El-P

I like that question. Because it does certainly apply to the in-ring stuff in term of the styles they are working. Which is why for instance, although the Shawn vs Taker matches at Mania weren't my favorite style at all, what they did absolutely worked wonders in this context and absolutely reached greatness status to me, although I liked the Batista & Edge matches better. From then of course, you have to try and grasp who did what that made it so great to you, and like you said before it's easier to judge a match than a worker...

But you don't ignore you are. The fact you end your post by underlining that "oh, the pillar stuff isn't gonna be fun" absolutely puts the focus on this very point. Basically you begin your post with this point and you conclude your post with the same point. Which is why I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt... As far as me fucking off, well, it's not like we're gonna debate since we're probably on polar opposites considering the approach, he doesn't have to worry about his safe space. That is a totally different thing since it also involves stuff like "How many hours of pro-wrestling are you willing to watch ?", which is the kind of gatekeeping stuff that had people ran away with fear the last time (and still may prevent some people to take part in this because they will feel they "haven't watched enough"). But no, my point was about announcing that you're going into this with a pre-conceived idea of watching stuff to "shove down" names. Again, WHY BOTHER ? I'd rather watch stuff that I will enjoy and maybe shoot up names, without preconceived ideas. As far as getting a whole picture, that's totally up to debate for several reasons, first you get the old peak vs longevity duality (and I'm not sure which one is more valid to me, I honestly understand both). And then like I said, unless you spend you life watching pro-wrestling, you're not gonna get the full picture for every name. And is it really necessary ? I honestly don't think so (so I guess I'm more of a peak guy in a way ?), because the way I see things, the brillance of one moment can be more important to someone than being really consistent for a long time. Or even having peaks at different times or different styles can seem more important. There's so many way to approach how you'd want to compare. And that is, I'm not even sure I'm comfortable "comparing" and even less "rating", although I'm sure I can basically get to the point of having a satisfactory "top 20" names of the greatness wrestlers ever to me. But I'm thinking the criterias can't be rigid, neither in term of styles neither in term of how I'll look at what is the most important. To me it will depend of what I get from each workers. Probably some will get high more because of the consistency over a long period, and some will get high because of an incredible peak. And also, and that's not a nice things to say I know, but having watched more than everybody else doesn't mean you understand better, like, at all. You can have watched pro-wrestling for 30 years and have some of the worst takes ever (yeah, you can apply that to me if you want ). Which is why the gates should be open to different kind of voters indeed.

You're just ignoring my point. The idea of going into this thing with a pre-determined idea that you've got to "shove down" some name is ridiculous and makes the thing pointless.

So you're gonna watch the AJPWNOAH stuff with the pre-determined idea that you're gonna "shove down" the pillars except Taue. Why even bother watching then ? This kind of approach is such a turn-off to me. Gives me the urge to make my list already, 99% japanese women wrestlers + Raven at N°1, for the fuck of it, really.

Funny, I never thought the former design was all that great (that goes for the IC belt too). It's nowhere near as bad as the infamous "crown" belt. And really, new belt haters is not what NJPW should worry about. They have drawn flies at Korakuen Hall and are presenting a totally subpar card for 4/4. The main event should be awesome. The rest of the card is pretty much nothing (yeah, the junior heavyweight tag team match should be good but nothing special and really redondant by now). And they have two stadium shows coming, which is complete insanity. Sure, the pandemic has hit them hard, but maybe just maybe one year of awful EVIL bullshit and now Great O-Khan push, with a super stale undercard, is finally biting them in the ass. Okada hurting as he is means he can't be shot back in the title picture for now. They sure need a shot in the arm from *somewhere*...

Hey, Diana looking good ! DBS Jr. wanted to return to WWE apparently, I wonder if this will lead to something for him. Considering his political views, he would be at home. Is that her sister ? Because she looks exactly like him. Waltman sporting every other guy's beard & hairstyle is kinda funny. Ohhhh, conformism....

Hey Titus, to honor you for hosting Mania with the racist guy, we'll give you the award named after the homophobic guy.

I don't hate it at all. I kinda like the Decepticon-like shape actually.

That Riddle spot really needed the infamous "We're live pal" from JR...

Except the best guy here is the announcer. Don't get me wrong, the match is good (very fun, but nothing special, really), but the live announcer whom the crowd can hear is absolutely directing the traffic in term of making this crowd care about two guys they probably have never seen (the Japan Expo is a big convention about anime, cosplay, J-pop and the likes). He's Christophe Agius, the WWE French announcer for two decades now and he's *awesome*. He can make chicken salad out of chicken shit any day (not that he had to here because it was obviously a very good match) as demonstrated by the years I've went through watching WWE PPV's without wanting to cut my wrist open by the sheer virtue of this guy's announcing (teaming with his usual partner Philippe Chéreau, they have the greatest chemistry ever). The crowd reacts to the work, yes, but they do also react big time to Agius voice and super dynamic live announcing. I'm not convinced the match would get half the reaction without Agius here. Basically I watch this match and although it's good, the one thing that just hits me in the face is the greatness of Agius. Fun fact, during the big wave of Cenamania, my nephews were watching WWE and they ended up going to a show while WWE was touring France. And they were kinda disappointed by the show, one reason being : it was missing the announcing.

I I like the idea of Lesnar, I can't stand the Lesnar matches of the last few years. Blame Heyman.

I would agree with this yes. I'd rather watch IMPACT than WWE, although I know there are much better matches in WWE on a regular basis, because IMPACT is fun to watch for me whereas WWE is a complete chore. But what I love the most in AEW is the prospect of legit *great* matches, as for NJPW.

I'm not part of the Charlotte hate train, so I expected something really really bad. Or Lesnar

Care to elaborate ?

Watch some GG Allin (from which he got his name) footage and get back to me later.

Agreed. But the perception of "charisma" still is something that can be put to debate (not even going into sociology and Bourdieu on your asses ). To me Triple H is a guy with no charisma whatsoever for instance. I mean, none whatsoever. By sheer virtue of being pushed at the top for so long, given insane productions (that damn entrance, Motörhead and such) for totally *other* reasons (body, politics, network, son-in-law), he's getting that perception from the faithful WWE audience.

I would say it's actually the opposite, match quality has never mattered more. Even in a traditionally non-match-quality environment like WWE, in today's landscape, if you really suck at pro-wrestling or even if you're really mediocre, you don't stand a chance. I may not agree with what WWE thinks a great match is, but it's obvious a guy like Sid would have zero chance of getting over today, because the audience and the office who see through him and he could never deliver what they think a great match is. Sure, they'll still push Karrion Kross for other reasons and give body and big guys much more opportunity because they are still stuck in the past somewhat, but whether they get over with the actual audience is another thing altogether. I mean, Daniel Bryan got injected into the main event at Mania for a reason.

Loving that quote.

The issue is that charisma is a very vague notion. Most people raised on 00's WWE probably consider Randy Orton to be super charismatic. I consider him a black hole who suck the interest of everything he's involved in. You obviously don't care too much for Kenny Omega's oddball character. I saw Japanese women cry in the audience when he won the title from Okada. I find Hulk Hogan to be a complete clown that should probably not appeal to anyone past 8 years old. It took forever to me to "get" Riki Choshu.

Totally agree. And I will add that yes, weekly TV storytelling has been heavily romanticized. I'm an old ECW fan, LU has been my favorite program in years and actually got me back into current pro-wrestling, but pretending that they were paragon of great stories with only logical development and totally coherent week-to-week stuff is really looking back with glass colored roses. There were tons of stupid shit that went nowhere both in ECW (speaking peak ECW, as past 98 is really nothing to brag about in term of weekly TV) and LU, tons of hot-shotting, tons of random stuff that was actually cool because the matches were just cool to watch. I won't even go back to the old territory TV because I went on and on and on for years about how this was way overrated and watched with total nostalgia/rose-colored glasses (not that it wasn't great at times and depending on the promotion). The same thing happened on the better years of Nitro. And back then, I remember people have *fun* with all the kinda random good stuff which went nowhere but was just, you know, fun pro-wrestling shit.

That went away with the neck tattoo. And now the real TV show. You ain't cool anymore man.

Kenny Omega can be a good babyface (the stuff with Ibushi). But he's a natural heel. The apex is Japan came from being the hottest heel that at one point, you gotta respect because he's so good. Currently, he's like one of the most amazing douchebag. Him & Callis are now just untouchable (not to mention the matches, which he delivers at a ridiculous rates including on weekly TV now, as shown by the great match against Sydal).

Watching the second half of Great Voyage in Fukuoka. Well, those NOAH big shows seem so fresh compared to the current (for the last two years I'd say) NJPW stuff. The fact you don't get any stupid stuf like the americanized bullshit of the Bullet Club nor mediocre gaijins nor stupid gimmick is soooo refreshing indeed. And when you look at some of the veterans there like Marufuji, Shiozaki, Nakajima (yes, a young veteran considering how young he started), there's some severely overlooked main event level talent that still deliver some great stuff (Marufuji ruled when he did the G1 a few years ago). And I admit, I'm loving the Mutoh stuff (no, the match wasn't as good as the Shiozaki one, but pulling out a top rope frankensteiner at 58 is Terry Funk like shit and it's awesome). Maybe I should check out current AJPW too...

I mean, I agree, like I said with your first post. Worked out well for them indeed, that was understood. But it's always good to remind ourselves where and from whom they got part of those huge sum of money the last few years.

Tony & Britt have had this bizarre relationships for ever now, it's an established fact in the AEW lore. I mean, Alvarez pretty much gave all the good arguments there. The main one being : Britt is supposed to be the actual star of the division. I'd be curious to see how many times Mean Gene got Flair on the ramp on Nitro despite him having lost his big match the previous week. And yes, we're in the days in pro-wrestling where you applaud the performance "in kayfabe", the fact matches are great is part of the lore too. Like it or not, that's the way it is. And Britt did get booed and did talk down to them for not appreciating her enough, so, there was heel work there. I dunno, that strikes me at nitpicking. I'll listen to what he said about Cody & QT though, as I think I may agree with him on that a lot more.