El-P

What ? One has strictly nothing to do with the other. It doesn't matter what company you are working with or what are you beliefs or political opinions. Being sexually harassed is being sexually harassed.

I should write the "Case against selling, psychology and storytelling used as magic words to defend mediocre shit" and the "Case for moves and pro-wrestling as an anti-psychologic, anti-narrative, free-form musical-like way of producing an acceptable form of aesthetic greatness"

There, I stand corrected. What is supposed to be the best match BTW? because from where I stand, this Mania was the complete shits too.

Am I supposed to believe for one second that Cena vs Taker would not have gather more interest ? Come on. The fact that Shane-O Mac was any kind of draw for the WWE audience says everything you need to know about the WWE audience as a whole.

WrestleMania 32 (2016) – Undertaker vs Shane McMahon Because apparently, having two terrible Hell in the Cell matches at Mania wasn’t enough. Talk about wanking off your ego and power. This 44 years old non-wrestler who made a career out of taking huge stupid bumps because he did not have to actually work every day of the week for a living has now managed to get his Taker match at Mania. And he’s there parading with his already annoying offsprings, those spoiled little brats who won't have to work a day of their lives because they are born rich thanks to grandaddy (because you dad is a failure as a businessman, kids). Speaking of awful people, here’s Linda in the crowd, Miss Let’s Re-elect Donald Trump. Ok, I’m going off topic, but still, this is the theme of this match, it’s less about Taker than about the McMahons and the fact the idiot son and godawful performer (at least Stephy has been useful at some points and actually fun to watch) gets a Mania match with Taker instead of say, John motherfucking Cena ? Yeah, who want to see this, people are dying for Shane-O Mac jerking off in public instead. I mean, every other wrestlers including Shawn Micheals and Triple H were intimidated by the perspective of facing Taker at Mania, but not Shane, oh no. He’s here doing his stupid-ass pseudo MMA bullshit and running around while looking blown up and red in the face after only a few short minutes. Shane has always sucked, nothing he ever did looked any good, he’s just good for throwing himself into shit (that's called osmosis). Taker, who has grown his hair back, doesn’t really give a fuck. He’s old, he’s fat, he’s getting the money, he’s getting potatoed by the rich son-of-CEO and is trying to make a late 90’s Attitude Era match out of it. Shane not looking scared one bit is a complete disgrace, it pretty much negates the entirety of Taker’s career, especially at Mania. Last Ride after a few minutes only and Shane kicks out, why the fuck not, *everything* about this match his a disgrace. Shane gets Taker into his own kinda crappy MMA Submission and makes it looks even worse. The announcers talking about Shane possibly defeating Taker is downright pathetic, really. Chokeslam on the steps and guess what, Shane kicks out of course. Shane is the toughest motherfucker in the WWE Universe, Triple H and Shawn Micheals ain’t shit. Taker actually takes a bump on the steal too so it looks like he really wants to make it something. What would you not do for your bosses, uh ? Shane is also not phased at all by the zombie sit-up. I mean, even THIS he won’t sell one bit, he’s just punching Taker in the face. Then Shane the MMA expert reverses Hell’s Gate into a... sharpshooter. I mean, why not, at this point watching this match is like being high as a kite. We’ve finally reached that point were both look gassed as fuck and Shane still wants to do his RVD spot. Because he’s a wanker. Everything has to be about HIM, as demonstrated by the announcers going all SHANE MCMAHON SHANE MCMAHON SHANE MCMAHON all the time. Enough, you already have a job. The replay is funny as fuck though as basically the Coast to Coast spot ends up with Shane kicking a garbage can who is laying on Taker’s beer gut, so yeah, total death spot. Oh wait ! There’s more ! Shane gets a bolt cutter to open up the HitC, like this gimmick had not been abused enough yet. Speaking of which, Taker is pushing Shane *through* the cage now. I have no idea why the crowd is chanting « This is awesome », because this is only one thing : dumb as fuck. And it gets truly pathetic as we’re rearranging tables now. In a Hell in the Cell match, which is like the most open bar cage match ever at this point. Slo-mo brawl toward the crowd now and I miss the Big Boss man getting hung. Taker is now jumping through a table with Shane on his back. Because that damn sleeper was too tightly applied or something. Shane O-Mac, the master of the sleeper, you can’t break it at all, you have to throw yourself through a fucking table to hope he’ll break the hold. He’s also the master of the toolbox in the face... Is this shit happening ? Any other two guys doing the same godawful, pace-less, awfully executed bullshit would get slaughtered, but here the crowd is chanting for Shane-O Mac because he bashed a toolbox in Taker’s face. You know what, these people deserved to watch this godawful Mania, which has been infamous for being maligned as a complete chore. And now of course you know how this ends, Shane O-Mac wants to do « better » than Mick Foley in 1998. Because he’s a wanker. So he does that stupid-ass jump (in front of his spoiled brat children and wife, so he also wants to outdo Foley in the "terrible irresponsible parent" category apparently). I would not have showed any pity whatsoever if he had killed himself, really. Not only was this whole thing only designed to feed his fragile ego of rich kid, but it sent the worst message possible to performers : that this kind of dangerous shit was still « relevant » in 2016. People chanting « This is awesome » are complete idiots (and they were the same shitting on Roman Reigns later on ? Really now ? That’s food for thoughts...). This is easily some of the worst shit I’ve seen in 30 years of watching pro-wrestling. If I had been watching a Shane-O Mac sextape with him jizzing all over the screen, I would have felt less dirty than I did watching this. 12-1-11

Funny that, greatest Cena match to me, by probably a wide margin. The fact he could work such a match against AJ at this point of his career made me re-think about his case (although I doubt I'd call him a great worker in the grand scheme of things, but a guy who could have great matches with the right opponent, absolutely)

You made me laugh out loud legit with this one ! Funniest analogy I've seen in a long loooong time !

Actually, I replied there because Ryan seemed to be under the impression we thought Tony K. said it or something. And I did not quote you nor singled you out, just mentioned it came from the board, not Tony K., so... And yes, it is kind of a fun and harmless running gag (plus I really like Christian). Exactly this !

Apart from a few matches against monsters (yeah, I know about the infamous Umaga match everybody loves), most of Cena's big match stuff (Orton, Batista, Triple H, Orton, Orton, Rock, Orton) was indeed the super-pattern WWE self-conscious epics with finishers kick outs galore. Hell, I coined the self-conscious epic phrase from a famous and typical Cena match (against Punk). And honestly he never was better and more fun than when he decided he was gonna go batshit with the spotfest style to try and catch up with Owens or Styles (who's not a spotfest worker BTW but that's another matter, he just could do stuff Cena had never seen before) later on, despite always having a crappy looking execution. Cena's selling only got him boos from half of the audience after all, while Cena doing Canadian Destroyers got him WTF cheers.

Indeed. And it's not like he was of any value anyway. He was a crappy worker who only got over for a short while because he had two hot dancers doing his intro. This NWA "reboot" is going absolutely nowhere.

Quite the opposite actually. Until now, they always delivered on their promises and more. From that point of view, I would agree. It definitely sends the message that the guy who made his comeback at the Rumble would rather sign with the hot new thing than be at this year's Mania. But from the AEW audience standpoint, it's yet another WWE guy in their late 40's showing up, the second in a matter of two weeks. Which is not something that you want, no matter who they are. Of course Christian is the best guy of the bunch who could have realistically showed up. But still... there's a TNA feel somewhere with this a signing and announcement too, they should be very careful in how they use him if they don't want to send the wrong message (ie : former WWE guy who was never a main eventer there is equal to our best guys, despite also being 47). Someone on the thread tried to justify the fact that Christian was a "huge huge star" (the words of Coach Tony K) because he was a "Top 5 star" during the Attitude Era. Which was rightfully made fun of to no end.

Riki Choshu says hello (followed by Satoshi Kojima).

I wonder what the ratio is of Flair actually winning any important match with a submission though ! The point about submission is just completely dumb, but I would not be surprised to hear the same thing about guys not winning with their finishers.

Kinda. Can't figure if the whole thing worked just enough to make it a W or failed just enough to make it a L.

Chapter 9 : A useless post-Streak WrestleMania 31 (2015) – Undertaker vs Bray Wyatt So what to do now that the Streak is over ? In a way, maybe it could be the opportunity to just have a good Taker match at Mania (which doesn't have a number attached to its name anymore, as I guess the Brand is more than enough plus you don't want to date yourself) without the pressure of the damn Streak and questions about how to make it more epic than the previous years. Bray Wyatt wasn’t the worst choice for an opponent as his character, as said about a gazillion times by the announcers is the New Face of Fear (although honestly, after watching that match I’d rather have Meng). Let’s face it, when Bray Wyatt debuted he was the new hot and cool thing, with the great creepy entrance and actual good music theme for a change. The issue is that the New Face of Fear choked at his first Mania against John Cena, who was already on the outs. So, that’s a pretty good feud for him to challenge the Old Face of Fear at Mania. And he gets the superstar entrance, with a bunch of scarecrows scattered all over the giant entrance. Wyatt does come off like star still. Taker’s entrance is the most classic, although under the sun at dusk it’s a wee bit too shiny to get the full effect, but the crowd is delighted to have another Taker match as they are way more vocal than the previous year. Too vocal actually, as they’ll twice chants some aggravating bullshit... The issue with this match though is clear pretty quickly : Bray Wyatt brings jackshit to the table once the bell rings. I mean, Taker, who looks in better shape than the previous year, is playing a bunch of hits, the legdrop outside, the Snake-Eyes big boot combo (countered, but still) and even a good lil’ Old-School which he hasn’t done in years now and which gets an annoying « You’ve still got it ! » chant by the crowd. I’d be pissed if I were Taker. But once Bray gets on offense, it’s Randy Orton-level boring. Super weak-ass punching, a bunch of kicking, a resthold and really a whole lot of nothing happening, at a slow pace too because that’s Taker’s pace now. The « highlight » of Wyatt’s offense is a uranage/senton combo, but after that points it’s super dry and absolutely uninteresting. So basically they have to move to the kick-out-of-finishers ending stretch, with Bray kicking out of the Tombstone, as everybody has done in, what now, 6 years straight so that’s just business as usual. Then of course Taker kicks out of Bray’s finisher, because that's the only way they know. Then Bray will do that crazy pose he does (which really is not creepy at all once you realize it’s just a yoga pose and you’ve done it yourself), which is « countered » by Taker’s zombie sit-up and the crowds goes « This is awesome » when clearly, it’s not. Shot exchange, which is a staple of Taker’s matches for years now, Bray finisher’s countered into the Tombstone. And that's that... Not one singular, interesting nor believable nearfall. Apart from Taker playing a few old hits this was nothing as Bray really brought zilch to the table for such a big match on paper. It totally exposed him as being nothing but an intro and a « demonic » look. I guess you could have done this kind of « play the hits » match for a few years still, as the crowd was obviously super happy to just see Taker. It's like he’s basically part of the setting of Mania now, like... the giant ramp... As an actual match, this was a complete dud. 12-1-10

And there goes the n°1 vote for Christian...

Kind of a backhanded compliment honestly. But yeah, she was head and shoulders above everyone else. She's also HOF worthy and was a biggest star than Christian during the Attitude Era.

This. Who the fuck cares about Christian Cage or botched explosions ? Maki Itoh is the greatest thing ever.

Considering where he works, he should probably rename himself Austin QAnon Theory.

And it wasn't very good. Steamboat really is all about matches. Apart from the throat thrashing angle in WWF, I can't even think of one memorable angle he was part of. Even as a character he was not very good. Karate guy in WWF was kinda lame, Family Man champ with his wife and kid at ringside in NWA was really, really lame, especially when you go against Flair.

That's one other thing that bothers me. Paul Wight was a surprise from nowhere, and it was cool in that sense, less in the sense of "Oh, an almost 50 years old guy from WWE shows up in AEW". But the fact he announces a big signing makes it seem like hey, no worry, the almost 50 years old guy from WWE is not the big deal here, something much more exciting is coming... and in fact, we get another almost 50 years old guy from WWE, who actually is not even as big a name as Big Show (much better addition to the roster in term of what he can bring to the company, yes, but not the "huge huge star" that was promised). It's almost like a ricochet of old WWE guy signing up and there is definitely a TNA feel to it (especially since Christian was the poster boy for this in TNA). This is not what you want at all. If anything, this entire show will teach AEW a lot of valuable lessons. They have showed in the past they were smart and learning, so let's see what's to come. I sure hope they make fun of the shitty explosion in BTE next week.

Matt & Jeff hardy > Bubba > Edge > D-Von > Christian. Yeah, he's 6 on those matches alone. He's actually n°1 in term of being a worker, but like it's been said, it's not what's debated here. The Godfather was over because he had a bunch of strippers in g-strings and hooker heels. Hell, Scotty 2 Hotty & Rikishi dancing were more over than Christian Cage during the Attitude Era... (which is why it's better when pro-wrestling tries to please the hardcore fans instead of a mainstream crowd) Debra's puppies were bigger stars. Let's get real here : Classic Attitude Era (1998/99) : Austin / The Rock / Mr. McMahon / Sable / Foley Later Attitude Era (00/01) : Austin / The Rock / Mr. McMahon / Triple H / dunno who the fifth might be but certainly not Christian, not even close.

Well, Maki Itoh got a bigger response than Christian, so there is that...

That's one hell of a promo he cut there. Also, he did not mention Triple H. Seriously now. Mr. Kennedy comeback for next year's Mania season ?

Chapter 8 : The end of the Streak WrestleMania XXX (2014) - Undertaker v Brock Lesnar So, here we are. There are a few very striking things about this match. First off, Taker’s entrance is pretty classic with the grim vision of all the caskets of his fallen victims (do Triple H really gets three caskets by the way ?), including one for Brock which opens up and then is struck by lightning. Second, despite the undeniable big match feel of the whole thing, the crowd is honestly super tedious for most of it, and really dead at first. Some light Taker chants never really take off, some light boos when Lesnar poses after beating down Taker. It’s really for the longest time a heatless match. And the match itself really doesn’t help, as for a good portion of it, it’s a downright dull and tedious affair. Brock starts off with a great belly to belly but after that point, it’s plodding city. He sells for Taker for a while, as Taker attacks his left arm, a set up for Hell’s Gate I guess, but Lesnar really will never sell his arm in a meaningful fashion anyway. Comparatively, Brock goes for Taker’s leg for a while, including a cool one legged takedown outside, but this is pretty much killing time in a rather slow and un-engaging fashion. But the one thing that is so striking is that Taker really looks old there. His body looks old, he gets gassed really quickly, he doesn’t even go up to the top rope before getting countered on the Old-School tease, he bumps awkward on the padded barricade outside. In other words, Taker really looks like an old dragon fighting his one match too many. Yeah, probably did not help that he got concussed early on. There’s this chokeslam early on following Snake Eyes for which Lesnar jumps really high. Later on when Taker does the Snake Eyes again, as if he was not able to dig into more of his old moveset, he’ll do the big boot combination but the switching of the cams makes it impossible to see how clear he hits it. Really, there’s something pretty sad to watch already. There’s a complete lack of intensity and dynamics and it’s like the crowd knows it, as they really only wake up after the first chokeslam/F5 kick outs, as if spamming finishers is what they were waiting for. Then there’s this really awkward transition into Hell’s Gate, easily the worst ever, as it almost seems Lesnar was waiting a bit longer to walk toward Taker as he saw the guy was totally gassed, so in the end it’s almost like he’s giving him his arm, there’s no sense of struggle, no snap whatsoever. And as he’s lifting Taker to drop him down, he’s not displaying incredible power either, Triple H was about as impressive doing it. Plus they actually repeat the spot, only even much sloppier as the hold is just pathetically applied. This match is now officially the crappiest shoot-style match ever, with Lesnar himself doing his armlock reversed by Taker and Tamura vs Khosaka it isn’t at all... Meanwhile, Heyman is about as comedic as Paul Bearer ever was, doing these cartoony, oversell facials. Taker is soooo gassed and out of it at this point, no wonder he has no recollection of any of this, he actually looks like a zombie now. And it gets sadder as he goes for Old-School and very tentatively walks two footsteps on the rope as if he’s afraid and then Lesnar just grabs him on his shoulders for the second F5 and second kick-out-of-finisher, which is the only thing that really works (Lesnar’s selling of it is quite good). The match really lacks any sort of real intensity and keeps on plodding around until they do the Last Ride trope and it’s like the worst Last Ride ever, Taker looks totally washed out, really. Lesnar really grabs Taker’s body, as he should for his own sake, for the Tombstone and it’s a kick out that everyone expects after five straight years of everybody kicking out of it. So yeah, the crowd’s reactions by this time are much bigger but still not nearly as big as what you’d expect. There’s definite a sense of fatigue, of not being into it. When Taker goes for another Tombstone and it gets reversed into a third F5, it’s almost like « business as usual » and we’re expecting yet another kick-out because the finish as to be something more special, but nope. It *is* the finish. There was actually a buzz in the crowd which I had totally forgotten. Then the buzz kinda dies and we get that sidération feeling, but you still got the sense no one expected this to happen *there*, with *this* spot. The announcement gets mild boos, some « bullshit » chants too. It’s an odd feeling but watching Taker in this match, it does looks like a mercy killing. In a way, it’s poetic justice as Taker is « Human After All », the Myth has vanished. But seeing Taker getting old IRL and not being his old self was legit sad. The fact Lesnar really gained nothing out of it and the plan was to put over Roman Reigns (as if you could transfer the aura of Taker to Reigns like this was just a mathematic operation, which is a ridiculous idea, and I’m not even talking about how tone death the Reigns push was then) makes the whole thing rather hollow, which is the feeling at the end. The match wasn’t good, the finish kinda fell flat, Taker looked like he should have retired two years before. I can’t say it did not work at all as the ending stretch was « ok », but I can’t say this worked well either, not for the crowd, not from a booking standpoint, and certainly not from a quality standpoint. Post-match was nice with the crowd thanking Taker. Felt like the end. It should have been, because it’s only gonna get worst and more sad from there. 12-1-9