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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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Speaking of Bret matches, I just watched the Bret/Austin match from South Africa. It's solid enough, kinda like a pre-cursor to their Survivor Series match. But it doesn't offer much proof that Bret could wrestle different kinds of matches or was the great storyteller that he's meant to be.
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The flower ceremonies and trophy presentations are just part of the work. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say they pinched it from sump. At the end of every tournament, the sumo champion receives multiple trophies and prize money from sponsors. You sometimes see Japanese wrestlers get "prize money" in envelopes and those big fake checks from sponsors.
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Strong style was a fighting style, not a booking style. It's not entirely wrong to call shoot style promotions "strong style," as that was the original intent of the UWF. You have to remember that New Japan is a company that had several different bookers over the years, whereas All Japan was consistently booked by Baba up until his death. The All Japan style that you're talking about was coined in the early 90s and was a stylistic shift away from what Baba felt he could no longer book (i.e. touring American champs, brawls and DQ finishes.) Obviously, there was an ideology behind the All Japan style, but it was prompted by a change in booking, whereas shoot style was purely ideological. Strong style was in part a con or a carnie thing, but the workers took it seriously, which is why you see pro-wrestlers trying to win MMA fights listing their background as pro-wrestling and not amateur wrestling. Japanese wrestlers have always been a little senstive about anyone who calls pro-wrestling fake.
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Dandy/Faraon/Lizmark v Casas/Pierroth/Brazo de Oro, 6/22/92 Casas v. Dandy; whoever booked this feud had a rare stroke of genius. It only just occurred to me how early this was in Casas' run. By booking Dandy as his first opponent, it brought Dandy out of a slump and saw Casas leapfrog his way to the top. The booking itself was fairly simple. Casas and Dandy had a bunch of exchanges where neither guy came out on top, and therefore a singles match was a must; but it was remarkably well played by Casas. Just because you're two of the best, doesn't mean you have chemistry. With a guy like Satanico, there was always a hint that he was the superior worker in every feud he had, but Casas didn't mind if the other guy looked better. Skills wise, he and Dandy were evenly matched; and in fact it was Casas who pushed a lot of the action, but Dandy was content to kick back and ride out the early exchanges. If there was an opening, it was going to come later in the match, so he was prepared for that and was in no rush to pin back the shoulders. More often than not, it was Casas who resorted to a pushing and shoving contest, which, as Jose's little old ladies would tell you, was a sign that Casas felt more evenly matched than Dandy. As a competitor, Casas knew Dandy was good. As a rudo, his first instinct was that technicos are bullshit. The line he tread between competitiveness and his rudo instincts was really quite superb. He would've dearly loved to have beaten Dandy cleanly, but cheating was in his blood. It ran through his veins; he'd do it and pass the whole thing off as being the better worker anyway. What was cool about this trios, however, was that it was one of those nights where they get heat for the main guys, but the secondary guys step up and get even more heat, which means you save your main match-up for another bunch of trios. In this case, it was El Faraon who was all fired up and looking to hand Pierroth; and if you're familiar with Pierroth and Faraon, you'll know that's a very good thing. There was also a subplot about Brazo de Oro having respect for Dandy's abilities, which Pierroth thought was ridiculous, and it led to the rudos turning on him unceremoniously. Another cool touch was seeing Casas/Lizmark exchanges, which is the first time I've seen those guys work together. All these subplots and through-lines is what makes trios wrestling so great. Someone should put all these matches together and make a custom comp. There you go; there's an idea for somebody. Santo/Azteca/Muneco v Satanico/Parka/Psicosis, AAA 1994 RagingNoodles is the king of finding good AAA matches. Angel Azteca has always been a guy I've been fixated with, since in the earliest lucha I watched, they were really building him up as the next great technico, then suddenly -- POOF -- he was barely on TV anymore. If you watch all that TV from '89 and 1990, you'll wonder what the fuck happened to him. Here he is popping up in a '94 trios and he has an unbelievably great exchange with Satancio. Like all great lucha exchanges, it wasn't well worn spots, but creative and completely original stuff. The rest of the match was standard AAA fare, with up tempo rope work and a whole through-line about Tirantes not supporting the rudos, but it was never short of entertaining and I was amazed by how well Super Muneco hung with these guys. Unless he had a bloodbath in Monterrey or somewhere, he's pretty much useless, but he bobbed and weaved his way through this match and it was pat on the back stuff. Engendro v. Solar v. Negro Navarro, 12/13/08 These triangular matches are a little odd; they're basically one-on-one and you can tag out anytime you like, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but since this had a whole bunch of maestro matwork, it didn't really matter. The early exchanges between Navarro and Solar were the type of matwork that never gets old: it can never get old, since it's the single most skillful thing about professional wrestling. But you've seen it all before and read all about it -- the real story here was Engendro. Engendro's a weird looking guy. I can't figure out if he's the least looking guy to rule it on the mat, or the most likely. I suppose matwork was such a staple of Engendro's era that he was able to work his way through mat exchanges, even if he wasn't the most skillful guy. The Solar/Engendro exchanges in this were really great and the match-up was fresh. I was a little disappointed when Engrendo was the first to go, since Solar and Navarro are inexplicably poor at ending for their singles matches. This was no different, but the match was two thirds goodness.
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Having a formula isn't something that's unique to wrestling. There's been plenty of film directors who've made the same film over and over again; musicians who've made the same album; actors who've given the same performance; and writers who've told the same story. It's not necessarily a bad thing. If you produce consistently great work, the critics tend to call it an oeuvre and get excited when they find a body of work that has strong, centralised themes running through it. Some artists are more experimental, but I don't think there's many people who enjoy every phase of Miles Davis' career, for example, and sometimes being eclectic just means you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, like the American film director Howard Hawks. In the case of Ric Flair, I think there's been a tendency among hardcore wrestling fans to seek out new things in recent years. The wrestlers who I've really explored in recent years have been Satanico, Fujiwara, Jim Breaks and a host of other old-school luchadores. For others it might be Memphis, Mid-South, Backlund, 80s WWF, whatever. There's been an inclination towards the "new", even if the new wrestling is in fact extremely old. What makes it exciting is that there hasn't been a lot written about that stuff. When I discover a new Satanico match or a new Jim Breaks match, it really is a discovery. Someone else may have unearthed the match, but few people will have written about it. It's not like when we were getting into All Japan and we had John's list as a sort of Bible to go by. And I guess in every hobby, people are always looking for new things to appreciate. I know I'm at the stage where I would rather watch a Hiroshi Shimizu or Heinosuke Gosho film than Ozu or Mizoguchi. So, in many ways, Ric Flair is "old hat." Everything that can be possibly written or said about Ric Flair has already been done, even if Loss and John's posts were excellent. Personally, I still enjoy a bit of Ric Flair every now and again, but the big thing for me is whether I find it cool. Up until a certain point, he is. I used to think '89-90 was the cut-off point, but going back and watching that stuff his face stuff in '89 kinda grates on my nerves and his heel turn is more or less the killer, aside from the stuff against Luger, which I enjoyed. The Memphis stuff with Lawler, on the other hand, was a blast. But the older he got, the less cool it became. Kinda like the type I went to see James Brown a few years before he died, compared to 1968 footage on youtube. (And I always thought the James Brown/Ric Flair comparison was a good one, aside from the soul/r&b transition into funk.) Most people's work declines with age, but the question for me is whether Flair could've had a different kind of phase or was he forever typecast as the Nature Boy? It's easy to say that Hogan had a different phase as a heel, because he was a babyface for so long. It's the same with Jumbo. His position slowly changed over the years and he moved with the times as his opponents got hot. But Flair flip-flopped so many times between heel and face and had commentators like JR say the same shit everytime, that I can't imagine a different sort of Nature Boy. A lot of heels in Flair's era were perfect gentlemen when they were faces and maniacs where they were heels, but Flair was always kinda Flair, whether you loved him for it or hated him for it. So, I'd argue that he typecast himself and eventually it became a kind of parody. As for the over-exposure issue, there may be some truth to it, but at the end of the day it depends how much you like a worker. People have set ideas about Flair like they do about many other workers. Let's take Toyota for example. There's a lot of set ideas about her that will never budge. A big Toyota fan could watch hundreds of her matches and probably find differences in her work, subtle or otherwise, but a person with set ideas about her is not going to watch hundreds of her matches. The thing about Flair's work is that it's never gonna change, because it was recorded a long time ago, so I dunno if there are any new ways of looking at Flair. You either think it's good or you don't. Even if you find different kinds of Ric Flair matches, how many are there? A dozen? More? Less? I'm sure that's enough to change the overall impression of Flair as a worker. It's like the different Bret Hart matches that are remarkably similar to other Bret Hart matches. It's not like you're gonna find a Flair match where he does quasi-shoot style matwork. But I agree that it's definitely less mysterious than old-school lucha or any other style that didn't have a lot taped. Perhaps the test will be whether John burns out on Backlund.
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Mascarita Dorada vs Pequeño Damian 666, Lucha Fiesta, 3/20/09 I've never been a big fan of lucha in Japan, aside from the 70s when Baba would bring in guys like Mil Máscaras, Dos Caras and Dr. Wagner. The UWF stuff I could never get into. The crowds always felt the need to do something, whether it was booing or cheering, and the hardcores were more interested in the masks, which still fetch a price if they were actually worn. But I was surprised by how well this got over. I haven't seen anything from the minis this year, and only really watched this to see how Pequeño Damian is doing, but it was cool. It was the same length as a lightning match, and could've easily turned into a juniors style match, but Damian gave a really solid rudo performance and the response didn't sound canned at all. In fact, Damian jawing with a fan is probably the closest you'll get to a Japanese guy acting like a front row fan at Arena Mexico. And Dorada was outrageously good, pulling off all these awesome spots that make you say, "fuck the old school." Well, for five seconds anyway. But seriously, he was really good. He span like a record at the end and the crowd gave him plenty of coin. He came across like the miniture star that he's supposed to be, and Pequeño Damian might as well be Pequeño Virus the way he carries a Dorada through awesome exchanges. The different camera angles were cool too, especially the one that showed just how far Dorada leapt from the turnbuckle. It's pretty far when you're that small.
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That was a great series and I imagine you could make a lot of stories out of it. One of them would be the overtimes, but overall it was about the defending champs without their pivot guy and a young team that was shooting the lights out, which you could pretty easily turn into a wrestling story. With All Japan, for example, the fans knew Misawa's character and they knew Kawada's character. Moreover, they knew the relationship between the two. So the moves had a lot of meaning outside of building to the finish and popping the crowd.
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Valiente vs. Virus, Match Relámpago, 4/3/09 These two guys have gotta be the best workers in CMLL right now. I've been thinking lately about why their match-up is so good, and I wanna say that it's the old adage that styles make fights. Virus has bulked up a lot since he became a regular sized worker and likes to lead with the shoulder; Valiente prefers the armdrag. Virus uses his strength to lift guys off the mat; Valiente works counters and reversals. Virus is an excellent rudo foil; Valiente a beautiful high flyer. What makes it beautiful is that Valiente has the size to lay in the shots and Virus has the agility to match him hold for hold. It's like a "mini" version of Casas/Dandy in that they have the ability to mix it up any which way they like. I haven't seen two many Relámpago matches, so I don't know how you work a good one, but I figure you put some exchanges together and go for the win. I'm a little skeptical whether this type of match can ever be great, but they tried. I've seen them have better exchanges in trios matches, but trios matches are about pairing off and a cool spot like Virus' apron bump would see another pair take over. There's no time for resonance in this sort of match, so they kept at it. I'm not sure it swung in Virus' favour enough, but how to you stop Valiente right now? The man is hot. Since styles make fights, it would be interesting to see a return match between these guys. Lightning matches are probably the only way we'll see them go mano a mano, but it's what we've been begging for. I kinda doubt Virus could win without cheating, but Lord knows I wanna see how he'd counter him next time. Make it happen CMLL.
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You can't tell a story like you usually would, but you can give it an arch. It's like a Laurel and Hardy film. At the beginning they're in a certain situation; they make a plan, a whole bunch of shit happens, and their situation changes. Laurel and Hardy never change, only their circumstances. Not too long ago, I was watching a Satanico match where his behaviour at the beginning was markedly different from his reaction at the end, because the circumstances had changed. You know in the next match he'll revert back to character, because he'll only change if they turn him technico, but you can make something of it. The bigger the arch, the greater the drama. I actually think lack of change is something that hurts a lot of wrestlers. There's been a lot of great performers in wrestling who haven't had great depth to their characters. And there's been others, who when their stock "story" does change, haven't been able to adapt. Very rarely do wrestlers change their archetype as they get older or have a character that's timeless. Obviously you can't expect a wrestler's character to change after every big match, but if you look at wrestling as a serialisation, there's more character development in most soap operas. It's not a criticism. They've gotta go out there and adlib something night after night for a different audience. It's a worked sport with a bunch of theatrics.
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I don't really get what you're saying here. The wrestlers use moves to tell the story, but they're not the actual story. A story always begins with characters and a theme. After that, you plot it out. Whenever people get carried away about All Japan finishes, it always seems like they're describing the plot and not talking about the story. Even if you can find a trope to describe the finish, I think it misses the point, because that trope is specific to the match. If it weren't specific to that match, then it would come across as a cliche or a parody. The most important thing in wrestling stories is not how the wrestler won the match, but why the wrestler won the match.
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I don't think they're so disimilar. The audiences know the characters and know why they're fighting. Everything else is just plot points to tell the story. The details may differ, but at the end of the day it's all pretty universal stuff. I don't know if your comments about All Japan are entirely true. There were angles and promos and stories heading into the big matches. I mean any match you build to is a payoff, right? At it should be. Even shoot style promotions couldn't resist that type of booking, and they were the closest wrestling has come to the actual work being the story and the outcome being less predictable. There's a lot of people who get heavily into the play-by-play at the end of a big epic All Japan match, but to me Kawada kicking out of one move and Misawa having to do another isn't the story. A great sportswriter doesn't tell the story like that, even if the finish to a sporting event is memorable. Anyway, back to the original point. I'd argue that the five moves of doom was part of the characterisation of Bret Hart being the Excellence of Execution. I can't think of a Bret Hart match where it was a big story point, other than being part of his overall thing -- i.e. his whole Gretzky gimmick and how that played into his babyface role.
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Black Terry, Cerebro Negro y Dr Cerebro vs Negro Navarro, Trauma I y Trauma II, 4/23/09 There's been a lot of "lost lucha" over the years, but not this feud... Chapter four started off with a lengthy mat sequence between Black Terry and one of the Trauma kids. It wasn't a bad mat sequence, but it was fairly typical of IWRG matwork in that the guy applying the hold allowed for a reset, which to me isn't much of a mat contest. I realise that it's largely about machismo and letting the other guy know you've got the upper hand, but they trade holds a bit too evenly. If you watch some great trios matwork, you'll notice that one worker dominates the mat for several exchanges at a time before the other guy shows his wares. Terry's a bit too generous, which, to my mind, lessens whatever impact there is in the age and experience gap and the fact the Cerebros are champs. Nevertheless, the matwork was more than perfunctory and I thought the Trauma kid, whichever one it was, had a far better stance than usual. Lately, these guys have been working a lot of individual exchanges, but this saw a bit of a departure from that. Trios wrestling actually came into play, with the champs deciding to use the numbers. The Navarro family fought back in an aggressive manner and I guess the big story here was that Negro was in no mood to be fucked with. This was presumably because Terry low blowed him in the previous match; if in fact we're allowed to give wrestlers the benefit of the doubt that they follow-up on their previous matches. Anyway, Negro was surly here. You could see it early on when Terry had his kid in a hold, and he was staring at it like, "fuck, is that all?" Negro's been threatening to cut loose in recent weeks and maul someone, which we know he can do 'cos he's a monster, but it was actually one of his kids who got the best shot in. He nailed Terry with a wicked kick, which left me in two minds about whether it really connected. It was all business from there -- Negro was in no mood to be fucked with and the Cerebros were a little disorganised, so it wrapped up quickly. The eminent mike187 says this was a MOTYC, but I dunno if I'd go to the wall for a MOTYC that doesn't have a big finish. In fact, this feud reminds me a lot of the old Infernales/Intocables feud in that every match is entertaining but none of them stand out as classics. Still, I dunno when we'll be seeing new IWRG, due to the swine flu, which made its way back home to New Zealand. So, we might have to wait a while for the next part in the serial. In the mean time, enjoy the shoot kick action.
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Yeah, that's not much of a story either.
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If I am getting it: It's basically the concept that we have certain elements we use in putting together a story, and that those elements tend to be common across storylines. You pick and choose "tropes" when building the story. So, in wrestling a story is put together using a heel manager or a specific finisher or a Heel/Face conflict or whatever. Understanding after the fact how the story was put together can sometimes help to make better stories down the road. Eh, telling a story in wrestling isn't about five moves of doom or a finisher. The moves are used to tell the story, but they're not the story themselves. Thematics, structure and archetypes are far more important. The fact that Bret used the same five moves in every match is enough to tell you that's not what the story is about. Sorry if I'm rambling, but this has long been a pet peeve of mine. Bret's a guy who used a lot of actual tropes -- I mean thematic tropes -- and it bugs me when people say, "they worked a story where one guy worked over the other guy's arm." What kind of a story is that?
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God that tropes website gave me a headache. Somebody explain to me what five moves of doom or finishing moves actually have to do with telling a story.
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Black Terry, Cerebro Negro y Dr Cerebro vs Negro Navarro, Trauma I y Trauma II, Distrito Federal Trios Championship, 4/16/09 This is the third Terribles Cerebros/Dinastía Navarro match to find its way onto youtube in the past few weeks and lo and behold there were multiple versions of it. Watching the handheld copy, I wasn't that impressed, but the televised version ended up being far more enjoyable. In a longer, mat-based match like this, there are a lot of details which you can only pick-up on with the camera in close, and switching angles not only provides you with a fresh perspective, but shows the work from the dominant side. This was a long-ish title match with two solid falls of matwork. The biggest difference between uploads was Terry's work. It was a lot better than I originally thought, so I didn't pick up on the injury theme. Terry's a guy who's been looking noticeably older in the past few weeks and I haven't been overly impressed with his work against the Navarro kids. At first I thought it was the size difference, since Terry was going great guns against both Turbo and Freelance, but watching this two or three times it's clear that the Traumas ain't no chip off the old block. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only time they're interesting on the mat is when they're working with Dr. Cerebro. With Cerebro, they can tie each other up in knots and do all sorts of wacky submissions. In fact, Cerebro's work here was reminiscent of when he first came to attention; prior to losing his mask. Terry's more of a takedown guy and I don't think Navarro's kids are particularly good from a vertical base. Working with Cerebro allows for constant movement and mat "highspots"; and if there's one thing younger workers crave, it's highspots. The first two falls were good. If I had any criticisms it would be that they were kinda slow and didn't have the greatest rhythm, but they made up for it with some heavy duty selling, which you don't always see in lucha, and their new found love of chokeholds. Negro Navarro was badass in that respect and his submission finisher in the first fall is one of the highlights of my lucha viewing this year. The third fall was a bit of a waste, since it was clearly designed to set-up the revancha, but the build-up to Terry vs. Navarro was interesting. It was a bit lighthearted at first, as Navarro, in a former life, was often times a comedy bumper (if you can believe that), but things grew serious in the final fall. They had this fantastic exchange where they were beating the living daylights out of each other; Terry contemplated tagging out, but thought better of it and circled back round. If they'd gone back out it, it would've ruled, but these guys haven't quite reached the MOTYC level that some of us are hoping for. So, yeah, good match, but I keep thinking there's more where this came from.
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Centella de Oro, Sensei & Starman vs. Espíritu Maligno, Inquisidor & Pólvora, 4/6/09 Spirited Puebla opener, this time in front of a full house. Centella de Oro and Espíritu Maligno are two guys you need to check out whenever they make TV. The match wasn't overly special, but the work was smooth and the larger attandence helped. Blue Panther/Maximo/El Hijo Del Fantasma v. Negro Casas, Felino & Heavy Metal, 4/10/09 This was entertaining. I dunno if I'll ever get used to Blue Panther without a mask, but he looked sharp here and had some great exchanges with both Casas and Felino. This was the first time I've enjoyed the Casas brothers' comedy act, which is so sketch based that it breaks kayfabe. I can deal with the stop/start stuff if the actual work is good. Maximo is one of the stranger exotico gimmicks I've seen, and while I'm not inclined to check out the rest of his work, he was OK here. Heavy Metal, on the other hand, did nothing. Máscara Dorada, Metro & Valiente vs. Okumura, Skándalo & Virus, 4/17/09 Dorada, Metro and Valiente are rapidly becoming a must-see trios. The Valiente/Viruse exchanges in this match were incredible. Those two guys are the best match-up in Mexico right now, and Valiente is making a push for worker of the year, but the encouraging thing is how well the others are doing. They're hitting their spots cleanly and making smart decisions on offence. When you've got guys clicking and backing each other up, that's when you can fully enjoy the Valiente spots. That tope spot was hot buttered. I tell you what -- CMLL is far less offensive when you watch it on youtube.
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Wasn't the Sakuraba fight after he was inducted? A lot of Dave's connections are in the press, right? They were extremely supportive of Pancrase.
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You've got to be a little careful when talking about the history of wrestling in Japan, because there's never been anything definitive written about it in English. It was first staged in 1887, which was a long time before the war. They failed throughout the 20s to promote pro-wrestling in Japan and the first efforts after the war weren't promoted by Japanese. Originally it was entertainment for US servicemen. I do not think that Funaki was ever seen as an elite world athlete and I don't agree that PANCRASE was a Fujiwara offshoot. I wouldn't give Fujiwara any credit for PANCRASE. They couldn't have been further apart ideologically.
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What does this mean?
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Funaki was the man in 1996.
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Satanico vs. Super Astro, mano a mano, 1984 Satanico's hair was awesome in this. I wasn't digging his work to begin with. It was good, but not the genius you'd expect from Satanico. And I thought they made a mistake giving the first fall to Super Astro, especially since he turned on a dime to make his comeback, instead of fighting his way out of a corner. They went straight back to the beatdown, which isn't the overlap you'd expect, but the third fall was really good. Super Astro made a brawling comeback, and as we all know, brawling comebacks are where Lopez kicks it up a gear. Super Astro bit his forehead open and the maestro was incensed. That's when the genius began to emerge -- they dropped the cliched story of the technico not being big enough and fought it out. I always thought Super Astro was a worker who couldn't use his fists, but he pelted Satanico a couple of times and turned his tope into an awesome headbutt. They did this really cool spot where they were trading blows on their knees and Super Astro bent all the way back, touched the mat with his head and popped back up with a headbutt. The finish wasn't the greatest, but the lead-in was vintage Satanico. There was a great visual of him pulling on a hold -- blood pouring from his head, spit flying from his mouth. Just a fantastic image of the effort needed to win a match. He's a guy who put so much into his finishes. You watch a Satanico match and his selling tells the whole story. It doesn't matter whether you're in the front row, back row or sitting at home, the guy was just a genius at selling. And he understood structure and the need for an arch. He'd clue you to why he lost, then bullshit himself and everyone else. Just a hell of a performer.
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Black Terry, Cerebro Negro y Dr Cerebro vs Negro Navarro, Trauma I y Trauma II, 3/28/09 There was something a bit off about Terry's matwork in this match and even Navarro was a bit skew-whiff. I'm not sure that he should out and out dominate Dr.Cerebro like that. The match stayed on an even keel, but the only explosive moments where when Terry and Navarro brawled and even that wasn't outstanding. I think they're building to a title match, so we can live in hope, but shorter mat sequences with the Navarro kids and more of a focus on Negro vs. Terry would probably help.
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Mascara Dorada, Metro, Valiente vs Euforia, Nosferatu, Virus
ohtani's jacket posted a blog entry in Great Lucha
Mascara Dorada, Metro, Valiente vs Euforia, Nosferatu, Virus, 4/10/09 This was really good. It started off with an extended mat sequence between Valiente and Virus, which is a hell of a match-up, but what made this match was the rhythm. The timing on the dives was perfect and I think the crowd picked up on that. A tidy match with good, clean progressions. Nobody overplayed their hand and the bumping & catching was strong. Valiente might just be prettier than Super Astro. -
Yeah, not reeeaally in the mainstream. Though a late night TV comedian did used to have a regular Fujiwara segment on his show.