Death From Above

Yeah let me be clear I am not trying to knock anybody here either. I mean clearly even if I was, it would be a rather distinct example of the pot calling the kettle black here. Just making an incredibly long-winded observation, and hopefully the point didn't get lost in all that.

Just as an aside personally I think there's a huge difference between being fans of a club that plays a sport, and being a fan of a sport. Similar to within wrestling how there are probably 5-10K people sitting in the crowd at Wrestlemania that are Undertaker fans and are really on there for The Streak match, then won't watch Raw for like 6 months (or some other prominent example). I always have a hard time adding 2 and 2 and ending up with 4 when someone tells me they're a big hockey fan but "I didn't watch the Stanley Cup playoffs after my team got knocked out". I wouldn't miss a Stanley Cup final game for anything short of a family funeral. A lot of this has to do simply with time constraints. There are a lot of people that would watch more of (insert sport here, or wrestling) if time allowed it but simply can't. So they follow one club, or federation, with religious fervor. At the end of the day a lot of them turn out to be bigger fans of that one club than of the sport as a whole. In the last 12 months, I attended every Edmonton CFL home game personally. Our family (specifically my mother) has had season tickets since before Commonwealth Stadium even existed, and that was built in 1978. I wasn't even born until 1981. As far as I can figure, I've never missed a home game. Like, ever. So I'm clearly a fan of the club, but it doesn't end there for me. I also watched every single game of the CFL season on TV (which is possible with an 8 team league), with the only exceptions being a couple I would have missed because I was in the process of going to the stadium in Edmonton in games that were part of a double header (which can't really count as a "miss"). I did the same last season too. I was also catching (on average) 2 or 3 games of NFL on Sundays, plus Monday Night Football, plus all the NFL playoffs. I also watched a few of the college bowl games, though I've long since given up trying to understand all the conferences and follow all the political bullshit about which school got stuck in the wrong bowl this year. So I watched a lot of football. I'm a real hardcore fan of the sport to the point that I am dedicating a serious portion of my free time during a year to it, beyond a most likely objectively reasonable amount. Those two seasons in Canada and the USA have some overlap, but realistically that's what I'm doing with my Thursday-Monday nights (and Sunday afternoons) for about half the year, give or take. There are a lot more people that would call themselves "football fans" that only follow one team religiously, plus probably catch the Monday Night game. There were plenty of Eagles fans that couldn't stand the thought of a Packers/Steelers game in the playoffs, for example. They are probably the normal ones, I suppose. Just as there are millions that are just watching WWE, and then moving on with the week, probably even many that would love some of the stuff we all have dug into over the years, but they have most likely neither the time nor motivation to go far enough to find out. I think we're clearly on another level than the normal fan. Not saying this applies to you personally in any direct way, merely a sub-point of the current discussion relating wrestling fandom to mainstream sports fandom.

I'm not convinced that The Streak hasn't gotten so big in the last handful of years that breaking it wouldn't produce some sort of legit backlash from the fans. I don't see many fans actually calling for Undertaker's undefeated run to end, most talk about it with a sense of dread "fuck, don't let THAT GUY be the one that ends it". Fans seem to love it. Fans love talking about it, people buy Wrestlemania just to see it carry on one more year, hating the idea it will end. To be honest I have a feeling killing The Streak could end similarly to WCW ending Goldberg's streak for no reason. The fans really didn't want to see it happen yet, it didn't get anyone over, and it cost you people who would pay just to see The Streak go on. I don't think it should be killed just because it can be. If him going undefeated at Wrestlemania keeps being seen as a huge deal that gets people interested in watching, don't end it. If the fans tell you "screw the streak" you end it, but I don't ever see that happening barring something totally bizarre in the next couple years.

I don't mark as being as negative a term as it's generally used in wrestling anymore. Other entertainment fields have similar terminology without it (always) carrying this connotation of being an idiot that it seems to in wrestling circles. In the rawest business sense I see a "mark" as anyone paying to see the product, it's a term that represents paying customers. I don't see that as good or bad, to me it's a neutral term. I mean, you can see the same snarky bullshit over people that still pay money to see Metallica in 2011, or other entertainment that falls off the cool bandwagon. "Hurrrrr U paid to see Metallica, they R old and sold out." "Yeah... so?" Pretty much the same kind of discussion the original post is talking about in wrestling circles. To me it's a pretty lame insult. It hasn't carried any weight in that sense for me personally in a while now. It's wrestling's version of "you're gay". Ooooh, feel the burn. I am kind of glad Zach Arnold's old forums ceased to exist at some point and were replaced with a new one. I can't even imagine how much snide bullshit I must have written there back in the day. I was a complete snob for a while very heavy into Japan at a time when what WCW and the WWF were doing was really turning me off, and I was probably more than a bit of a jerk. I'd like to think I've mellowed out a lot at this point. A few years will do that to you, I guess. And for the record, I'm basically a "retired wrestling fan" but also a "big nerd that still digs the forums". I enjoy this place, and also DVDVR. They are places I can get varied opinions and also still engage in relatively civil discussion at the same time. That is a hell of a lot rarer than it really should be (not just talking wrestling but forums on subjects of any kind), and honestly I find overall considering it's size that DVDVR is for the most part a remarkably well behaved group, and it has attracted a funny ole subsect of people that are quite knowledgeable in quite a few areas. This place is really calm, and I find the discussion here mostly worth my time reading even if I don't contribute a ton. Both are places I still enjoy talking wrestling, and in DVDVR's case, a ton of other things too. I've tried a couple times in the last couple years to get back into actually *watching* the wrestling, but with no immediate social circle of wrestling fans to hang out with (my best friend back in high school was the guy who introduced me to ECW, and Japan, and we did nothing but watch wrestling for years), combined with having seen so many of my favourites drop dead, end up semi-crippled, or screwed up on drugs, wrestling has got harder to watch for me than it should, so I just don't. It's just not as fun as it should be for me, even if I still enjoy discussing plenty of things about it. In terms of my own wrestling interests, when I have watched over the last 5 years (which has been less and less, and has been 0 for most of the last couple), it's a lot wider now than it used to be. I'm always going to be a guy that enjoys the long epic, and as such, enjoys things like the long 1990's AJPW main events. But that doesn't mean I don't love me a good Dusty Rhodes promo, or that I would expect or want the same thing from every company anymore. In that sense over the last decade of wrestling fandom, I've smartened up a lot. There is something to enjoy in almost every style. What's a smart fan exactly? I dunno either.

I've always been baffled by why, once the Monday Night Wars era had started and you had companies putting out as much TV as possible per week (huge portions of which even now are still filler), the 6-man tag has never really caught on either in WCW or in modern WWE, for pretty much all the reasons outlined above. All the other points aside, from a pure business standpoint this alone makes it an easy sales pitch, I would think. Yet it's just never come to pass. I really think they've missed the boat on this, personally.

What's the Warrior/Make-A-Wish Kid story?

RE: Football does very good TV ratings in Canada, both CFL and NFL. Obviously not as widely followed as hockey is here but its got a legitimate claim to being #2 on the radar.

I don't mean to pile on the WWE here but if Undertaker at this stage of his career is still the only star in your company that you trust with the workrate slot on Wrestlemania, you have serious fucking problems. I respect the guy a lot don't get me wrong, but what they're asking of him at this point is borderline impossible. I would much rather they'd cut that shorter and kept the US title match on the main show (4 hours and you have to cut matches last minute... really?), or given the main event more time. The finish of that sounded extremely rushed.

Out of context of who's in the match I found the idea somewhat worthy of praise, in the sense that they actually had a storyline around every match on the PPV. Some of their big shows had incredibly random matches that just happened for no reason. Hell, about half of Starrcade '98 falls into that category. So at least in that sense I thought it wasn't a period that was a total waste in terms of what they were thinking. But some of the workers they were clinging onto and giving those storylines to was pretty ridiculous (never mind also in this case the refusal to let the nWo die) and emphasized an element of why WCW was WCW. The match itself sucked a dick of course. I don't know if it's really any worse than, say, a majority of Konnan's work from relatively the same period. Now there's a guy that was an absolute black hole for most of what I've seen him do.

I'll never forget when WCW ran Stevie Ray vs. Vincent on PPV for leadership of the nWo Jobber Team. BURNED INTO MY MEMORY

How wrong is it that I want to agree with you without even clicking the link?

Ian Rotten is an absolutely ridiculous human being.

Yeah if the streak ever does end I have a very hard time thinking it could without Taker giving 100% approval. He has more than enough status in the company that if it ever does end (which in this case I doubt very very much, at this point there seems to be no value to ending the streak unless you get some Vader-like figure who can kill Inoki in under 5 minutes and start a riot) it's going to be of his own design. Showing my nerd side here, but it's like when they killed of Data in that last Star Trek film before the reboot and some fans lost their shit at the wrong people. Then you watch the extras and Brent Spiner is all "Yeah, it was pretty much my idea. The character has run it's course, so I said kill him off".

See personally I already knew all this and I just sort of assumed it's common knowledge. Maybe it isn't, but announced attendance numbers are on distributed tickets not actual attendance. I mean for one thing it's a hell of a lot easier than a true head count anyway. I don't consider it "working" the number in the sense it is meant here. Once or twice a year at CFL games in Edmonton you'll hit a day of shit whether (or even better shit weather at a preseason game) and the attendance number they announce of around 34K (which is about as low as it gets in Edmonton as your baseline season ticket number + assorted distributions) is clearly bullshit and everyone has a chuckle, but I'm pretty sure most people know what's up with that. I'm not sure buildings would lie about their actual capacity. Without any real knowledge of it, aren't there certain laws and regulations (I'm thinking fire codes, and the like), where declaring an actual maximum capacity in advance is required?

I really need to see Dave's tin foil hat collection someday. It's got to be amazing.

The first time I saw this match, I was watching a Joshi show for the first time in my life with no real background on the workers at all. Not a bad starting show, that. I distinctly remember being so impressed that I told my buddy (also a giant wrestling nerd, he's the one that introduced me to pretty much everything) that I thought it was one of the best matches I'd ever seen. I enjoyed the whole show a ton but this was pretty mind boggling to just have hit you out of the blue one Saturday afternoon. The crowd brawling has too much hugging and walking about, really. But that's the only flaw I ever found in it. One of my favourite finishes too. Even if it wouldn't work in most contexts. But it was perfect here. If this wasn't one of the damnedest things I ever saw in wrestling I don't know what was.

You realize people over 35 (since that's your cutoff number, not mine) make up a clear and overwhelming majority of the population, right? Tiger Mask has a cartoon popular among some kids and internet dorks. The other guy was the biggest television draw in the history of a nation and is a pop culture figure important enough that he appears in some history textbooks.

I thought there were much better FMW spectacles than this. It's Onita vs. Funk so of course it has a ton of charisma worked in, but as a match it's not really one of my favourites, I find it pretty underwhelming.

I remember when I first got around to watching this show I thought this match was pretty brutally bad. I also remember Beefcake being in for way longer than you'd probably want, but I thought to myself "Okay I know Hogan comes out and wins the title, I guess they are saving him for that". Of course then when we get to that it's punch punch big boot leg drop the end. So... no, not really. Not the strongest Wrestlemania ever. Hell my most memorable thing might be Luger's entrance.

The Twitter Drop should only be used in matches that are clearly too short to tell a real story.

I've mentioned this before at one point, but my 1991-1993 Japan TV tapes are literally the only VHS I have ever worn out. It is totally absurd how much good stuff there is in there.

That whole story... the truth really is way stranger than fiction.

This thread and the DVDVR TNA Victory Road thread in one week. Horn of plenty.

WCW 2: The Quickening would seem to be about the right level.

I read a stat (on the internet, no less, so it must be true) that once upon a time Hashimoto had main evented the most Dome shows, so it's possible. Not sure if it's still true or not, though I can't imagine given the decline in Japan that any of the recent years there would effect that particular discussion point as far as drawing goes.