Bob Morris

(Removed previous writing after reading the link.) EDIT: More about the accident here: http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/pro-wrest...ve-1425460.html

Russo keeps claiming the Arquette title win was good because a picture got published in USA Today and the folks who were filming a movie featuring Arquette were willing to shoot footage of him acting like he was the tough guy, at no cost to WCW. The problem with both is neither one translated to more viewers watching WCW or buying the PPVs.

I think another point worth mentioning is that, when Russo first took over in WCW, Nitro was three hours, then switched to two hours a few shows into his stint. So the rating went from the overall for a three-hour show to the overall for a two-hour show, which really wasn't as impressive. I think a difference between Russo and Heyman is that Heyman, from all accounts, has a personality so charming that, even when you know he's lying, you are still struck by his personality. Russo, on the other hand, doesn't have that personality but is pretty slick when it comes to spin doctoring, particularly around people who don't know any better. If the two were used car salesmen, Heyman would happily approach the guy who knows a lot about cars and find a way to win him over, and while he may not get the guy to buy a lemon, he would get the guy to buy a car that he might not need in the first place. Russo, on the other hand, would first approach the people who are clueless about cars and hope he sells enough to get backing from his boss despite the fact he sells a lot of lemons with just the rare occasion of selling somebody a good car.

SLL brings up a valid point about Cena's offense just not making for a good heel. Heels control the match, after all, so if you don't have enough or the right type of offense to allow you to control the match, it's going to be harder to keep people drawn into the match. That's not to say Cena can't keep people drawn into a match -- his strengths as a worker make him better as a face than a heel. The problem with Cena's authenticity isn't his offense, though, but his character. WWE seems to want him to be "1980s Hulk Hogan with an edge" but can never book him properly to make that work, or force him to read a lot of scripted material instead of letting him come up with stuff on his own. And in the latter case, I don't think I'd ever have to worry about Cena going into business for himself in his promos, because everything about him indicates he's generally unselfish. Compare that to Austin, who was definitely authentic in terms of character during his peak run, and to Rock, who initially tried to be "golden age of comics Superman" when that didn't work, then became the cocky, trash-talking athlete, which was an authentic character for his heel run... but as is the case with some trash-talking athletes, people decide they really do like the guy and thus he can be just as authentic as a face. Anyway, to address the topic... Cena really works best as a face because that's how he is able to do his best in-ring work, given his strengths as a worker. He does have the personality that can make him a face that can work on multiple levels, but he isn't getting the proper booking and direction from WWE Creative. Oh, and as for Rey Misterio Jr., he was somewhat pushed as a heel in Russo-era WCW and it never worked. Russo could have truly been the greatest booker ever and he still wouldn't have been able to make Rey work as a heel. Too much about Rey's character and wrestling style screams "underdog" and fans just aren't going to boo an underdog.

This is the reason why I didn't bring up Powers, because I figured I'd get the reply: "Come on. HHH is not that bad." Roma was a pretty decent worker who was fine as a lower midcard guy. I don't think he was anything special on interviews, but he was to the point and didn't actively try to bury anybody. He did a decent job during the Power and Glory run. I think being a cocky heel was what he did best, even if it was never going to put him over the top. Of course, had he been a guy who had known how to rub elbows with the right people, who knows what might have happened.

It's WWE engaging in revisionist history. There was no World Wrestling Federation. There was no WWF usage. Just WWE. And they were never about pro wrestling. They were about entertainment. It's WWE being WWE.

I thought Kool-Aid explained everything about Paul Heyman. Besides, it's not like Heyman has written three books portraying himself as a victim of society and a misunderstood genius.

I think the issues that really need to be questioned regarding Lesnar's return have nothing to do with Lesnar himself. Wasn't his last run a case of where WWE Creative didn't have a clue how to properly book him? Sure, one can bring up Triple H and his power trip, but I'm pretty sure if you removed that from the equation, you still have a WWE Creative team that has no clue how to book Lesnar. So what makes anyone think things will be different this time around, when WWE Creative has shown it has no clue how to book Rock, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan or just about anyone else they've had some "hot moment" come along and then failed to capitalize on? As long as WWE Creative continues to do a piss-poor job of booking, I have no reason to believe ANYBODY who comes along to WWE is going to turn things around. By all means, feel free to get excited about Lesnar's return, but don't expect it to mean WWE Creative gets its collective heads out of its asses and learn to properly book.

If Reynolds wrote the first half, then he owes everyone an explanation as to why there is no mention of The Black Scorpion... especially since that's WrestleCrap personified. Heck, Alvarez would deserve grief for forgetting it as well.

I think Vince Russo was a big fan of HHH at the time as well. And, given that HHH hung around with Shawn all the time, when Shawn was gone, it was pretty much a given that HHH was going to be the new leader of DX. Although I think what really put DX over the top in that run were X-Pac and the New Age Outlaws. Heck, 1998 was one of Sean Waltman's finest years.

It was mentioned in the Dave Meltzer-Wrestling Classics thread that, if Vince had not gotten Hogan, he would have picked Kerry Von Erich and Kerry would have self-destructed on the road. In other words, it was either Hogan or Vince's expansion flops.

More threads where I'm trying to catch up on stuff after being gone a while * On Cyndi Lauper, what I suspect makes it popular for WWE to put her down is because her popularity as a singer didn't last beyond the 1980s. In other words, she's just associated with one era in particular. If Madonna had taken on that role, there's no way WWE buries her because Madonna -- even though she has her faults -- has remained popular through the years. It's easier to associate yourself with somebody who has held up as a celebrity for many years than it is to associate yourself with somebody whose popularity was brief. With that being said, Lauper was hot at the time so, as with Mr. T, it was justifiable to have her involved. WWE just needs to be a little more honest and say "she was big at the time, so why wouldn't you get her involved?" They do that to an extent with Mr. T, for example, even as more people try to bury him to this day. But there's nothing wrong with associating yourself with somebody who was hot at the time, even if he or she is no longer that big of a deal. They do it all the time with such folks guest starring on TV shows, making movie cameos or showing up on the sidelines of a certain NFL team. And yeah, there might be something to the Bill Watts thing. But if Lauper was still big in the mainstream today, WWE would just ignore Watts… Jim Ross, given that he's still close with Watts, might try to get in a word or two, but it's likely WWE would want it swept under the rug. * While Piper's hatred for Mr. T tends to go overboard, he does have some valid points he raises on his WWE DVD. I completely understand why he wanted to keep everything in an "amateur wrestling" sense when he was wrestling Mr. T because you don't necessarily want Mr. T to instantly look like he can be a pro wrestler right in his first match. You don't want Mr. T to look helpless but you don't want to look like he's immediately on the level of Piper and Orndoff, either. It's a tricky balance but you do want to make sure any stuff with Mr. T is kept simple because then it looks better, doesn't bury Mr. T while, at the same time, making it clear enough to the fans that Mr. T isn't instantly ready to be at the level of every pro wrestler on the card. * As far as celebrities today go who could instantly draw attention to WWE, Tim Tebow, Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga are obvious examples. I don't know if Kim Kardashian could draw enough attention, but she seems to be the current example of the celebrity everybody loves to hate. That being said, I don't think current WWE Creative would have a clue how to capitalize on any celebrity's popularity. * On the 1999 Royal Rumble, I have far less issues with Vince McMahon winning than I do with how the entire match got booked. The match should have been booked around these concepts: - Steve Austin wants to get his hands on Vince McMahon. - Vince McMahon wants Austin eliminated and has put up the bounty as a result. - The Corporation is more than happy to do Austin's bidding. - DX has an issue with The Corporation, to the point that they show zero interest in the bounty on Austin and just want to take out The Corporation, thereby upsetting Vince McMahon. Take those four concepts and it's pretty easy to book the match, where early on, wrestlers are trying to claim the bounty but to no avail, until Corporation cronies start coming out and Austin's having more difficulty keeping himself in the match given how long he's been out there. All this time, McMahon has been the only one to jump through the ropes, thus technically not eliminated, and spends all his time doing commentary. DX comes out toward the end and now Vince is up in arms about why DX won't get the bounty. Comes down to Austin vs. Corporation member, Austin sends Corp guy out, throws Vince back in, Rock comes out and assists Vince in eliminating Austin. Granted, it may not be a booking outcome that is popular among everyone, but it makes for a match that has a far better storyline. Instead, we had Russo wanting to do other stuff, such as Viscera joining the Ministry of Darkness and Kane getting chased out by the orderlies, leading to multiple spurts in which it's pretty clear wrestlers are just being sent out so a big man can toss them out, then we do an angle that adds nothing to the match and results in somebody coming out and just waiting around -- all the while with Austin not being out there for half the match. So… it's not really the end result of that Rumble that bothers me, but the flow of the match as a whole. Keep your focus on Austin-Vince-Corporation-DX and now you are getting somewhere, and do your other stuff some other time.

Did I manage to pull out the guy people would immediately think to compare to HHH? I agree with you that Jarrett is a better worker than HHH, but I suspect there will be plenty to discuss when you consider the nepotism talking point.

Outback Jack. Perfect example of vignettes that were pretty clever yet the guy they were hyping did nothing of note.

So when was the last time any wrestler did the following: * 10-punch count in the corner. * Ramming wrestler into the turnbuckles as the audience counts along. * Double noggin knocker in a tag match.

Oh, and I may as well throw a few names on to the pile... I don't think they've been mentioned yet. Goldberg Ray Traylor Scott Steiner Paul Roma Mike Von Erich Jeff Jarrett Booker T Louie Spicolli Ernest Miller Mikey Whipwreck

Wow, what a thread. Amazing what I miss when I disappear from the forum for some time. Just going over one point, regarding how it can be "closer than you think" between HHH and Nash. HHH, as a worker, tries to be like Flair and Race when he really isn't and is never going to have a chance. He does have more matches that would be considered great than Nash does, but there's a difference between the two as workers. Bad HHH matches come about because HHH thinks he can carry anyone to a long match and he can't Bad Nash matches come when Nash is lazy. But Nash has never been of the mindset that he can carry anybody to a long match -- when he is motivated, he puts forth some good work, and it's not simply him being carried. And when motivated, Nash understands his limitations and doesn't try to do something he's not good at, which is something HHH tends to do too much. In terms of workrate, sure, HHH is better than Nash, but I can see the argument it's not by a large margin. In terms of charisma, Nash has the edge. When he talks and looks to draw the crowd into matches, he's far better at it. HHH always just gives the same old look to the crowd, who reacts depending on how hot his current program is. Nash has an easier time getting people to react to him and not just by outright burying guys... granted, Nash isn't at top-draw level in that department, but he does a better job of getting crowds to react to him than HHH does. Interviews... as much as I want to give this to Nash, I can't. Nash can put forth solid interviews when he wants to but he has more than his fair share when he's actively trying to bury people. HHH has that same flaw... when HHH has a decent interview, though, it doesn't quite grab me the same as a solid Nash interview does. If we include drawing power (although I don't think we are really discussing that), HHH certainly holds that over Nash, even if one debates how much drawing power HHH should really be credited with. But if you stick with workrate, charisma and interviews, it goes like this: HHH wins workrate, Nash wins charisma and I guess it's a tossup on interviews, unless you solely look at the interviews where they don't just try to bury their opponent, in which case I think Nash is slightly ahead. So, yes, the two are closer than people would think. As far as an OMG remark made earlier goes, if anyone looks at just his WWF work, then yeah, people will go crazy, but if you include his other work, he jumps ahead of HHH. And, really, there are instances in WWF when he puts out some really good work. I wonder if that OMG/Savage match from SNME (not the WM IV match) is still out there, because I recall that one being really good.

Torch link worked for me just now. Who knows. I finished reading Jericho's second book and he was pretty clear that he didn't like 2002 booking and wasn't a fan of the Lucy the Dog angle. Where he puts over his work with Steph was during his 2000 run, not his 2001/2022 run, other than how much fun he and Rock had poking fun at Steph's breast implants. And, really, I think a big reason the Jericho/Steph stuff worked better in 2000 was because Steph was far better with her character then. In 2001 and 2002, she tried to be like her Daddy... and failed.

I bought the new Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson DVD, which is different from the first set that was released, as it has a more in-depth documentary and Rock talking about his career. It was pretty interesting to hear Rock admit that he really felt he was in competition with the likes of Austin and HHH, to the point he really wasn't that close to them to start. Of course, we've known he's had issues in the past with HHH, but regarding Austin, he kind of saw him as a threat as well. They don't really include many comments from Austin, though HHH has a lot to say (and he is mostly praising of Rock). When they get to his stuff with John Cena, that's when you have Cena entering kayfabe mode. The way Rock is talking on the DVD toward the end of the documentary, he's implying he plans to be with the WWE for the long haul -- as if he'll do more frequent appearances alongside his movie schedule. And they talked to Warren Sapp, who was one of Rock's teammates at the University of Miami -- not just about his football days but his wrestling days. The matches featured on this DVD are all different from the ones on the first DVD release, so the two complement each other well. His debut match at Survivor Series is included and that match actually holds up pretty well. And Rock-Lesnar is included! Overall, I thought it was a well-produced DVD. I think the recent Austin DVD is stronger overall, but the new Rock DVD is enjoyable.

“Debra 2:20 says I got arrested for beating up my wife.” That made me laugh out loud for some reason -- as did plenty of other lines in the review.

Having dragged the discussion about TNA possibly being the worst wrestling promotion ever to another board, somebody inquired if the wrestling world would be better off without TNA, and if it folded, could somebody step up to fill the void for an alternative to WWE? I think we all know TNA is only able to be a true alternative for those who are considered the top guys in that company, whereas anyone lower on the card gets very little and would be better off under a WWE developmental deal, but I do believe when the person who posed those questions did so, he was thinking more about whether or not somebody could rise up to be a true No. 2 promotion that could provide a place other than WWE for wrestlers to head to, make a reasonable salary and give fans an alternative to watch each week. Now, granted, the chances of this happening are extremely slim in today's environment, but I figured it might be worth some discussion. Here's what I wrote about what it would take for such a promotion to become reality.... ------------------------ As far as a second company goes, regardless of what it may be, given the current environment, you have to have the following elements in place for whoever the promoter may be: 1. He has to have a vision in place for what he wants the promotion to be like and the audience he wants to cater to -- and to compete with WWE, he needs to be able to attract fans on a broad scale, not a narrow one. 2. He needs to have patience for his vision to become reality and not expect a quick fix. 3. He needs to understand he's not going to get an immediate return on the money he invests and he's going to have to take some chances with the money he spends. That doesn't mean he can spend money foolishly, but he will have to put some money with the idea that he may lose money at first before he starts making a profit. 4. He needs to know how to sell his vision to a company that owns a cable network -- because without cable, he's not going to make any progress. Syndication won't work because he's not guaranteed to reach as large of an audience as he would with cable. More importantly, he needs to convince such a network that the promotion doesn't need every big name available to get attention. 5. He needs to know who to have on staff in terms of production, booking and laying out matches -- and he can't just rely on everybody who has done it before. He needs to know enough about those who haven't had a chance to put their ideas forth on a larger scale, yet haven't been around in the business for so long that they are set in their ways and won't really change. 6. Most of all, he needs to know which wrestler he should build his company around. That wrestler has to be somebody who understands at least the basics of putting a match together, how to connect with the crowd, how to get his opponents over as much as he gets himself over, and that he can be the guy who will relate to the audience the promoter wants to target. And that wrestler has to be entering the prime of his career -- anyone who is too inexperienced or past his prime won't cut it. The promoter also needs to know what wrestlers are available that can play complementary roles or provide potential challenges for the top guy. Now, all of this is easier said than done. There are some issues this promoter is going to have to confront. Regarding money: He has to either have it himself or find those who are willing to put it up and show as much as patience as he needs to show. Regarding TV networks: He needs to do a really good sell job as most cable networks aren't interested in a pro wrestling product these days, unless they get smitten by any "big names" associated with it. Regarding talent: He's likely going to have to find a WWE midcard act who shows potential to become a main eventer but isn't getting that recognition -- and chances are, it's going to be somebody who WWE willingly cuts ties with, which means a salvage job will have to be done, or somebody whose contract is up for renewal and he is able to lure the guy out with money and promises, to the point that midcarder is willing to take the chance on the new promotion. Regarding patience: That's something that is in short supply these days, as too many folks these days are seeking instant results, not results that develop over the long term. So... while the chance is there that somebody could step forward and fill the void left by TNA if it were to fold, the chances of it being a formidable rival to WWE are extremely slim. You would have to have the circumstances be nearly perfect, or otherwise, it would be like ROH at best -- able to do a decent job catering to a small segment of fans, but destined to remain on a small scale no matter what else you try. ------------- For the record, I don't think we are ever going to see a pro wrestling company emerge that can truly rival the WWE. But that's not to say it will never happen -- but as I wrote, circumstances would have to be nearly perfect for that to happen. But it still may be worth discussion, if others feel differently.

What really makes the case for TNA being the worst wrestling promotion of all time is that other companies that went through two years of awful booking either died or were clearly on life support and the plug was pulled shortly thereafter. With TNA, given that the 2005-2006 run, up to the point when Russo returned, was considered to be good television, we now have TNA going on five-and-a-half years of awful booking and the company is still in existence. Regardless of the reasons why it still exists, I think we have our worst wrestling promotion ever. Five-and-a-half years of horrible booking with everything they tried, failing miserably, certainly seems to cements its case.

I'm surprised Bill Goldberg hasn't been mentioned yet. WWE had no clue how to book Goldberg, from having him do segments backstage for laughs to the SummerSlam EC match in which he was plowing through everybody, only to get killed by HHH. For all of WCW's faults, the company generally was smart enough to not try to "reinvent the wheel" with most of the top wrestlers who came over from WWE, even if they weren't always pushed properly. WWF/E, on the other hand, has often tried to alter WCW's top wrestlers into WWF/E's own image. It's the chief reason why I think Sting was smart to stay with WCW throughout his entire career. Back to Goldberg, poor booking in WCW did hurt his drawing power, but somebody who was smart enough to get him back on track might have been able to make him marketable again. Agreed on O'Haire, who Bischoff was pretty high on. Chuck Palumbo is another one that comes to mind, as he generally got praise from WCW folks for his in-ring work, but was lost in the shuffle in WWE. And no, I don't consider the Billy-Chuck angle to be anything that helped Palumbo. Lance Storm might have fared better had WCW not gone under. He was pushed strongly from the time he debuted there and he would at least have been a guy who could be a regular upper midcarder who is credible enough to put into main events.

Madden's silly analogy about Hogan and Rock aside, underneath that bluster is a valid point: Hogan is still using his "star power" to manipulate people who don't know any better. Sure, it might mean the end of Russo in TNA, but that doesn't mean things are going to get better -- more likely, things are going to get worse. Especially if Bischoff is still on board and still trying to capture lightning in a bottle.

Wow, we covered the whole range of topics in this one thread. Where do I start? * Have to agree that Slaughter wouldn't have drawn for long as the face champion in WWF. Ultimately, Hogan would have entered the picture and he could do so much more in terms of programs you could have. Slaughter as a face was destined for a midcard role ala Hacksaw Jim Duggan. You can only do USA vs. evil foreigner so much. Heck, when Hogan headlined Wrestlemania and had a program built up to the show, Slaughter is the only example of USA vs. "foreigner" storyline. I don't count Hogan vs. Yoko because that wasn't built up for WM, it just happened on the show. * Regarding WWF vs. WCW pay, if you were a top guy in JCP/WCW, you were going to get paid well. I think Bill Watts is the only executive VP who brought in the mentality of "you want to get paid well, you earn it," but otherwise, none of the folks in charge thought twice about paying somebody a good amount of money unless they had a personal conflict with the guy (case in point: Herd regarding Flair). Plus, if you had strong ties to JCP/WCW, and you went to WWF, Vince often wanted to remake you in his idea of what your character should be. It's why they didn't refer to Ric Flair that much as The Nature Boy (heck, I remember the first WWF Magazine story about Flair and they called him The Champ) and why they tried the Narcissist and Made in the USA gimmicks with Luger. The Steiners and Tully/Arn didn't really get a makeover but they were always going to be in the midcard anyway. Go up to I-C title level and Vince wanted to make you in his image. So for a guy like Rude, who never had a strong tie with JCP, it was always better for him to jump and get established. And yes, with Rude, that leads to the "if you were big in WWF, you would get pushed big in WCW." * Without veering this off topic, I'll just say this regarding one-hit wonders in music: Neither Survivor nor Bonnie Tyler qualifies because they had multiple top 40 hits, had albums that did good business and had a pretty good run in general as far as success in music. One-hit wonders, to me, are those who have just one top 40 hit, don't have strong album sales overall, weren't big in their particular genre and didn't have a lasting amount of success overall. If you want an example of a true one-hit wonder, think somebody like M or Toni Basil.