El-P

FTR, I loved fire spitting Steamboat. Beats a guy who shows up with a baby. Do people ever remember that Steamboat was in the WWF for a cup of coffee in 91 ? It's actually the very first time I saw Steamboat.

Honestly Sable was getting white hot before WWF really exploded. By early 98 she was already receiving ridiculous pops from the crowd. I haven't watched Mania XIV in eons, but I would not be surprised if she got the second of third biggest pop of the night. I mean, honestly Goldust & Marlena were a much bigger act than Molly ever was so you can argue Terri Runnels was a much bigger star too. I doubt Dustin is getting anytime soon though... But it's nothing against Molly, really, I was always a fan, it's just that, as always, it comes off really random, especially as a first inductee of the year. Reeks of "Hey look, we announce a female first !". Maybe they can induct Lesnar & Sable the same year. Marc Mero could do the induction speach.

This thread is endlessly fascinating and the best thread on PWO. Looking forward to the follow-ups whenever you do them.

Super classy. And what if she had more dicks in her than a urinal at MSG ? None of anyone's fucking business and that would not make her or anyone male or female any less of a dignified human being. Yeah, slut-shaming alert. As far as not seeing her on a pro-wrestling show, yeah, she's only improved by leaps and bounds over the last year and a half and I really wish she would get more focus on her as a performer than being a valet for Marc Me Kip Sabian.

Yes, the fact Cornette has so many braindead followers turns his shit into online bullying, pretty much, so it's hard to "just ignore it" when a bunch of low-lives are calling your friend a slut because an old fossil is boo-boo because he doesn't like Kenny Omega and has to lash out, preferably using misogynic/homophobic and sometime even racist terms.

For the people who want AEW to be successful, well, rejoice because they already are. There's no doom & gloom in AEW's future. Imagine social media during the Monday Night Wars. It would have been brutal. The echo-chamber effect of social media is making everything worse, but you gotta admit the negativity about AEW comes from a crowd of haters who either just won't admit than anything current or forward looking can be good or successful ever (the Cornette crowd) and people who consider that anything un-WWE is worthless. The über-tribalism really is more into the negative aspect of things. To sometime ridiculous degree that has absolutely no connection whatsoever with reality, as showed by the way NWA Powerr & Dark shared a large part of their audience (so the comments about everything modern sucking and thank god NWA was back to do real wrestling in the Youtube comments weren't meaning anything since a lot of people would watch both NWA & AEW on Youtube that day). Everything is polarized, but when you see AEW, IMPACT, NWA, NJPW and whatever joshi promotion Itoh and Ryo come from working cross promotion stuff and people getting excited about it (I know I am), it also means there's this thirst for someone bigger than just supporting one promotion but rather having fun with the entire pro-wrestling landscape, because it opens so much more. And you can only get that outside of WWE.

Not really. I quote, I erase the part of the quote that I don't reply to. Then I quote again and do the same thing. Super easy. Please don't. Yes ? Who ? What ? WHAT ? quote Ok Do what ? To whom ? Suspense is riveting... Ok let's go !

I don't have a Twitter account.

Molly was a good worker at a time there was barely any in the women's division. And that's it. She was an undercard act. One of her most infamous angle was being made fun of because she was "fat". Anyway, it's not like the WWE HOF means anything. Still, I truly wonder why Sable isn't in it yet. She really was the top 2 star of the Attitude Era, all joking aside, for a moment. It's funny, her case is something I have reconsidered in the lights of Conrad's podcasts and prism of everyday misogyny. We're absolutely dealing with a case of slut-shaming I beliebe with her (as was the case with Chyna), because all she did was basically show her body (although she did work a few matches here and there despite never been trained). The super negative perception she has had for years kinda changes a bit when you realize she was not a performer at all, was thrown under the lights and in a matter of a few months became a legit draw in the pro-wrestling industry, no matter the reason. Add to the fact she apparently was the shy, loner kind (you don't marry Brock Lesnar if you're a socialite, I don't think), like guys like Luger were, and that's a recipe for disaster in term of working in such a toxic masculine environment. We hear all the time about "what gets over gets over, what draws draws", well, she got over and she drew people. Because she showed skin ? Sure. Was she a good performer otherwise ? Not really, although she did look really good at Mania XIV while never have worked one match in her life, so maybe in another context she could have become a decent worker, who knows ? She wasn't a good promo either. In other words, Karen Jarrett she was not. The fact remains she's probably the only real star of the Attitude Era who has not been inducted yet.

Well, me too obviously ! Well, Blanchard was a really good promo. The other two, nope, indeed. There's probably something to the fact great workers did not need to be great promos if you had a guy on the other side who could carry the load. Plus the manager culture was much more prevalent for the heels (although that doesn't mean the babyfaces were always good promos anyway, I mean, the fucking Von Erichs...) Even General Takada in Hustle ? Damn. We aren't gonna argue again about Takada for the GWE 2026, are we ? I mean, I'll probably not re-watch Takada matches at this point anyway, his case (and greatness) is pretty much an established thing as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, since Molly Holly in the WWE HOF is basically a joke (really now, Molly Holly ? She sure wasn't a top 5 star during the Attitude Era like You Know Who) but they need to induct women because Stephy invented feminism, why hasn't Sable been inducted yet ? Because she certainly was a Top 2 star during the Attitude Era for a while. And that's legit, no one moved numbers and merchandise like her, she was only second to Austin.

I was always a heel fan, so when the babyface is uncool, it's just a death spot for me to be in. Of course he was, in the ring working.

Well, Meltz mentioned that Vince basically saw nothing in Andrade, so maybe there's something to this. Fuck, now I want La Sombra & Thea Trinidad to show up in AEW.

Honestly, the balance of "awesome" and "problematic" weighs so much toward the former to me that I can totally bear with the later. No pro-wrestling promotion is gonna be perfect. I loved Lucha Underground, but I still thought some of it sucked. Ditto ECW. Ditto current IMPACT (to a lesser extent, apart from the AEW deal, they are clearly not as fun as they were in 2019/early 00)

Awww, come on, like it's anything new. I was never impressed that much during Roman's many pushes of terror when it happened. Not that I thought he was bad, but certainly nothing special to me. Too "WWE main event style" patterned. The Superman Punch spamming annoyed me to no end. He seems to have hit his stride lately as a heel, good for him. That does not kept me from putting him over in that Taker match though.

That for instance is something I did not get. I'm all for non-commentary cinematic matches like AJ vs Taker. I'm all for commentary on stuff like the Stadium Stampede. But the commentary + music on the street fight felt like a miscalculation. Considering how it was shot and produced, this pretty much asked for non-commentary. But if you are doing commentary (which still strikes me as a bit odd considering how cinematic it was), the music just doesn't belong then.

I dunno about the public perception, but as you know I'm not a Roman fan and as I was watching this match live, I knew Roman was the one saving it from disaster. Why am I not surprised you replied to that one first bubba ?

Jumbo / Hansen. Two of the best ever. In the same context. Never clicked.

Pretty much makes a great guideline. N°6 is give or take, but I would not be pissed off at all by that result either.

Wouldn't it be fair to say it was actually Micheals ? That would make a fun game.

WrestleMania 33 (2017) – Undertaker vs Roman Reigns This was the mercy killing, in more ways than one. It was also the match that should have followed the Brock Lesnar one, when Taker was in much better shape than he is there, as he truly comes off old and broken down. That actually plays into the work and the amazing post-match which really renews with the Mythical quality of the character (as opposed to the Brock post-match which turned him into a mere mortal), but the match itself would have been much better if Taker had been in the same shape he was two years before. If there’s a match to show to display Roman Reigns qualities as a worker, it’s this one, as he’s gonna work around Taker’s limitations with great care, despite being absolutely shit on by the audience although in that case, it’s less damaging for him as he’s literally putting Taker out to pasture, which can only be a heel posture. Anyway, this is really the last true Mania match for Taker, with a big match feel that hasn’t been felt since the Brock one, and honestly judging by the crowd reaction, hasn’t been felt since the Triple H ones. Taker has grown back his hair long, to get the old-school look. Well, it’s more the "look old" now, really. Speaking of Old-School, I believe it’s the very first time there’s not even a tease of it (hey, maybe since the Snuka match !), if anything else it truly shows it’s the end. Snake Eyes/Big Boot really is the only true classic medium spot he does, as Roman is busy pinballing for him and doing what Taker can’t do anymore : be quick and fast and snappy. Not for to long though because Taker can’t follow up, so there’s this huge spot outside with Roman spearing Taker through a table, from there it allows Taker do basically be half-dead, which he was (and I don’t mean the early zombie gimmick either). They’ll soon transition into what is now a given, Roman kicking out of the Tombstone. Hearing the announcers acting shocked is the most ridiculous thing ever, it’s only been the 8th consecutive year now. A straight Tombstone is not a finisher, hasn’t been forever now. So, that part is quite the ridiculous WWE pseudo-nearfall and drama, as is Taker kicking out the of first spear. Like, doh ! Roman beating on Taker, who looks gassed as all hell, ends up on the corner for the good old trope of the Last Ride set-up (really Roman ? REALLY ?), for a powerbomb with no power, Taker puts everything he has left to lift Roman a bit higher than the last few years and basically lets him fall... Kinda sad. This is gonna turn into some re-enactment of the first Triple H match (they are working the same No Holds Barred gimmick BTW), as smokes and mirrors are a requisite at this stage, with Roman beating Taker with the chair and telling him to stay down. This is goint into a chokeslam onto the chair for an actual credible nearfall, that one did work. A Tombstone reversal is tried and it’s a very visible failure as they try twice and fumbles down, Roman eventually just does a Superman Punch to save the day. It also kinda depresses the crowd audibly. The *real* pathetic state of Taker at this point (there’s another instance where he’s totally out of place for the Superman Punches and Roman has to work around him, literally) plays into the match, as it is the story of a mercy killing, Taker doing the Michaels spot of grabbing Roman’s legs in a nice callback. Time to kick out of another spear and for Roman to sell the drama, which he does more than well honestly. This dynamic works much better than the Brock match honestly, as the inevitable finish actually was very well built. So there, Taker has lost, and he has visibly lost it. The post-match is brilliant though, both the visual of Roman looking back toward the ring with the huge Mania setup enlightened by giant fireworks and of course Taker as an almost a spectral figure in full gear, taking off his gloves, folding his leather coat and taking off his hat for the very last time (not!), to the genuine emotion of the crowd, and then slowly leaving the scene and being sucked into the ground in the middle of the giant ramp. Just a perfect ending for the character after a match which, despite its shortcomings (Taker being visibly washed up and the kinda ridiculous forced drama induced by the first obligatory kick-out-of-finishers sequence, which at this point was no more than another trope and transition bit toward a bigger finish) worked pretty well, mostly (entirely ?) thanks to Roman’s performance. Yeah, this match should have followed the loss to Brock for a last act, or at the very least followed a cool post-loss match with a huge star like, say, John Cena. But of course, we did not get that now, did we ? 13-1-11

But in both those cases, no one remembers the matches. I mean, I admit I'm not the biggest 80's WWF fan and my favorite Steamboat period is also 90's WCW.

The Ric Flair feud ? Come on now. He was the uncoolest guy ever with his wife and baby dressed as a dragon. Fucking hell. Agreed (although my babyface MVP would be Dustin). But I for one can't remember any promo nor angle, just a bunch of great matches. I don't see how this is even a negative either, I made the remark in a purely descriptive way. And I do agree he was never booked in many super memorable angles... maybe part of it because he did not need to. Because he could have great matches. That's basically why Flair booked him to have his redux feud with in 94.

BTW, no one talked about how Darby Allin vs Scorpio Sky was basically Bret vs Backlund on Superstars in 94. A face vs face technical match with an out of nowhere (and out of frustration) attack after the technical finish, complete with Scorpio trying to hurt Darby while in the hold, then looking at his hands in disbelief, then liking what he saw... I can't believe no one has mentioned it thus far !

Oh yeah, totally agree about Adrian Street. That was the whole trick about Goldust too to an extent. Damn, Goldust could have been so much more than he ended up being with a much more progressive mind (speaking about Vince here, not Dustin) behind the gimmick (and a different audience than the 1996 one).