Clayton Jones

I think the point was more so that Misawa's elbow has always at the end of the day been his deadliest weapon. Fitting it's what he'd use to finish his most bitter rival one last time.

That's new to me I believe as well, stoked to watch that. If you wanted to make it a 7 pack instead I think the Flair/Martel match from All Japan is excellent. Although you lose the aspect of Martel wrestling the local hero. Regardless those are all great recommendations. I love Martel and he'll likely be top half for me but I'll definitely be digging into the Model years to decide where. Also more Strike Force on the positive side, I watched a series of matches they had with the Islanders not too long ago that I loved every second of.

This was even better than their great match February the next year. More concise, a little more urgent, a little more struggle to earn everything. What a fantastic babyface performance from Honma, and for a guy who is always thought of as an underdog, Ishii is equally good working on top. Even stuff that can be boring for this style, like the trading forearms, came at key moments and lead to important momentum changes. Even the little moments post match in this were perfect. Damn what a performance from both guys.

Jonathan Gresham One of the best technicians in the world with a deceptively deep career. Works around his size exceptionally well. He's the type of wrestler that will make me tune into a show I had little to no interest in otherwise. He also only seems to get better with age and could still have some of his best stuff to come. VS Ikuto Hidaka - Zero 1 9/17/2012 VS Masashi Takeda - Bloodsport 4/4/2019 VS Lee Moriarty - GCW 10/10/2020

Matt Tremont The best deathmatch wrestler of his generation, although capable of much more than that. He was essential in revitalizing a deathmatch scene in the US that I wasn't sure was salvageable. A leader and teacher in and out of the ring, a standard bearer, and a great pro wrestler. One of those wild men that makes you want to see against a variety of opponents as a novelty but delivers a good match on top of that. VS Biff Busick - Beyond 6/22/2014 VS Nick Gage - GCW 9/16/2017 VS Markus Crane - GCW 10/28/2017

Man, I don't think this post gave Honma a fair shake at all. His time in AJPW had some high points such as the excellent Tanahashi match and Turmeric Storm always brought an A+ effort even if they didn't have much to work with. His run in Big Japan is hardly overrated, he basically revolutionized deathmatch wrestling to this day with Yamakawa and gets very little credit for it. He had two all-time great deathmatches against him, one against Kobayashi, and the tag against WX and Winger. On a deathmatch wrestler's resume which is going to have a limited peak regardless that's damn good. It took me a while to warm up to headbutt comedy NJPW Honma but stuff like the 2014 match VS Shibata, the tag with Nagata VS Goto/Shibata, and the flat out great February 2015 Ishii match eventually made me turn the corner. He's not a lock for me by any means but he's a strong candidate that I'm going to spend some time figuring out one way or another. That said, if deathmatches aren't your thing then I'd totally understand a hard pass on Honma, I don't think there's a top 100 career there without that brief beautifully gruesome peak.

Well that's some of the most exciting news I've gotten from GWE yet. Valentine's one of those guys that just keeps going up for me. One of the most consistent workman like efforts. The question of his stuff in later years having anything worthwhile or not is an interesting one though.

Re Jetlag's post, yeah absolutely. Ishii isn't one of those grumpy old men workers who needed some salt and pepper to get good. I noticed him and Hidaka at the same time in Michinoku Pro in a period when most of the roster was a wasteland and they still were managing to get his good matches out of most everyone.

Shane Strickland When it comes to a cool babyface who simply has "it" Strickland is one of the best of his generation. More than capable as a heel as well. Extremely versatile with the styles he can work while still having his own style that's uniquely Swerve. I can't recommend his run as the Ace of DEFY highly enough. VS Brody King - DEFY 11/10/2017 VS Darius Lockhart - PWX 3/25/2018 VS Matt Riddle - EVOLVE 5/19/2018

The Anniversary show match VS Nigel, the FWH VS Morishima, and the Cena match are all way up there for me. Glory By Honor VS KENTA isn't far off or that last Hero match in PWG. And yeah the Ki Round Robin match for certain too. I think that's a pretty strange criticism for Danielson, and we're only scratching the surface.

That ZSJ/Strong match is one of my favorites from the decade. From one mostly lurker over the years to another, welcome!

For Jaguar's WWWA Championship. This looks and feels like a historically significant match but I couldn't find much written about it. The one review I read criticized it for starting slow but praised it for turning into an out of control brawl by the end. I felt the exact opposite, that this was outstanding until Jaguar's dive (points for effort) but the ending felt forced to me. Was it typical of a big joshi title match in this era to break down into chaos like that? Or was it just about hatred between these two? There was an edge to the way they worked but I thought it was more of a competitive rivalry up until that point. And even though I didn't like the finishing stretch I loved 3/4s or so of this match. I've watched a lot of great wrestling lately and this had as big of a title fight feel as any of it. The pace for most of the match was more deliberate than you might expect but I was a big fan. And it's still action packed by 1982 standards. Both Jaguar and Devil look world class here and I can clearly see I need to keep digging into 80s joshi.

Holy shit, this is 1980? Also I really appreciate the context that Jaguar is 18 here. She already has an all-time "oh no you fucking don't" face mastered. That also might be because Saito seems to think this is a shoot at times with how she smothers Yokota and then won't let her get an inch without absolutely taking it. This wasn't the most complete match but for the time period and the experience level it was remarkable. Very emotionally engaging, visceral, and ambitious. Great stuff overall.

You guys rule. I'm 5 minutes into the Sato match and my mind is already sufficiently blown.

Awesome, thanks! Yeah I figure I'll be able to navigate the 90s on a bit easier.

Alright help a joshi novice out. Other than the famous Lioness match, what are some key Yokota matches I should be starting with? I just watched her VS Wendi Richter from August 82 which was a good little babyface performance but I'm shooting in the dark on 80s joshi.

I'm pretty sure the wound originally is from his head ricocheting off the post in the previous Smackdown match, on the kick before the one he dodged that lead to his leg work on Bryan in that match. Which ties beautifully into the finish of this match- you could feel a real shift in momentum in that one when Cesaro gave up the sharpshooter to transition to a crossface. Not gonna happen this time around! This was a perfect companion piece to the January match. Bryan's hyper aggressive strategy makes so much sense. These matches play wonderfully back to back. But yeah I'm not sure if the question was more "when does the cut reopen in this match" in which case disregard that comment.

Are there any La Fiera 80s singles matches on tape other than VS Misawa and Babe Face?

They were at each other's throats from bell to bell in this one, wrestling tight and physical and with a lot of feeling. I'd say the TV match against a break out opponent is one of Orton's specialties after watching this and thinking back on some of his stuff VS Bryan and Harper in particular. I really liked how he suckered Cesaro with the shoulder injury but it still seemed to keep bothering him. Not a total possum strategy, but taking a negative and turning it into a positive. And Cesaro wrestled this with a real chip on his shoulder and was equally convincing on offense and working under building to his comebacks. Really efficient match that did everything it could have wanted and then some.

What a hate-filled brutal brawl. From the beginning these guys go at each other with a familiarity of utter contempt. I'm not surprised opinions are so all over the place as it's a unique one to say the least, but man is this up my alley. Going from 80s Fiera to this was an abrupt shock but that may also be because the setting and footage of this match feels like it travelled through time and space. The one thing I'll disagree with is the downtime some criticized, I thought every moment of this was riveting and worked with an intent to end their opponent. The finish was fitting in the sense that after simmering right at the edge of a boil the entire time, the second the chain comes off these two are like bulls charging each other and immediately double KO. I also like the take that it was a mercy kill from the ref. The execution was head scratching but somehow just adds to the snuff film quality of my new favorite match. A trillion stars.

Ah it just linked the entire thread. I think it was page 4 or 5.

It starts on this page and is peppered through some really circular debates about which actor Flair's career closest resembles for a long while. Also much less in-depth posts than that are still a huge help as I'm beginning my process. A classic luchador like La Fiera who I'm uneducated about to say the least and only has 1 page of discussion still gives me a great starting point and overview of his career without any one poster going to bat to anywhere near that degree. As I'm going back through more and more nominees I'm realizing how much great content got drowned out in a handful of shouting contests.

I feel like this is a how it started VS how it's going (3 years from now) meme waiting to happen, but I'm psyched based on the general temperature of the room prelaunch. I agree that some awesome stuff came out of some really frustrating conversations last time (Loss' title run by title run breakdown for Flair comes to mind) so if a generally more positive and inclusive version of that is attainable then it should be a great ride.

On my rough draft Martel is coincidentally 44, so if I'm going to trust my gut I think a drop from 43 is inevitable in 2026 unfortunately. Damn the fucking hipsters to hell.

Jumbo is top 5 on my rough draft, and I didn't vote last time. I expect the ballot I submit in 5 years to look very different, but yeah he's among 8 or so guys I think are legit GOAT candidates. Conversely I agree that modern wrestlers are almost handicapped by the amount of footage available (not that there's any lack of Jumbo) and I'm going to try to strike a balance between the way I judge wrestlers I wish we had more from and everyone I could never possibly watch even a quarter of the careers of. I'm going to strongly consider a guy like Ishii as well as younger yet like Gulak, Busick, Strickland. None are on my ballot currently but they're all on my "under consideration" list.