanahashi's forte, and while he again showed his versatility by working a different style of match, it felt a bit forced, especially the crap they were saying to each other in Japanese. * It didn't help that they started off with that forearm exchange spot. That is worse than any chop exchange ever. This one was particularly bad because it was blatant that Ishii was hitting Tanahashi's hair and not his jaw. * Mostly, though, this suffered from not being as exciting as their G-1 match. There was no point in rehashing that bout, so they had the right idea with this match it just pointed too far in the direction of Tanahashi's limitations.
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Most boring wrestler of all time?
ohtani's jacket replied to Mr. Lacelle's topic in Megathread archive
What case for Dibiase? That was part of your thousand and one aborted projects, mister. -
The no selling doesn't really bother me as the limb work is only really there to fill in time and isn't that important. I suppose if Naito had consistently sold his injury the match may have been elevated to the kind of status that some people are giving Tanahashi's matches (i.e. all-time great match), but it doesn't bug me. I'm anti-limb work psychology to begin with, which is another reason why I don't care so much. I should also point out that I thought it was a MOTYC relative to 2013 and not some gold standard for MOTY. Since there has to be a MOTY for the concept to mean anything, I usually adjust my standards. Also, I only watched it once and will probably never watch it again and got caught up in the excitement along with the crowd. Tanahashi's not great at details. The only worker who's been any good at details so far has been Minoru Suzuki. Tanahashi and his contemporaries go for the big pop, but I think the layouts are generally good.
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Tanahashi vs. Anderson, 2/10/13 * This was pretty good. I don't know how good Anderson is usually, but this was the first time for me to see Tanahashi work a more traditional US pro-wrestling build. It's probably fair to say that Anderson provided most of the details since Tanahashi was really selling before launching into his signature stuff, but I'll say one thing for Tanahashi, he's versatile. Because he often gives the body of the match to his opponent he often winds up working his opponent's style and does a pretty good job of it most of the time. * Where this fell apart for me a bit as the finishing stretch or what you might call the final quarter. I thought Anderson, who'd been pretty good up until this point, got caught up in the adrenaline rush of posing and forgot to sell fatigue. The New Japan style is predicated on move after move and close-ups of exhausted wrestlers gasping for air. It doesn't seem like Anderson has mastered that yet. Tanahashi vs. Naito, 8/11/13 * Naito's a weird looking guy. I asked my wife if she knew what was up with this Naito guy and she said that she liked his style. His eyes remind me of Tatsuya Nakadai. * This was a great match except for the part where they did forearm smash exchanges. Then they blew the spot directly after that. That as the first time I've thought that something in a Tanahashi match is awful. * I would have marked out if Naito had won with that submission he had on Tanahashi, but it wasn't to be. There was a nice dragon suplex nearfall shortly afterwards that made up for it, but I would have praised Tanahashi to the moon if he'd tapped in that hold. The actual finish was good, mind you. Was that Kazuo Yamazaki marking out on commentary? * Man, Tanahashi is not afraid to put people over. This was the first time I've seen Naito and I was sucked right in. I can't understand these people who say Tanahashi is a bad wrestler. His matches are almost always exciting. He can't work the mat, he doesn't have great strikes and he's not a details guy, but he's a good worker. A bit repetitive at times, but he's having an outstanding year in terms of maint events. This was a strong four and a half stars, MOTYC.
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Blue Panther/Negro Casas/Atlantis vs. Black Terry/Negro Navarro/Solar, CMLL 8/16/13 This was Blue Panther's 35th Anniversary match so he got to wear his mask again for the night and work with probably the five most recognisable lucha maestros in the business. The most notable thing from a Panther perspective was his opening exchanges with Solar. When I first got into lucha, Solar vs. Panther was supposed to be this legendary match-up kind of like Solar vs. Navarro before You Tube was inundated with Solar vs. Navarro. Later on, when I got wised up a bit, I realised there's not that much Solar vs. Panther on tape and what does exist isn't that legendary. Still, the exchanges here were fun and the type of lucha you don't see a lot of in CMLL these days. This was also a good opportunity to see Terry and Navarro work. There hasn't been a lot of good Terry & Navarro this year, not because they've slipped but because there hasn't been much that's made tape and Terry hasn't had a feud to sink his teeth into, which is the kind of wrestling he excels at as he's a real character actor type of wrestler. I liked that Navarro and Casas tried to get something going between falls instead of this being your typical maestros exhibit, and Terry vs. Casas, for the time that it lasted, looked like a match-up I'd like to see. This isn't essential, but it will appeal to maestros fans. Do yourself a favour and watch the TV version though as the handheld doesn't capture the matwork well. Rush/Terrible/Vangellys vs. Shocker/Negros Casas/Valiente, CMLL 9/3/13 The only reason to watch this is for the Casas/Rush exchanges, but after a slow beginning it picked up with the technicos' comeback. This feud seems to have breathed new life into Shocker and he actually looked pretty good here working between the ropes and not only punching. Vangellys was pretty solid too. It wasn't a match with a huge amount of substance, but they went at a decent clip and there were some cool spots. Valiente had a nice dive. As a weekly kind of Rush vs. Casas installment it was enjoyable. Actually, it was even pretty decent as a Rush showcase. What I'm getting at is that it's a recommendation. Super Porky vs. Rey Escorpion, hair vs. hair, CMLL 10/18/13 The first time I saw this I thought it sucked. Not because it isn't the bloodbath that I think cabellera contra cabellera matches should be, but because it sucked as a worked shoot. I didn't expect it to be RINGS and I braced myself for the fact that it was Super Porky and Rey Escorpion trying to do a worked shoot, but I still thought it sucked. Watching it again, I don't think it sucked. It wasn't any good, but there were a couple of spots I thought were okay. Still, it's not something they should ever try again. At least not with Porky or best two out of three falls.
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When did Ric Flair start to "Wooooooo!"?
ohtani's jacket replied to Wolfman's topic in Pro Wrestling
According to Flair, he did it first in 1974 and got it from the Jerry Lee Lewis song Great Balls of Fire, and as we all know Flair is never wrong about these things. -
Tanahashi vs. Shibata, 8/11/13 * This was my least favourite Tanahashi match so far. The style clash did nothing for me. Tanahashi did all right considering that matwork and strikes aren't really his forte, but Shibata is a poor shoot style worker. I'm pretty pig headed about what I like in shoot style, but I don't buy his shit for a second. He reminds me of a shitty UWF-i style worker. If anybody thinks he's good suggest some matches.
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The Beginner's Guide To British Wrestling
ohtani's jacket replied to ohtani's jacket's topic in Megathread archive
Axel Dieter vs. Pat Roach II (Hannover 1981) These two fought three times during the 1981 Hannover tournament. The first two matches ended without a winner and Dieter won the final match. This was one of the matches without a winner. Whether it was the first or the second, I'm not sure, but try as they might they didn't seem to have a great match in them. Roach dominated most of the bout before Dieter made a comeback in the final fall and the match ended with Dieter continuously throwing Roach over the top rope, presumably after time had expired. I love Pat Roach, but he couldn't deliver the same sort of beating as Moose Morowski. I'm guessing it's a stylistic difference between North America and England, since outside of the halls they never really brawled in England. Some of the finer details may have been better in close-up, but I wouldn't rank this stuff among the better moments of Pat's career. Dieter won the Hannover World Cup five or six times, which in my mind makes him like the German Tibor Szakacs, who won the Royal Albert Hall Tournament Trophy five times, but much like Szakacs we have nothing from Dieter's prime and he comes across in these '81 Hannover matches as having about as much charisma as Ray Steele. Axel Dieter/UFO vs. Ed Wiskoski/Moose Morowski (Hannover 9/15/81) This was probably the best tag match I've seen from Europe covering as much 60s-80s footage as I can find. It's probably no surprise that three out of the four competitors are North American. Christ knows why it had to go so long. Thirty minutes plus without a winner and without the hot finish it needed to be a surefire nomination for the Europe set, but still it was a proper tag match. Funnily enough, they didn't apply Southern style tag psychology, it was just solidly worked instead of being treated like some kind of amazing stip match where there's no wrestling. Portland fans may be interested in Wiskoski's work, perhaps. -
Isn't there a possibility that they would have stuck with Race?
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Tanahashi vs. Ishii, 8/2/13 * First time to watch a Tanahashi match against someone not named Okada or Suzuki. * This was a good match. Ishii strikes me as a younger, more mobile version of Suzuki. He hasn't got the same maestro aura as Suzuki, but he's got more high end offence, which is how he put Tanahashi away. His victory was probably the best thing about this, as I thought they did a fantastic job of going beyond the beat of where Tanahashi would ordinarily go on to win and having Ishii take his chance. Tanahashi again sold well and put Ishii over strongly. * I thought this was a feather in Tanahashi's cap, but you look at the WON rating and it's **** 3/4. That's insane. It's closer to *** 3/4 while still being a really strong performance. Tanahashi may be overrated, but it's not his fault.
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How good were the Misioneros supposed to be work wise? From the footage we have, they don't look as good as the Brazos or Infernales.
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Tanahashi vs. Suzuki, 1/4/12 * Here's an example of a match with a stronger build. They worked out of a side headlock to begin with, then there was a bit of niggle and Suzuki took control of the match, working Tanahashi over and cutting off his comeback attempts. I didn't love the ramp stuff, but it served its purpose. Suzuki looked far better in this match than he did in their October bout and was much more of a "maestro." He even paid homage to Fujiwara by copying his headbutt style. Tanahashi sold the beating well and this was probably the most solid of his matches so far in terms of substance. * Where the match went astray was Tanahashi's big finish. Suzuki cut off his comeback attempts two or three times during the course of the match, but it was obvious that Tanahashi was going to nail him with a bunch of big moves and win the match. The cut-off spots were really good with Suzuki finding imaginative ways to cut off some of Tanahashi's signature stuff, but the finishing stretch seemed slightly off. It wasn't so much that it was unrealistic for Tanahashi to reel off a bunch of moves and suddenly Suzuki is as damaged as him. I get that wrestling trope. It just wasn't timed as well as it could have been. I think if you took the finish to the Oct match and tacked it on to the body of the Jan match you'd have a great match. * This was still pretty good, though. I'd say it topped out at around 4 stars. It was very much a Suzuki performance (moreso than their Oct match, IMO), but Tanahashi sold well. He likes to work light, but he did work slightly stiffer against Suzuki. His shovel punches are slightly better than his forearms.
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Interview with a Coliseum Video producer
ohtani's jacket replied to Stuttsy's topic in Pro Wrestling
I'd also like to see some clarification on Evart and A & H Video Sales Representatives and who was responsible for what. -
Tanahashi vs. Okada, 8/12/13 * The beginning of this was weak. It seems these two can't fill in time unless they do limb work. Here they drifted in and out of limb work to fill in the first two thirds of a 30 minute draw. I'm no fan of the 30 minute draw, even in the old Champion Carnival days, so I don't care if you have to go out there and kill a bunch of time, but these guys would be so much better off if they could work the mat. Tanahashi working over Okada's arm to weaken the Rainmaker isn't compelling when you've already seen it two or three times, and I'm sick of that Okada guardrail spot. That's a crutch if ever I saw one in wrestling. If they can't work the mat, and it doesn't seem like that can, just have Okada beat Tanahashi up for a sustained period of time and have Tanahashi sell, instead of this even stevens business they partake in. * Okada looked off here. Little moments of hesitation and awkwardness. I'm not sure he's all that comfortable in his frame. He has to bend over a lot and it leads to a lot of that awkwardness. I'm not sure he's got the hang of how to work big and how to work small. * The first two thirds were forgettable, but the final third was enjoyable. If this was joined in progress for the final 12 or 15 minutes, I'd probably have a higher opinion of it. It seemed like they worked some new moves into their finishing stretch. The tit for tat stuff is their major strength and they're able to lace it with some terrific nearfalls. The final attempt at the Rainmaker as time expired was better than 99% of how all 30 minute draws end. * Overall, it wasn't that interesting. I'm not even sure it was better than their Tokyo Dome match. Maybe three and a quarter stars.
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Japan is the second biggest market for pro-wrestling in the world so it deserves a fair degree of representation. The trouble with borderline candidates going in is that they require less overall votes to gain 60% support and with most of the major candidates already in the Hall there's plenty of elbow room for fringe candidates. It wouldn't surprise me if Taue and Akiyama both get in since they look much stronger on a ballot with Han, Tamura and Hamada than they would on earlier ballots. I'm not sure what you can do about it, though, short of no longer inducting Japanese candidates. If you removed the geographical element and required them to get 60% on the overall ballot, they wouldn't get in, but then there might not be any inductees. I suppose the voters could always refrain from voting, but I think it's clear that people are going to vote for Japanese candidates from here on out regardless of how good business is.
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Why are Blue Panther and Satanico on the cover? That is them, right? If so, where is the lucha section? Does he agree with me that Satanico is the greatest lucha worker of the tape era? Is Blue Panther better off without the mask? Will Cien Caras ever make the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame? El Dandy so underrated he's overrated?
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Some of this we can piece together. The time slots were as follows: NJPW 4/6/73 to 9/26/86, Fri 20:00-20:55 (later 20:00-20:54) 10/13/86 to 4/6/87, Mon 20:00-20:54 4/7/87 to 9/87, Tue 20:00-20:54 10/5/87 to 3/88, Mon 20:00-20:54 4/88 to 4/93, Sat 16:00-16:54 4/93 onward, Sat 0:00-00:54 (later 0:00 to 0:30) AJPW 10/7/72 to 3/31/79, Sat 20:00-20:55 (later 20:54) or 23:45 to 0:39 (depending on baseball) 4/79 to 9/85, Sat 17:30 to 18:24 10/19/85 to 3/26/88, Sat 19:00-19:54 4/3/88 to 4/1/90, Sat 10:30-11:26 The ratings are probably available from Video Research at a cost.