Grimmas

Actually great point, lucha is incredibly diverse. There is brawling, spotfests, techinical matches, high end drama, etc... There is lucha for every type of wrestling fan. That is why I found it so bizarre when Parv said Negro Casas wasn't a luchador. What the fuck is lucha libre then?

I don't like Flair. I think he's over rated. I had him #10 on my list.

Last year I did my 100 best matches ever, here are the 90s matches on that list. It's probably changed in the last year, but here we go: 55 Shinya Hashimoto vs Genichiro Tenryu (NJPW, 8/1/98) 54 Orient Express vs Rockers (WWF, 1/19/91) 53 Rey Mysterio Jr. vs Ultimo Dragon (WCW, 11/24/96) 52 El Hijo del Santo & Rey Misterio Jr. & La Parka & Octagon vs Pentagon & Blue Panther & Fuerza Guerrera & Psicosis (AAA, 6/18/95) 51 Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa (7/28/94) 50 Midnight Express vs Rock'n'Roll Express (NWA, 2/25/90) 49 El Dandy vs Black Warrior (CMLL, 11/2/96) 48 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Koashi (AJPW, 12/3/93) 47 Shinjiro Ohtani vs Jushin Liger (NJPW, 2/9/97) 46 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Koashi (AJPW, 5/21/94) 45 Toshiyo Yamada & Manami Toyota vs Dynamite Kansai & Maumi Ozaki (AJW, 11/26/92) 44 Vader vs Dustin Rhodes (WCW, 11/16/94) 43 Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat (WCW, 6/20/92) 42 Lex Luger vs Ric Flair (NWA, 2/25/90) 41 Bret Hart vs Mr. Perfect (WWF, 6/13/93) 40 Akira Taue vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW, 3/21/95) 39 Bret Hart vs Undertaker (WWF, 9/20/97) 38 Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker (WWF, 10/5/97) 37 Royal Rumble (WWF, 1/19/92) 36 Jushin Liger vs Naoki Sano (NJPW, 1/31/90) 35 El Dandy vs Angel Azteca (EMLL, 6/1/90) 34 Dude Love vs Steve Austin (WWF, 5/31/98) 33 Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Mysterio Jr. (WCW, 10/26/97) 32 War Games (WCW, 9/18/94) 31 Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke (NJPW, 4/16/94) 30 Rey Mysterio Jr. vs Psicosis (WCW, 7/7/96) 29 Dusin Rhodes & Ricky Steamboat vs Enforcers (WCW, 11/19/91) 28 Jumbo & Taue & Fuchi vs Misawa & Kawada & Kobashi (AJPW, 4/20/91) 27 Atsushi Onita vs Terry Funk (FMW, 5/5/93) 26 Randy Savage vs Ric Flair (WWF, 4/5/92) 25 Midnight Express vs Southern Boys (WCW, 7/7/90) 24 Bret Hart vs 1-2-3 Kid (WWF, 7/1/94) 23 El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (CMLL, 9/19/97) 22 10 Man Tag (M-Pro, 10/10/96) 21 Bret Hart vs Diesell (WWF, 11/19/95) 20 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Misawa (AJPW, 6/8/90) 19 Pirata Morgan vs Satanico (AAA, 11/26/93) 18 Cibernetico (CMLL, 4/18/97) 17 Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda (FMW, 5/5/96) 16 Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Kroffatt & Furnas (AJPW, 5/25/91) 15 Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW, 11/14/90) 14 Randy Savage vs Ultimate Warrior (WWF, 3/24/91) 13 Akira Taue vs Misawa (AJPW, 4/15/95) 12 El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL, 12/14/90) 11 War Games (WCW, 5/17/92) 10 Eddie Guerrero & Love Machine vs El Hijo del Santo 7 Octagon (AAA, 11/6/94) 9 Jumbo vs Misawa (AJPW, 9/1/90) 8 Kobashi vs Hansen (AJPW, 7/29/93) 7 Hansen vs Kawada (AJPW, 2/28/93) 6 Misawa vs Kawada (APW, 6/3/94) 5 Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF, 3/23/97) 4 Bret vs Owen (3/20/94) 3 Misawa & Akiyama vs Taue & Kawada (12/6/96) 2 Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF, 11/17/96) 1 Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (4/2/93)

That's certainly an interpretation.

Yep.That's it. You got me. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm clearly just trying to protect the narrative in my head above all reason. EDIT: Forgot to point out, it's only because of racism towards Mexicans. Can't miss that, since I hate white people say much.

Again, that's not what I meant. What I am sure of is lucha doesn't get good coverage so it makes sense that that match isn't getting hype.

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument. I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity. Does anybody know attendance, can't find it. There are indies in America that draw 1000 people and get zero coverage as well. When ROH was blowing up online and drawing 800 fans was this incredible feat, there were shows in Alabama or Arkansas drawing the same or more with the Rock N Roll Express and Bobby Eaton, AJ Styles, etc. No one ever talked about them. There is a indie show that brings a bunch of legends and hot indie guys to Indiana every year that draws 5000 people. It gets zero coverage. No one cares about those baseball stadium shows. And these are in America, with a language that people know. Yet you're unsure of why a random Mexican indie match isn't being covered as much as something from AAA or CMLL? I'm not unsure. You clearly do not understand a single thing I type. My apologies.

Someone pointed out why would this small indie match be a match that could win match of the year. Well they outdrew and is easier to watch then a match that won in 2007.

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument. I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity. Does anybody know attendance, can't find it.

By the way: Canis Lupus vs Trauma I was a sell out of 2,400 people and easily available on youtube. In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

i'll take this over yet another guy who gets obnoxiously indignant over defending his boring-ass canonical takes Can I just ask why is it the worst sin in the world to call someone a hipster or contrarian but this sort of thing is totally fine? Isn't that not only a double standard but also a built in proof of my oft-derided claim that some people see themselves as challenging established narratives? It always depends on how it's done, not what they are doing. If the old standard is true after being looked at it, fine. If it's just toying the old standard that is silly. Same for reverse, claiming something to be a contrarian is stupid. Thinking something is better that is contrary to old standard, is fine.

Stop trolling. Liking 70s AJPW is trolling? The fuck? My love of 70s AJPW is everywhere I post, including my own website. Baba was a wonderful booker, and whoever was laying out the matches could make me enjoy Mil Mascaras matches. No, liking 70s AJPW is not trolling and you know that. Stop being so obtuse.

I've jumped back onto this. Did a Villano III vs Rambo review and an EVOLVE 74 review recently.

Just reviewed this on my blog and I give it the same rating as Chad. I think the finish to this is the best Dusty finish I have ever seen.

Stop trolling.

A NJPW Christmas Special! My favourite of all specials!

Agreed, and I think the focus on Meltzer now is probably a bit misguided. There's likely a large effect among "hardcore" circles from the way Meltzer wrote about puro and lucha in the late 80s and early 90s (particularly with the way it coincided with people starting to get online, RSPW, trade trading, etc.), but that's history and can't be changed. Meltzer praising something can help, but influence is so diffuse at this point that one person really can't shift popular opinion in a big way. This, the damage was done in the 80s and 90s.

I agree with this, so much.

Learn to read, never once said it was racism. Just said completely dismissing it seems wrong. Others have asked, why would anybody care that wrestling coverage follows America and puro and ignores almost everything else? It seems pretty obvious that people would want wrestling coverage and fandom to not ignore a giant country like Mexico. A few have come back with lucha is just not for them, which is completely fine. However, I feel like that is too simple of an answer. Would lucha be as hard to get into if it was covered like puro and if the tapes flowed as freely. Would it be as hard if people talked about MS-1 vs Sangre Chicano like they do 6/3/94? Also, maybe Trauma vs Lupus is a bad example. Looking back Atlantis vs UG was 4th match of the year in the WON. That's not too bad at all, of course it's the only lucha match to place or get honourable mentions. Would that be the case with a different narrative and history? I'm not interested in whether Mexico is a giant or small country. I'm interested in whether the wrestling it produces is compelling and interesting according to my tastes. Why on earth would I want to dedicate time to something just because it originates in a big place? Just don't see the logic there at all. If there was a groundswell of discussion about MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana, or any big lucha matches -- whether Atlantis/V3, highly touted Santo/Casas/Dandy matches from the 90s, or Mistico / Anniversary show matches from the last 10 years, I believe there would be a hell of a lot more discussion about them. Then again, I don't think it compares to Misawa/Kawada or the best of All Japan from that era, or even New Japan from this era. That's my taste. Its a great match but not an all-timer for me. But you seem intent on tying this directly to WON MOTY voting. I can't explain the reasons there but can't think of a good one off the top of my head. Do you want people to understand and be open to lucha, or are you beating the drum that they adopt your views of lucha, and if not, content to resort to personal attacks for why their tastes are wrong? If people who are diehard lucha fans believe that Mexican promotions are putting forth the best wrestling in the world, here's what they should do. Skip right past the point where you condemn people who have other tastes and suggest that they're racist. Instead, talk about Mexican wrestling. Say why its great, what to look for, give it context and tell people where to watch it. If people still don't like it, perhaps consider its not racist and not a personal affront to the person making the recommendation, but a matter of taste. And then continue talking about Mexican wrestling that is great until you're tired of doing so. What's so difficult about that tact? You are still missing something, so I must really suck at explaining. My apologies. I'm not offended or hurt by lack of lucha coverage. Lack of lucha discussion. Lack of lucha getting awards, etc... What you seem to be claiming is lucha is not for you, so you ignore it. That is fine. Nothing wrong with that. What an individual does is not important to me. Lucha libre draws really well in Mexico. They draw thousands of people every day and run a ridiculous amount of shows. If we are claiming that it gets no overall narrative or coverage because it's just not for the people who ignore, then how did it get so popular in Mexico and with certain (small minority) of fans? Saying it's not for this person, it's not for this person, does not explain it at all. Saying puro is not for everything explains why some people like it, and some don't. If it's not just for some people, lucha would be a LOT more popular. Also, if you see no problem at all with lucha getting almost no coverage in the WON and WON awards, the torch, etc.. etc... that's fine. I think that seems wrong and doesn't seem like those things are accurately covering wrestling. EDIT: I am just saying I think there is a problem here, I'm not upset or angry or sad or flipping out.

Learn to read, never once said it was racism. Just said completely dismissing it seems wrong. Others have asked, why would anybody care that wrestling coverage follows America and puro and ignores almost everything else? It seems pretty obvious that people would want wrestling coverage and fandom to not ignore a giant country like Mexico. A few have come back with lucha is just not for them, which is completely fine. However, I feel like that is too simple of an answer. Would lucha be as hard to get into if it was covered like puro and if the tapes flowed as freely. Would it be as hard if people talked about MS-1 vs Sangre Chicano like they do 6/3/94? Also, maybe Trauma vs Lupus is a bad example. Looking back Atlantis vs UG was 4th match of the year in the WON. That's not too bad at all, of course it's the only lucha match to place or get honourable mentions. Would that be the case with a different narrative and history?

I watched 30 seconds in the middle of this match and gave up. Unbelievably terrible. Matches worked slower than a training demonstration? I'll pass. Way to put in the effort.

So, how would this change? What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro? EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? What could be done for future matches like that to place high and be treated in the same breath as top puro matches?

Ironically, this might be the grossest statement of outgroup homogeneity in the thread. Also, in the 80s when Japanese tape-trading started (well before my time), wasn't there a wave of anti-Japanese sentiment in America during the Japanese economic boom? An essentially identical argument shows that Japanese music is more popular in the US than black music, which is laughably false. If your proposed explanation for why puro is more popular than lucha can't separate true conclusions from false ones, I'm not sure how useful it really is. No, it doesn't at all.

It's amazing people want to think I am claiming racism is the reason. I am just saying it's stupid to dismiss it so easily. Racism towards Mexicans is a long issue. In fact the majority of Americans feel they should deport "illegal immigrants". Again, I'm not calling anybody here a racist. It could very well be all the reasons stro said, but I don't see why racism gets completely thrown out without any discussion. Is it really that ridiculous to think it could have slightly influenced the people who influenced others? For example, stro mentioned more Japanese people working in America, but why did less Mexicans work America? Was it all Mil Mascaras keeping them out, or is there a chance some racism towards lations could had come into play? Racism may not have been an issue at all, but to dismiss it and get pissed at anyone saying it's a possibility seems ludicrous.

You think racism towards Mexicans started with Trump??