El-P

I've been watching some of his New Japan stuff lately, and you know, although I always thought Tiger Mask was overrated, he's just not the terrible worker he's been accused of being a few years ago. Yeah, he was sloppy at times. Yeah, some of his matches were a mess (the Dynamite match with all the restarts was kinda ugly). But no, he just wasn't doing the exact same things luchadors around him were doing. That's just not the truth. He was quicker, more explosive and more spectacular, that is, when he didn't fuck up his spots. He was also part of some really good matches, both against Dynamite and Kobayashi, and some cool tag stuff too. He had a wicked knee drop. And despite not being a vey good worker overall (let's not kid ourselves), what he brought to the game was enough to build some very good matches around that. And there's no denying his influence on guys like Liger, Sasuke and even Rey Mysterio (not to mention the Eddielenko matches which are the model for every "workrate indy wankfest" and yes, that is a negative in my book). He was much better suited for shoot-style, to which he added some of his cool indiosyncrasies, his first UWF stint was full of really good matches (okay, he also had some really good opponents to work with). Overall, not nearly as good as he was pimped to be, but not nearly as bad as he was accused to be either.

If I had keep up with joshi, Yoshiko Tamura would probably end up on mine. She was a terrific litle worker. I also doubt anyone remembers The Bloody these days. Naomi Kato was awesome. (those opinions dates from 2002)

Since we're having fun with moral issues and such, introducing (no pun intended) : Art Barr.

Art Barr as The Juicer in WCW. Yeah. A cartoon character aimed at kids played by a guy who raped a 19 year old girl. There's no business like show business.

So, there's a censorship on Muraco… okay... Tiger Mask/Super Tiger/Satoru Sayama.

I had SM fantasies involving Bison Kimura. (I didn't write that)

Don't know about that one. Me want dirt. What's the story ? And yeah, Bull is the coolest. Add to the fact she lost tons of weight and became a MILF golfer. What's not to love about her ? (I'm a big time Aja fan, but I do think Bull was better overall)

Agreed. I believe he made my top 10 back then, and he would never make it today. Not sure at all he'd make my top 20. And that has nothing to do with the murders nor "workrate guilt".

Bull would probably make you bleed until you pass out for this.

Not a great worker, but man, there was something sexy as hell in Kimura, as far as a bloodthirsty beast goes. I loved that girl. Really underrated brawler.

I don't have a list in mind, I haven't watched joshi since 2003 or so. But damn, those matches with Aja Kong in 91/92 and with Kyoko Inoue in 95 were just terrific. Bull was an amazing worker.

I know the canons of beauty were a bit different back then. Still, I have no idea how this guy was ever half of a blowjob tag team. No idea at all. Solid worker. But when you got Ricky Morton at your side… Well… Not as good as Bobby Fulton. Much better than Steve Keirn (not hard).

Yep. I mean, let's not put the murder of good wrestling on the back of Benoit too, really. When going through WCW during the mid to late 90's, two guys were clearly the best workers in the company : Benoit and Rey. Actually, you say Angle and Benoit got the worst out of each other, and that is very true, but the WWE as a whole got the worst out of Benoit (in many ways). He was a much more diverse and subtle worker before the 00's. In WWE he got roided like never before (yes, he was roided in NJ before, but never to those extents), and got into stupid excess like the systematic rolling germans (which he only began during his very late WCW work I believe, possibly under the first Russo regime) and stuff like the Angle spotfus. Benoit in 1996 was a pure joy to watch. Then again, when watching early 90's New Japan 13 years ago, I came to the realization that I enjoyed Riki Choshu vs Hashimoto a lot more than Jushin Liger vs Pegasus Kid. And that was way before any kind of post-Benoit workrate guilt, so it's not like I'm advocating Benoit as the perfect worker either. Want to blame someone for the current WWE style ? I think Angle would be a perfect culprit actually. And since he was pimped as an überworker by both the reviewers (Meltz included) and all his peers who just came at the idea of a gold medalist, his way of working set the tone for the decade to come.

I already made myself clear during the whole Invader craze around here. Mosy of us grew up with Benoit, and even if we never watch another match of his, ever, it doesn't change the fact everyone knows how good he was. No point in trying to troll me back into this argument. I first and foremost replied to the interesting point made by Matt here, which has more to do with working in general than Benoit in particular, which is why I added my two cents about him too.

When you have to explain a joke, it becomes less funny. Your gif is awesome though, I didn't remember that one. Fucking Liger.

The worst martial-art strikes this side of Stan Lane. Not very good, but had a coolness factor to him, mostly because he worked like an asshole.

Oh yeah. That's how he beat El Matador at Mania 8. Mr. WrestleMania's first step.

Well, if you look at their track record : _Shawn Michaels : DX leader (contributed to get WWF hot again along Austin) and "Mr. WrestleMania" (ok, that's made up). _Hall & Nash : 2/3rd of the nWo, the biggest box-office act of the 90's before Austin and the one who ignited the golden years of the MNW. _Waltman was along for the nWo & DX rides when they were at their respective hottest. _Triple H : married the boss daughter and is the futur CEO of the WWE. _Justin Credible : greatest ECW champ ever. Really, that's one hell of a track record, politically speaking. I won't watch the Kilq stuff though. I'm already nauseous just thinking about it.

I loved Mantaur. Sorry, this isn't the confession thread, but there you go. PN News' cousin, of all people. Even more "don't blink an eye" stint of the same guy : when he played Goldust's bodygard, in full Bruiser Mastino mode, at a IYH where Goldust was supposed to face the Warrior.

The Rock was the prototype (pun intended) for the WWE corporate babyface ace that is John Cena. Rock has a bunch of shitty Attitude era main events, which penalize him. Cena has a bunch of shitty self-conscious epics which doesn't penalize him because those matches are still revered. I actually enjoy Cena to a degree (he's the perfect guy for what WWE wanted for a main event guy), but still, Cena is awkward, goofy, has a bunch of horrible looking shit to his repertoire, and works a style I don't care at all for. So yeah, The Rock in a landslide.

As absurd as it may sound, I think this is pretty interesting criticism here. And I would agree actually. That's why Jerry Lynn, for instance, got the best out of RVD, because he seemed to knew what would RVD bring to the table (big spots, intricate sequences) and worked to his strenghts instead of forcing something that was gonna be lost anyway. I haven't seen that match, so I can't really judge, but the criticism, on paper, sounds valid to me. I think there's something that could be said about Flair also on that matter (in a different way though), but I'm not quite qure how to express it right now. Anyway. Rewatching WCW, it's obvious Benoit was a great wrestler, there's no way he shouldn't be very high on the final list. Of course he won't, for reasons which have no relation to pro-wrestling.

There's also the match against Wrath & Mortis at Fall Brawl 97.

Just call them wrestlers.

(Nevermind. Was just ranting about how the "false finishes" in WWE don't work for me at all.)

Thanks for the link, that's pretty terrific (although I enjoy my UWF without commentary better). I remember watching a few episodes back in the late 90's.