Grimmas

Somehow I need to watch more of, but everytime I saw him really impressed. 60 is too young to go.

or Grimmas is saying he doesn't feel obligated to watch puro anymore, since puro fans don't feel obligated to watch lucha. That's a completely difference statement. EDIT: As for GWE, I think the amount of wrestlers that people were exposed to was a good thing. The discussions, the exploring was good fro everyone.

A word on my reporting. So, I'm ignoring the 12 other shows CMLL does a week. Just imagine it's random trios with nothing of consequence happening. For "Super Viernes" on Friday nights you will get all the results. If that is a big event like the Anniversary Show you will get a full write up of everything. Then on Sunday with the CMLL TV, you will get ridiculous lucha skits, plus more descriptions of the matches that air. This will keep it easy for me to keep up with.

I didn't mean the title to be an attack. I think it's pretty fair that puro gets super praise and lucha gets dismissed, but I can see how it would sound like a battle cry or something.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. Well let me say that's pretty ridiculous as there are more people in this thread saying "I've never really gotten into lucha" than beating the lucha drum. If you've been "victimised" in this thread it's because you went out of your way to try and antagonize people who do like lucha by saying "it sucks" or dismissing and mocking people's posts defending it or trying to explain why it's not as popular as other forms of wrestling. If you walk down the street with a kick me sign on your back, you don't get to claim you're a victim when someone kicks you. It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism. Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online. LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist? Outside of the context of GWE, I couldn't care less Ok, now let's say that was the majority of people. The majority of people thought Flair was at best top 25 of all time, not close to number. In fact, a huge chunk of those people think Flair sucks. Flair never won maybe 1 WON award. Maybe only a handful of 5 star matches, at most. Maybe only a couple. Now what?

This is getting off topic. As I've said before opinions don't happen in a vacuum, Kobashi has a whole critical narrative around him and Taue has had another one. Whether or not people are aware of it, statements on either of them will be taken with reference to those narratives.Typically on any given thing you'll get an orthodoxy that emerges, then a revisionist position and then possibly even a counter revisionist one. A lot of my positions might be described as "counter-revisionist" because most of the time the push back has been too much. Flair, Dory, three pillars, many times the criticisms are pushed to an extreme. Other times like on Luger, Garvin, and a whole host of others, I'm more on board with the revisionist message. If you want to say I've made the three positions up, it's cool because I don't know if you haven't noticed but I've barely discussed any of these things since April. None of this has anything to do with lucha either. There in lies the problem. The narrative on lucha is completely flat out wrong. The narrative is, it's hard to get into, has no psychology and is all floaty and dives. No luchador is a great worker, except maybe Casas. That is just plain wrong. It's also why it's so easily dismissed. The narrative says it sucks, so why would it get any coverage or look at? How established is this narrative though? Who says this? Sounds like stuff I've said but in all the talk I've ever had around those views I've felt quite firmly in the minority. Minority maybe on PWO. However look at GWE, it's not even true there. The overall online wrestling community's narrative is as you said. Essentially Meltzer's narrative is as you said. Yeah, Phil Schneider and Dylan Hales may challenge you, but that's not the overall narrative. Thinking lucha sucks is the majority, not anywhere near the minority.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. Well let me say that's pretty ridiculous as there are more people in this thread saying "I've never really gotten into lucha" than beating the lucha drum. If you've been "victimised" in this thread it's because you went out of your way to try and antagonize people who do like lucha by saying "it sucks" or dismissing and mocking people's posts defending it or trying to explain why it's not as popular as other forms of wrestling. If you walk down the street with a kick me sign on your back, you don't get to claim you're a victim when someone kicks you. It's not at all me who needs the thicker skin, it's Lucha fans if they really see someone saying "Lucha sucks" as antagonism. Got to deal with that better I think. Cos you know most people aren't actually as polite as I am online. LOL!!!!!!! Let's see what happens when someone says Dory sucks or Flair isn't a top ten wrestler of all time. Do you find that antagonist?

The way facts are presented in the title comes off as a bit whiny to me. Very "us vs them" mentality. It sets a predecent even before the discussion begins I think. Not that it should excuse "blah, lucha just sucks" kinda answers though. Did I ever say "lucha is inferior" ? I don't think I have. Plenty of people have expressed plenty of perfectly reasonnable ideas and conceptions of why they don't really get into it in this thread. If it's really hard to get into it, and saying lucha should be dismissed and puro is better. That means lucha is inferior.

This is getting off topic. As I've said before opinions don't happen in a vacuum, Kobashi has a whole critical narrative around him and Taue has had another one. Whether or not people are aware of it, statements on either of them will be taken with reference to those narratives. Typically on any given thing you'll get an orthodoxy that emerges, then a revisionist position and then possibly even a counter revisionist one. A lot of my positions might be described as "counter-revisionist" because most of the time the push back has been too much. Flair, Dory, three pillars, many times the criticisms are pushed to an extreme. Other times like on Luger, Garvin, and a whole host of others, I'm more on board with the revisionist message. If you want to say I've made the three positions up, it's cool because I don't know if you haven't noticed but I've barely discussed any of these things since April. None of this has anything to do with lucha either. There in lies the problem. The narrative on lucha is completely flat out wrong. The narrative is, it's hard to get into, has no psychology and is all floaty and dives. No luchador is a great worker, except maybe Casas. That is just plain wrong. It's also why it's so easily dismissed. The narrative says it sucks, so why would it get any coverage or look at?

Oh, I'll listen to every second of this!!! The tweets during recording were excellent.

I don't look down at fans. I don't see WoS or lucha fans looking down at other fans. I don't see puro fans looking down at American wrestling. I don't see this at all.

Facts are not whining. So lucha is just inferior is what it boils down to? Nothing else going on?

That's an interesting take. I'm not trying to imply it's racism. I think what it comes down to is coverage and the people who run wrestling narratives (Meltzer) almost ignoring it.

I'm quitting Japanese wrestling, because I don't really like it. The last few year's of having came from the obligation to feel unbiased by watching everything praised. That obligation is gone, because nobody else does it or it's unrealistic. It's a complete side topic to why lucha is talked about the way it is. Them only winning match of the year, most outstanding wrestler, and wrestler of the year once in the WON awards history should be a bigger talked about subject.

Was there any answer to the question in the OP that would've made you change this decision? What happened in the last two months? just curious. No idea. This thread was to try to understand why this was happening more than anything else. The last two months just had me thinking about this shit more often, more than any events happening. Also time is limited. Your first statement is incredibly immature, but you probably already know that. What if someone watched Canis Lupus vs. Trauma I and didn't think it was a MOTYC? Do you want people to give it a chance or to concur with your every assessment? If you're going to pick & choose your wrestling based on who else watches it you're only spiting yourself. Try to stick to what you actually enjoy regardless of who else comprises the audience. It's really immature to do what 90% of fans do? To turn that around, if I watch what highly praised puro match and didn't like it, does that mean I gave puro a chance? What I am talking about is not people giving something a chance and not liking it. There are people who will try to watch highly praised stuff, but they are the minority. The majority go, I don't get lucha and ignore the whole thing. I stick to what I enjoy, the difference is I used to feel obligated to watch all the highly praised stuff. That usually means lots of NJPW stuff. All that has changed is me feeling obligated to watch it. For a few years (13-15) I watched a TON of NJPW, because that is the praised stuff. There was some good stuff and some bad stuff. I never really dug it. I have limited watching time, why should I waste any of that on NJPW? What I want to do is really focus in on what I like and try to shine some light on it. Lucha is not inferior to puro, but it is obviously seen that way by the masses. The only small thing I can do is focus my viewing habits onto what I think is good, not what the masses feel is good. How is that immature?

Ryan (Brian?) Ward seems to be the difference between the two shows.

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than 1 Lucha Match of the Year 1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner 1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW) In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

The talent is out there, just no one has the money or the intelligence to challenge. TNA had Spike and money, but were too stupid to make a ran at anything.

Well I may be the biggest fan of these out there, so I appreciate it. Although Keith Lee vs Brian Cage not being hoot of the year is a damn shame.

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha. In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street. I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. It's going to sneak into my top ten for this year.

You seen Delta vs Galactar mask match yet?

Sasha vs Charlotte in a HIAC is a match you didn't list, that is a top 3 match for me this year.

People not liking lucha is not the lucha. The issue is it getting completely ignored or the majority of people just thinking the whole thing sucks. While, puro (especially current NJPW) get this insane amount of praise all the time. Why is this? That is the question posed. Is it really that lucha sucks and puro rules or is there something else going on here? I think it was nailed earlier in the thread with there being a learning curve and people's reaction to that.

Very excited! I have been waiting for this for week's now.