Bob Morris

True, but Bugs probably had more instances of being willing to sell for somebody and he did reverse roles several times with Elmer.

Some points regarding Montreal: * When Dave Meltzer in his summary talked about Bret willing to put people over, I don't think he meant "people he was willing to drop the belt to." As has been discussed, putting somebody over doesn't necessarily mean losing a match to them. As examples, Bret got a non-title match with HHH changed from a screwy pinfall to a count out loss, but he tapped out for Ken Shamrock in a match that went to a no contest. It's been a long time since I've seen the matches, but as I recall, the way things went down, he put Shamrock over but not HHH. That's more what Dave was talking about. * I agree there would have been no chance of Bret showing up on Nitro the night after Survivor Series. He would have been in violation of the 30-day notice period and he knew it. If that wasn't an issue, the instant Montreal went down, he would have boarded a plane to Nitro to stick it to Vince right then and there. * Really, I think both Bret and Vince were paranoid about things: Bret about losing his status as a top guy and Vince about what Ted Turner would do (I would say Bischoff, but with Vince, it was Turner he was paranoid about and I'm sure he thinks everything Bischoff did, Turner was behind it).

Oh, and since we brought up HHH and the Muppets showing up, I can't resist: Statler: "Well, that HHH match is what you call a medium match?" Waldorf: "Why do you call it a medium match?" Statler: "Well, it wasn't rare... and it certainly wasn't well done!" (Hearty old man laughter ensues)

If that happens, I'm definitely watching Raw more often.

*WRONG* Most awesomely AWESOME entrance music EVER. Instantly knew which song this was going to be just by looking at the video title. Haven't heard it in years but it's been perma stuck in my head ever since and ocasionally i'll just randomly sing that shit around the house even now... Still recall every detail of how it came about too. Orndorff was on a big losing streak and getting all depressed about it, then 1 day a famous tv psychic in a bad curly grey wig (forget his name) appears before him to cheer him up and reimind him that he's MR WONDERFUL dag nabbit and next thing you know he's got this spiffy new song and a magic mirror and he's beating ass again. Greatest of greatness the whole thing.... I didn't click for the video right away, then I read your post and now I'll never get that entrance out of my head... or Bobby Heenan whistling along to the song.

Agreed with those who say that putting the Big 4 PPVs on the WWE Network is a bad idea. I agree with cm funk that it would make more sense to cut the total PPVs down and go with what amounts to special shows on WWE Network. They could take the same approach TBS did with Clash of the Champions, in which they air a special show to pop a good rating and perhaps lure some people into buying the PPVs offered.

1989 after Dusty Rhodes left is kind of hard to pinpoint, but I do know Sullivan and Ross were both part of the mix. Rhodes came back in 1991 and was the main booker under Frye. There was a transitional period between Watts and Bischoff with Shaw in charge and Ole booking along with Rhodes. Bob Mould did come on board in 1999 and left shortly after Russo and Ferrara arrived, but Mould was part of a committee that included Rhodes, Sullivan and Taylor.

I think the key to really being a good heel is one who will do a lot to put the face over as a threat, yet once he's in control, the fans can tell he can back up some of what he says. In other words, the fan can buy the heel as a threat, but somebody who is still beatable. With Honky, the issue was that he was the guy who few ever bought as a threat. That's why the gimmick of him getting DQ'ed or counted out to save the title wore out over time and that the only possible way to end his reign was for Warrior to squash him in 30 seconds, then for Honky to bump around like a pinball for Warrior in rematches. You didn't have to do that with Flair or Arn... sure, there would be times in which they would get frustrated and act like they were going to walk back to the dressing room. But they'd eventually return because they really didn't want to lose, even if it meant they would keep the title (compared to Honky, who was all about "save my title"). They would bitch and stooge for opponents quite a bit, but there was enough done in their matches that fans could buy them as a threat to win. At the same time, they did enough for the opponent to make it clear they were beatable.

Where it seems to be a bigger issue is that the guys who continued wrestling past their primes, and did so on a regular basis, are the ones clearly running out of steam. Compare that to those who step away for some time, then return... they tend to be fresher. With Flair, he just kept on going. The breaks that he had weren't really by his choice. Had Flair taken time off on his own accord, then returned for brief periods or appearances, he probably would have done a better job of extending his career. Instead, he's out there too much and a lot of people can observe just how bad he looks. Compare that to Terry Funk, who seems to be "in and out" of the business, returning for short periods or brief appearance before leaving again. People don't really notice it that much not just because it's a novelty act, but because he's gone about as quickly as he returned, you don't have a ton of matches and appearances to notice that he's not the same wrestler he used to be.

The behind-the-scenes stuff does interest me, but it's not stuff I necessarily dwell on. Gossipy stuff is definitely "take it or leave it" for me, although when I read about some of the stuff about Matt Hardy, for example, I'm not thinking about "what a moron Matt is" but about "I really don't want to see Matt end up on the list of wrestlers who died at an early age." I do find some of the best/worst stuff pretty interesting. Match reviews tend to vary for me based on what we are talking about. I really do like the historical perspective stuff that gets discussed, though, and the WON recaps are definitely up there as they really give more details as to what was going on at the time, rather than the "short versions" that tend to get discussed elsewhere. The Dave Meltzer thread is also a highlight as Dave debunks certain beliefs and can give detailed perspective on a particular issue. I wish he did that more often, though... some of the thread has turned into the not-so-good things Dave has written about.

I demand that HHH sell for Statler and Waldorf just like Milton Berle did. For those who don't know what I'm talking about:

This. A thousand times this. Obviously, you need to be able to do some adjustments as you go along from show to show because of unanticipated events (i.e, injuries) but you need to have at least some sense of where you want to be in the long term. Booking show to show, as appears to be the case, doesn't work that well. You might stumble upon something really good, but then you aren't going to understand how to properly follow up on it. Then again, our society has a lot of "instant gratification" and "live for the moment" and "short-term thinking" these days, so I suppose what WWE is doing is par for the course in today's environment.

At the very least, you would think they would have made sure Nash was physically able to wrestle before deciding they were going to have him be part of a PPV match.

With regards to Austin, I was more annoyed by the stuff because it was just an excuse to get the "Austin stunnered somebody" pop from the crowd. And he was supposed to be the GM, who was told "touch anyone when unprovoked and you are fired" and then Austin decides to taunt the heels to get them provoked. So really, if a heel laid out Austin in response to his taunts, Austin deserved it. Of course, I don't think one heel ever got to lay out Austin (Kane is the only one that comes to mind, and as I remember, it was to turn Kane heel).

I dunno, if Starrcade was ever revived in WWE, it would become just another show. Vince really doesn't show interest in making anything but Wrestlemania or SummerSlam as a "must-see" PPV these days... and while the Royal Rumble is a popular PPV, I've always felt that has more to do with fans liking the Rumble match and having interest to see who wins to get the title shot. Survivor Series used to be portrayed as a bigger deal but now it's just another PPV. I know King of the Ring didn't last long as a PPV but it was generally treated with importance. Today, we get two shows treated as must-sees, the Rumble living on a popular match and everything else is just there. If Starrcade were revived, it would be no different.

The fact is, there are easy ways to adjust the booking so that Hogan truly comes off as the sympathetic babyface. Allow me to explain: * Orndorff: Two Heenan family members attack Orndorff when Hogan isn't at the arena. Orndorff complains that Hogan should be watching his back. Next show, Hogan gets attacked by the Heenan family, Orndorff isn't around. Hogan doesn't blame Orndorff, saying the Heenan family is responsible. Heenan goes on a tirade about Hogan is supposed to be the American hero and there at all times for his friends. Orndorff buys what Heenan is saying and turns on Hogan. * Bossman at the Rumble: After Bossman and Akeem toss Hogan, Bossman goes outside the ring to beat up Hogan some more (going through the ropes as Gorilla and Jesse note Bossman has to go over the top rope to be eliminated). Hogan Hulks up, but Akeem comes through the ropes and it's a double team again. Beefcake is next out, comes to help Hogan. Akeem fends off Beefcake, tosses him into the ring and follows him in. Bossman returns, he and Akeem double team, but one attempt backfires and Akeem accidentally eliminates Bossman. Hogan Hulks up again, pummels Bossman in retaliation, Bossman tries the nightstick again, but Hogan prevents it, gets the nightstick and chases Bossman back to the dressing room. * Andre: Hogan and Andre get their trophies, but Hogan said Andre's deserves the trophy he (Hogan) got. Andre still remarks about how many years Hogan has held the belt. Hogan is later asked about it and he says he'll give Andre a title shot whenever he wants it. Andre turns him down initially, but then Heenan sells Andre on the idea that Hogan is just trying to make Andre feel better and, if Hogan really wanted to give him a title shot, he'd do more than just say he can have one, but get the contract ready. Heenan promises he'll do it, Andre gives in to Heenan and Hogan is shocked. * Sid at the Rumble: Comes down to the final four, with Sid having just eliminated Martel and Piper, but Savage hits Sid from behind and tries to toss him. Flair gives Hogan a low blow, capitalizes on Savage being occupied and eliminates him. Flair turns back to Hogan, but here's the Hulk up. Sid is getting back to his feet as Hogan works over Flair. Hogan turns to Sid, offers him a shot at Flair, and Sid motions for Hogan to have Flair to himself. Just as Hogan is about to eliminate Flair, Sid sneaks up behind Hogan and dumps him. Sid then steps over the ropes and drops to the floor to eliminate himself. He later joins Flair and high-fives him, revealing he was simply there to ensure Flair won the title in the end. It's not too difficult to book this stuff so Hogan is clearly the guy fans want to sympathize with. Instead we got a product of the 1980's "me generation." NWA/WCW may not have been drawing the money but the folks there generally understood how to do a better job of booking a sympathetic babyface.

To me, the issue with Hogan acting like a dick as a babyface character was when the person he acted like a dick to may have been a jerk, but did nothing to Hogan personally, or Hogan's actions was absolutely Hogan being selfish. Hogan may have been a dick in not returning Orndorff's calls, but it's hard to say Orndorff was then justified in ambushing him during a tag team match. Orndorff may have believed Hogan was a jerk, but then he acted like a jerk in return. On the other hand, Hogan coming out to Hart's defense and then helping himself to a title shot was simply Hogan being a jerk toward Hart, with Hart having done nothing to Hogan. Ditto for Sid eliminating Hogan fair and square in the Royal Rumble and Bossman and Akeem doing the same, with Hogan pouting about it. And the other thing that always bothered me was, when Jesse called Hogan on illegal tactics, Vince did a terrible job of explaining things. It's one thing to say, "I know it's illegal but Hogan is upset, so I can understand why." But Vince never called it that way, he just said along the lines of "Hogan is justified because he is." Whenever Jesse justified a heel's action, he made sure to explain why he believed he was justified and not just "because he is."

Well, then send Madden the links to Bix's BR stuff about the Hardys and all of us mostly ripping the Hardy to shreds just so his head can spin... even if Madden will never publicly admit that to be the case.

Agree with Bix. It's gotten to the point that Matt and Jeff just don't care. There were more signs that Jake Roberts cared, even as he has never been able to kick his addictions. Even so, Roberts looks better when compared to Matt and Jeff Hardy, and it's not just because YouTube wasn't around when Roberts was at his worst. And I would have to look it up, but I believe Britney Spears actually listened to family members and friends who cared for her and got help. Stepping out of the spotlight alone wasn't what got Spears to get her act together.

Mongo was trying too hard to be the color commentator who could deliver snappy one-liners, only he failed every single time.

I agree that a reason a lot of other attempts to push certain WWF title holders didn't work because they were turned into what amounted to being "the next Hulk Hogan." Bret was allowed to be a bit cocky but not enough of an edge to him. That being said, he did draw well overseas and the feuds he was booked in generally worked well. Diesel was immediately turned from being the cool, cocky and confident tough guy into a squeaky-clean wimp. I don't know how well he would have done overall given a lack of good opponents to work with, though, but they should have done his feud with Sid as a blood feud, in which it's clear Diesel is out to kick his ass and hold no regrets about it. And Mabel was a bad choice for a SummerSlam opponent. Michaels suffered from the same problem... he wasn't squeaky clean but they sure made him look like a wimp. The Bulldog feud had good matches but the premise of the feud was so unconvincing. And I know Michaels didn't like working with Vader, but Vader was the right opponent to allow Michaels to prove how tough he was. I don't think Warrior quite related to WWF fans the same way Hogan did, but it didn't help that Warrior tended to be second fiddle to Hogan.

The debut of Nitro, which led to the launch of the Monday Night Wars and certainly a fun period for wrestling fans. Austin's KOTR speech, which set the wheels in motion for his new character. Had they done a better job with the Goldberg title win, I might put it as one of the best ever. It's a great moment on its own, but can you imagine how much stronger it would have been going on PPV and leading to a reign in which it was absolutely clear Goldberg was No. 1 in the company? (For the record, Goldberg may have been the draw, but the booking still made Hogan look like he was No. 1.)

Tony's laughter during "hardcore" matches always bothered me. I remember when they did that "Mexican hardcore" match on Nitro and all he did was laugh at every spot... and during a match that was actually pretty solid.

Catching up on posts, but in watching the Punk promo that started the thread, it was clear he was positioning himself as the heel. Now, in reading the booking for SummerSlam, they used an angle that would, to me, make Punk a babyface, a mere month after that strong heel promo. Personally, I can't buy into a guy turning babyface barely a month after a strong heel promo. The ideas themselves may have been good, but turning a guy babyface so soon after a strong heel performance just doesn't make sense to me.

I think Hogan belongs at No. 1 because of his reign was a key part of the wrestling landscape changing so much. Austin would be No. 2 and Bruno would be No. 3, IMO, with Rock likely at No. 4 (I don't put him ahead of Bruno because Rock's reigns tended to be short, frequent runs, not a relatively sustained run). Who would be No. 5 is a tougher question. Maybe Cena but that's just off the top of my head.