ohtani's jacket

Rubbish. They learn to take contact. The only atheletes who learn how to bump play non-contact sports, like soccer or basketball. Athletes practice in a safer and more controlled environment than "professional" wrestling, but I still say if you can't take a punch you shouldn't wrestle. Just like you shouldn't play rugby if you can't take a tackle or ice hockey if you can't handle body checking. Wrestling requires physicality. Learning to take a bump is not going to help you if you get smacked in the face from an errant knee. Jushin Liger punching people in the face is probably some test or form of discipline, but who'd go into a Japanese ring without sparring? So, what the NJPW dojo does brain scans to find trainees with a neurological disposition towards pain tolerance? Dojo training should hurt and hurt like a mother. First of all, I'm from New Zealand. Second of all, "repressed nature of their country"? For a guy who harps on about racism any chance he gets, you don't mind throwing out the stereotypes. Americans wouldn't put up with this kind of training, I assume, but then I wouldn't use US pro-wrestling as a defence against fucking anything. Like hell it does. I know you've worked up this big image that it's like a POW camp, but wide-eyed hopefuls don't get a look in the door, let alone conned for money. Jesus Christ, GAEA Girls is not horrifying. Considering I looked long and hard for the date on this, for the book, I don't need it broken to me that someone dying in wrestling training or sumo training = not good. The point is some dojos are well run, others are not. Some have blood on their hands, most don't. The idea that the whole dojo system is fucked up because of one small, rather insignificant dojo is like lumping everybody in with Stu Hart & his Dungeon. Rubbish, calling it "banana rape" makes a mockery of it. It's a serious accusation and should be treated as one. OK, I WILL TRY TO DO THAT. THANKS FOR GETTING IT THROUGH MY JAPANIZED BRAIN. Do you understand your desire to see someone get punched, worked or otherwise? I see, it's all work. No-one's actually violent and aggressive by nature. Pro-wrestling lures normal people & normally trained everything ought to be honky dory. Wrestling fans can sleep peacefully, knowing they just saw a great brawl & nobody ever hit anybody in real life & it's great that worked violence is just a work. Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza. Well, the people drawing tentacle rape work like slaves, so I guess that connects somehow. Dojo life is pretty simple. Complain about it & you get punished. The means of punishment is the issue here. I don't condone sodomy or being beaten half to death. Nor do I condone breaking a guy because he's rebellious, won't listen or thinks he's tough. But basic dojo life -- sleeping little, eating shit food, exercising until you've mentally and physically exhausted (or throwing up), doing menial jobs and being treated like shit, being roughed up, verbally abused -- these things are OK. It sounds like basic military training & in a sense it's the same. It takes however many months to pass & once you pass you're never treated like that again. I couldn't do it, just like I couldn't train for the military. Doesn't mean other people can't do it, or that they don't appreciate the trainer who they may have hated for months on end. I didn't come to Japan to be near puroresu or any crap like that. I helped with the book as much as I could (which wasn't much.) Still, I won't abide by people who've been clamouring to get some dirt on Japan getting all giddy. If you can discuss the matter without throwing out ridiculous stereotypes about 125 million people or without fuelling your pet peeve over people who like Japanese pro-wrestling, I can accept any and all contrary view points. I always liked Matt, but considering the flack he took back in the day (some deserved, some undeserved), I find it ironic that he's so great now he's written the most important wrestling book ever.

So take the knives away from them. Don't let them near a stove. We don't want trainees getting hurt. If you don't want to get roughed up, don't enter a dojo. Don't try and be a wrestler. If the recruiting numbers are anything to go by, Japanese young people are doing just that. Even in Sumo where the money's better. Eh, fans who wanna see bladejobs and worked punches, stiffness and ass kicking brawlers, getting upset at real violence. What a crock. If you wanna watch something where nobody ever gets hurt, nothing bad ever happens and people's lives are never wrecked, I suggest taking up another hobby. Something without an underbelly. It's pretty clear that there's no safe way to do professional wrestling. And what exactly is the connection between dojo training & wrestler welfare, anyway?

If I want to play rugby & do light training drills, what'll happen the first time I get tackled? You can only build a threshold towards pain by experiencing pain, making your body stronger & toughening your mind. Why do you think they train the way they do in Japan? Because they're sadistic fucks? Perhaps some post-WW II baggage? Maybe it's because they're yazkua-affliated, so they follow the same intitiation rituals? How far can we distort the fact that they train hard. I don't know why Jushin Liger punches people. My first question is whether it's random. It could be because they're not doing the exercise right, or they broke a rule, or he wants to see how they react, or he thinks they're not tough enough or it's the same shock you get from being accidently struck in the face during a match. Or maybe he's a sadistic fuck. Whatever the case, I don't think being punched in the face is a big deal in a profession where a loose or mistimed strike can do the same thing. If I get hit in the face during a match, at least I know what it feels like. Excuse me if I don't find it horrifying or particularly immoral. I think there's an interesting debate to be had over the consequences of such training, but before that happens people need to stop treating it as a freakshow. How is it described in the book? I was thinking more along the lines of when Chigusa steps into the ring with the trainee in GAEA GIRLS. Sasaki killed a guy & should have gone to jail. One death in 50 something years? Perhaps there were more. Yeah, I have a better idea. I'll accept it as a fact and go around telling everyone that institutionalised banana rape is real. If it happened, then it's fucked up. No doubt. There's a pretty good chance that it did happen. It wouldn't surprise me either way. Sorry for not being gungho in believing it. The worst thing you can do is make a mockery of it.

Man Dave banging Debbie Malenko is a great story. They ought to be the bookerman.

Most fans aren't aware of it, but we are. So people need to be honest and say, "I know wrestling is fucked up, but I like it and can't stop watching," just like people know porn isn't good, but keep watching it without any concern for the actor's welfare or how shitty their life may be. We've now reached the point where people a wrestling fan is selfish, if we weren't already there considering we mainly watch it for free.

Wonder why someone is shooting on you in the 21st century? Respond by beating the shit out of him? I don't know what the protocol is for something that hasn't happened in over a century. I'm talking about accidents. If the average person was kicked in the face and broke their orbital bone, they'd hit the deck like a sack of potatoes. And they sure as hell couldn't hold a broken neck in place. However severe dojo training may be, it increases pain threshold & makes people tougher. Some trainees find dojo training easy, others struggle and are punished a lot. People who can't hack it runaway. The description about their daily life didn't make me blink. For years people have been praising Japanese workers & Japanese matches and now the system that trains them is horrifying? Harden up. Full-contact sparring is not brutal. The dojo system is open to abuse, just like wrestling schools in the US. I'd rather a dojo system that weeds out people than a fly-by-night school that cons them. Someone on DVDVR said the banana story is a "legend has it" story. Who knows if it even happened or how often, let alone whether it's an institution... I know Matt was careful about rumours & sourcing/cross-checking stuff, but if you believe everything you hear Jaguar Yokota had her head shaved because she got pregnant, needed to have an abortion and was punished by the Matsunagas. Or Nancy Kumi was a man-hating lesbian, who was raped by a client (possibly yakuza) in a hostess club. These rumours exist in Japan because the world of Joshi puroresu is alien to them & the idea that women could go without men too tantalising. And the rumours about the NJPW involve sexual acts of some sort. How surprising.

If you can't take a punch you shouldn't be in the ring. Seriously. What are you gonna do the first time you get hit for real?

They usually run away. I don't think guys getting punched is a big deal. If you enter a dojo you should expect to get hit and beaten. A lot. Beating someone to death is criminal & those wrestlers should have been prosecuted, but it was hushed up, swept under the carpet, to the point where you can't find any information on it in Japanese. The sodomy & urination is the type of thing I'd expect from guys like these. They're jocks, basically. The problem is violence begets violence. A lot of Japanese wrestlers come from broken homes, had abusive fathers or no father at all. They're angry & channel that anger into violence. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a shitload of domestic violence as a result. And the pattern of violence and humiliation (degradation) repeats itself. If your senpais beat the shit out of you & humiliate you, only strong-willed people break that cycle. A certain degree of violence towards trainees is part of training (and it's pussy to suggest otherwise), what's in question is the motivation behind that violence. Are you beating the shit out of someone to toughen them up, or because you want to break them for some reason?

Matt's a good guy & I'm glad he's getting published. I know for a fact he worked like a mofo on this.

I agree that inner conflict plays a part in wrestling narratives, and if a wrestler is good at selling or acting you can see that struggle play out. I also agree that bigger moves lead to greater climatic action, provided there's enough pressure. One of the reasons Japanese wrestling is popular is that matches go to the end of the line; a type of final stand, where the big move comes from some inner reserve. However, I don't think fighting spirit has much to do with winning or losing. I suggest you watch the anime Ashita no Joe for more insight into this. What I disagree with is the idea that inner conflict is the basis for all wrestling narratives. "Story" in wrestling is based on personal conflict. It takes a hell of a lot for a wrestling match to reach the level of inner conflict. It requires more than a hard, physical match. Your average match simply doesn't have enough at stake. As for variations on formula, they're fine and good, but first you need to master the form. A lot of young workers borrow shit from here, there and everywhere, from guys who spent years "mastering the form." You have to understand the form. otherwise it's like reinventing the wheel.

Some quick thoughts (haven't had time to read the whole thread): -- Good topic. There hasn't been enough written about this, largely because the standard of wrestling criticism is weak. -- Wrestling has a lot of "Story" elements, but doesn't tell great stories. A story goes something like this: a character has some desire. In pursuing his desire he faces greater and greater obstacles. The greater the obstacle, the greater the pressure, the more is revealed about his character. Wrestling does a good job with characters. The characters have desire. They pursue it & in good matches the pressure & obstacles mount. But a story is supposed to reveal "true" character, a revelation that changes the protagonist in some way. This is where wrestling falls short. Unless the significance surrounding the finish is dramatic in some way (retirement match, mask vs. mask match, heel or face turn, upsets, the odd title victory), the characters never change. If the characters don't change, then they're archetypes & it's not a real story. WWE, for example, is full of archetypes & not real characters. Rey Mysterio, Jr. is always the underdog & Cole is always babbling on about the heart and soul and determination of Rey Mysterio, Jr. His character never changes & WWE storylines get old because they lack character motivation. -- If you're looking for story in wrestling then the best you can hope for is some type of arc. In a great match, the character (even if they don't change) ought to be in a different place at the end than he was in the beginning. In that sense wrestling can play off the emotion of winning and losing. If the wrestler is good at acting or selling, you might even classify it as a character piece. All wrestling really needs is great acting and selling to create a sense of story. The best matches have narratives -- some kind of theme. -- What I look for in wrestling isn't stories, but rather pay-offs. Wrestling is good at creating set-ups (angles, feuds, promos), but all too often it lacks the payoff. Wrestling is shitty at blowoffs. -- Wrestling is a live performance. Sometimes adlibbed, sometimes planned and rehearsed. Sometimes booked well, more often not. There's no retakes and no redrafts. Each performance is like a first take or a first draft. You can't expect too much. I don't think it's anywhere near being the purest form of storytelling (that would be oral storytelling), but it is direct & interactive. -- Regardless of how well wrestling tells stories, people should look for "story" in wrestling. If sportswriters can do it, so can wrestling fans. There was an apprehension created surrounding looking for story that wasn't there, but the people who shouted loudest about that knew fuck all about storytelling to begin with.

This is kinda unrelated, but I read a quote from Kawada on Taue where he joked that Taue was from the country and only worked hard when the cameras were rolling. Baba apparently loved Taue, but was frustrated that he didn't work a tenth as hard as Kobashi and would rather go fishing than train.

El Hijo del Santo vs. Psicosis, AAA 5/3/95 There was some talk over at the surviving Smarkschoice board about whether this is any good. MJH mentioned that "at other times (especially the matwork and the finish) some of the execution is just really, really poor" and that "for a full singles match, Psicosis and Santo were having a bad night together." I thought this couldn't be right, but after a dozen sendspace attempts, I gotta admit -- stock's going down. Whenever people used to doubt Psicosis, I'd always argue the case for his lucha work, not only his bumping & catching, but the hair, the mask, the whole persona. His execution was never the greatest, but it fit the out of control, recklessness of his style -- the baseball slide off an armdrag, throwing his hands in the air before catching a dive, intentionally slipping on the apron... It was a trainwreck style. I like performers in wrestling. Anyone with a semblance of creativity. Psicosis played to the crowd & thus I thought he was a good worker, but having seen this & Psicosis/Juventud Guerrera vs. El Volador/El Mexicano (awful), he's looking more and more like a guy who was lanky & awkward. This is a match that's been pimped at various stages for having great matwork, or rather, for having matwork (i.e. the lucha matwork we love.) You can't have a lucha title match without matwork. AAA strayed about as far away from that as you can, but what matwork there is isn't great by lucha standards. By lucha title match standards, it's exceptionally poor. Whether it's Santo or Psicosis' fault, I don't know. It is what it is. MJH claims Psicosis is "horrid" on the mat, but whatever the case, they only got one spot to work -- the Santo headscissors. The rest of the time they either slipped or dropped the hold completely & the second fall was a mess. I wanna blame the AAA style for being flashy & making workers look crap, but they couldn't even work a surfboard spot without Psicosis having to balance with one hand on the mat. Now I don't have the most analytical mind for watching matches. I don't pay attention to stuff like transitions because it takes me out of the rhythm. I generally go on overall impression. The September Psicosis/Rey match had execution problems, but it was OK because of the shape of the falls and the overall arc. What I'm looking for here is a good two-fall shape. What I think you'll find is good dives. This match has two of the best topes I've seen from Santo. MJH is confused as to why rudos usually get up before technicos on a dive, and I didn't have a very good answer for him, other than it's a suicida type spot. The seconds come over and wave their towels & basically the rudo gets up because it's a common transition into his dive attempt. Sometimes they get a little lazy with it. Psicosis actually sells it pretty well. The dives more or less salvage this match. It would be wreckage otherwise, and not in a crazy Psicosis kind of way. It saves the rhythm in any case, since it picks up when Santo is going full throttle through the ropes. I'm pretty convinced that Santo never had a great singles match in AAA. Given how great Santo's singles stuff is from UWA that says a lot about the style. Now I'm wondering if Psicosis is the embodiment of that style -- all flash and little to show for it.

El Hijo del Santo vs. Espanto Jr, mask vs. mask, 8/31/86 This is a classic Monterrey bloodbath, but the best thing about it is seeing Santo as a young luchador. There wasn't any semblance of a traveling act yet. It was like the match unlocked a period in Santo's early career where he didn't have fixed ideas about working; where he was still searching for the best way to bump and sell & make face comebacks. The Santo roadshow is a great roadshow. Many times I've thought, "Here we go -- same moves, same patterns, different order," yet been surprised by how great the match is. If it's not the greatest traveling act of them all, then it's certainly the most enduring. But this was different. It was like watching old Santo films & getting half a clue to the kind of worker senior was. I may be overreacting due to the fact I just saw this, but I'd go as far as saying it's the most interesting (El Hijo del) Santo match I've seen. It hit me from the beginning that I've never seen Santo grapple like he does here, or sell a bump with an arched back in such a flailing way. Match is a tribute to their seniors ( ), with the usual mask ripping & blood of a wager match. It's not the bloodiest Monterrey brawl, but there's plenty of visuals of bloodied masks & tuffs of hair. It pretty much smokes Santo/Casas from 7/87. Santo/Casas is a great sprint; Casas is magnifico & it's a joy to watch, but hold-for-hold this match is tough to beat. Stakes are high and they really do look like El Santo & Espanto grappling. The camera work gives it an edge too. It's shot from a single camera at ringside, but the guy knew what he was doing. Your average Joe can't hold a camera like that. He got some great pick-ups, especially a shot of Santo kneeling in front of the ringpost, trying to pull himself together between the first & second caida. A bunch of kids come over and pat Santo on the shoulder. It's an awesome scene that would be lost to replays ordinarily. It gives it a raw documentary feel. What you do miss, however, are Espanto's reactions. The match is shot from Santo's corner, so it tells the story from his perspective. Given who's losing, that's a bit of a loss. There's a few jump cuts as well, but nothing too bad. If you're gonna drop the mask, you might as well do it in a Monterrey type setting & hope you have a great match. And that's exactly what they did.

I have nothing but negative things to say about the future of Japanese wrestling, but honestly the coverage has never been that great to begin with.

Pirata Morgan/Gran Markus/Ulises vs. Popitekus/Atlantis/El Dandy, 05/28/89 Wow, this wasn't good... I was surprised since 1989 El Dandy, Atlantis & Pirata Morgan is what hooked me on lucha in the first place. It was almost technicos v technicos, complete with matwork. When it comes to lucha matwork, I'm as big a sucker as the next guy, but this was... middling. Javier Cruz v. Jerry Estrada, hair vs. hair, 10/20/89 For the life of me, I can't figure out what other people see in Jerry Estrada. If you ever wanted to see a wrestler work a match from their lizard brain then this is the match. If I were Cruz, I'd be scared for my safety. You never know what the fuck Estrada's gonna do next. It's like watching a method actor work with an old school Hollywood type. Consensus says this is a great match, so you should check it out for yourself. This is the second or third time I've subjected myself to it, and it's bad. So very, very bad. Estrada's in a stupor from the beginning & can't do the simplest of moves without his brain wiring his extremities. Cruz may have been just as tanked, but he was never the type to take a match by the scruff of the neck. In a sense, I admire him for trying to sell such shitty, slow, botched offence, but the finer points are lost. Estrada is grandiose. If grandiose means showing up to a match all fucked up. Atlantis vs. Emilio Charles, Jr, CMLL Lucha Libre 1984 OK, a match I liked... There's no way of knowing for sure, but this felt like a new kind of lucha. It had an old school build to it, in that there was more emphasis on winning each fall (including working your man over far more than in later lucha), but instead of grounded, leverage-based matwork, they did a lot of awesome fast-paced exchanges. You forget how much of his game Atlantis shelved, or indeed how quick he was... and Emilio was an awesome worker in the 80s. This was the best showcase of 1984 Atlantis I've seen. The kind of match where he reminds me of Lizmark. Given it was a year or less since his debut, credit ought to go to Emilio for being a new school rudo. It would appear that these guys were part of a generation who were shaping a new kind of rhythm in lucha.

I got it from Jeff Lynch. I've never seen it uploaded anywhere. Unfortunately I don't have it with me, otherwise I'd try to be a patron saint.

Here's a reference list for people looking for somewhere to start w/ lucha. It's not a definitive list, but ought to get you hooked. 1. Atlantis vs Blue Panther, 8/9/91 2. El Dandy vs Negro Casas, 7/3/92 3. Angel Azteca vs. El Dandy, 6/1/90 4. El Satanico/El Dandy/Emilio Charles Jr. vs. Atlantis/Javier Cruz/Angel Azteca, 5/13/90 5. Los Infernales (MS-1, Satanico & Pirata Morgan) vs. Los Brazos, 11/22/91 6. Bracito De Oro/Cicloncito Ramirez/Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito El Guerrero/El Fierito/Pierrothito, 10/3/97 7. Cicloncito Ramirez vs Damiancito El Guerrero, 1/7/97 8. Trio Fantasia v. Thundercats, (Masks vs. Masks), 12/8/91 9. Ciclon Ramirez vs Felino (Mask vs Mask), 7/9/93 10. Pirata Morgan vs El Faraon (Hair vs Hair), 11/16/90 11. El Hijo Del Santo vs Brazo De Oro (Mask vs Hair), 1/13/91 12. El Mariachi vs Blue Panther, 10/30/94 13. Ciclon Ramirez vs Javier Cruz (Hair vs Hair), 6/10/94 14. Atlantis/Brazo De Oro/El Dandy/Mascara Magica/La Fiera/Negro Casas/Shocker/Ultimo Dragon vs Black Warrior/Dr. Wagner Jr./El Hijo Del Santo/Felino/Kevin Quinn/Satanico/Scorpio Jr./Silver King, 4/18/97 15. El Hijo del Santo vs. Felino, 7/4/97 16. Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs Apolo Dantes, 5/31/96 17. Octagon vs Fuerza Guerrera, 11/1/91 18. Mascarita Sagrada vs Espectrito I, 3/12/94 19. Silver King vs Apolo Dantes, 6/23/95 20. Dr. Wagner Jr./El Hijo Del Santo/El Texano/La Fiera/Mascara Magica/Mr. Niebla/Shocker vs Black Warrior/El Dandy/Felino/Mano Negra/Negro Casas/Scorpio Jr./Silver King, 3/28/97

Gran Apache vs. Oscar Sevilla, 3/19/00 Gran Apache is a favourite of a lot of people these days, which doesn't surprise me as he's over 40 & all the best guys in Mexico seem to be over 40. I tried getting into the whole Apache family saga. It seems like a pretty cool angle (apart from the baby being scared out of its wits), the only problem is that Billy Boy sucks. Apache, however, is quite the worker. So I sought out a technico who might not suck as much, and here you have it -- Super Libre in the rain. I also watched their hair match & was amped to see it when the clowns started fighting, but it didn't pick up until the third fall & this was much better. I wasn't so interested in them fighting in the rain, I just thought it was a decent Super Libre brawl. Apache is agile enough to catch all the pretty boy stuff young guys like to do in Mexico and work the junior-esque spots, but compact enough to throw a pretty good punch & I'm sure he'd work circles on the mat if young guys weren't so terrified of the mat these days. Anyway, his blueprint was all over this. I wasn't too sure what they were trying to package Oscar Sevilla as, but he fought through the overbooking to prove himself as a technico who could stick up for himself. Match was a little bit light heavyweight-ish, and a typical AAA-product, but they fought hard & that's what I like to see.

El Brazo vs. Rambo, hair vs. hair, CMLL 3/22/96 Thought I'd compare this to Rambo's earlier fight in AAA. CMLL hair matches always feel like more of a fight than AAA matches. More punching, ramming each other's heads into the ringpost, the mat... Just more scrappy in general. Yet they're far more narrow in scope, even with a double bladejob like this one. Even though they're more solid than AAA hair or mask matches, they lack that big time feel. The structure is largely the same -- two quick falls & a longer one -- but there's much ado about finishes in AAA. To get that big, flashy feel they play up the crescendo of each fall, while CMLL is low key. I like the work better in this match, but the arc of where the match begins & where it ends is really small, despite how pissy the loser is. Sometimes a match needs heat to take it to the next level. Perhaps this wasn't a big feud. Perhaps the approach is too direct, with not enough weight given to the finishes. In any case, the match doesn't resolve anything. There's a sense of justice or injustice in even the screwiest of AAA finishes. Maybe this is just a fight. Kinda seems like a waste of a guy's hair, though.

Is that the one that ends with them piledriving each other on the floor? That was an awkward finish.

What I want to know is when Michaels and Flair became such good friends. Was this in Flair's first or second run with the company?

I'm not so sure I think Flair is a scumbag based on what you mentioned, and I find it difficult to believe that everyone in wrestling is on the scummy side. I dunno, maybe scum has a different connotation in the US. It's pretty harsh where I come from. Anyway, wrestling (to me) seems less of a profession & more of a lifestyle, and I think that lifestyle feeds the business as much as the business creates the lifestyle. People talk about wrestlers not being able to separate their character from real life, but it's not like the movies & lord knows actors have a hard time switching off when the director calls cut. Wrestlers are like anyone else in show business. When Flair was cutting all those cool promos in the 80s, he probably was doing all that shit he talked about. The whole business is predicated on bad behaviour. The worse a guy acts the better a heel he is, yet when shit happens in real life people go ape. I'm rambling now. If Flair committed manslaughter, I'd probably agree he was scummy.

Trio Fantasia v. Thundercats, masks vs. masks, 12/8/91 Trio Fantasia are Super Muñeco, Super Raton & Super Pinocho. Thundercats are actually Leono, Tigro and Panthro. Complete costumes and everything. THIS IS A FUCKING GREAT BRAWL. One of the best Monterrey brawls I've ever seen, and definitely one of the best lucha matches of the 90s. I had no idea this was a mask match when I started watching it. I was expecting comedy, maybe a bit of flying. This was amazing. They beat the fuck out of each other in front of 17,000. Super Muñeco's sucked in a thousand matches, but was awesome here. Super Raton was fucking boss. Mangled bodies, ripped masks, one hell of a stained canvas. Panthro's mask was soaked in blood. It was surreal to see gimmicked workers maul each other like this. And to top it all off, Los Thundercats unmasked as the most veteran, journeymen workers you're ever likely to see. Amazing!

As far as the Benoit thing goes, I read about murders in the newspaper all the time without giving them much thought. Hell, shortly before the murder-suicide, I read a magazine article about the growing trend in men killing their families. Didn't give it much thought. Yet when Benoit did it, I was shocked. I don't have kids, but I got married not so long ago & I couldn't understand how anyone could hurt their wife. Happens all the time, I just never thought about it. Can't say I'm outraged; I find the whole thing incomprehensible. It's a fucked-up situation, and I can't blame anyone for the way they react, including not thinking about it too much, which leads to cheering the name drop. I doubt those guys have really thought about what happened, or maybe they're just idiots, but people do stupid shit all the time and this was stupid shit. As far as disattachment goes, I don't know how much I need to know or should care that Flair used coke & fucked around. I'm sure a lot of women have cared over the years, not to mention his wife, but you've gotta draw the line somwhere. Where that line is, I don't really know. I'd hate to say the line is murder or death, but there's only so much you can care about when it doesn't affect you or the people around you.