El-P

I'm not gonna dive into a long Demo argument because of lack of time, will and interest about the topic to be honest, although Matt's post is very interesting. Just wanted to point out this : I couldn't agree more. The "he plays his role well" argument as a mark of greatness is something that has bothered me for years, most notably since the absurd Mark Henry pimping years ago. Being competent at what you're supposed to do doesn't mean you're a great wrestler. You're good at what you're supposed to do, well, that's the damn minimum you should deliver. If you don't "play your role well", you shouldn't even be employed. Greatness is just another matter entirely. I said it, I thought the Demos were a decent team. They played their role well. Doesn't mean that's an act I find particulary compelling nor very entertaining to watch. Back to tag team wrestling and P-G13.

Agreed, and well put. Watching a Demos match, I don't by them as being those terrific brawlers who destroy opponents. They don't project anything violent in their matches, because the moves they use just suck and are boring. Once in a while you get some good stuff because it's freaking Bill Eadie under the hood, but still, most of the time, Demos on offense put me to sleep if they don't have a really quality team against them, which they had a lot thanks to the deep talent pool in tag teams in the WWF at that time.

The issue with the Steiners is that they just weren't anything special as a team. Yeah, they threw big bombs, which was cool. And that's it. The infamous Steiner vs Sasaki & Hase match at the Tokyo Dome is one of the most overrated match ever. For someone watching the entire NJ TV form that year, this mtach just isn't anything special at all. A bunch of big spots for no reasons basically, a fun sprints with bombs left and left. The infamous Steiners vs Luger & Sting from GAB, same stuff. Actually, Hase & Sasaki vs Rick Steiner & Scott Norton a few months later was much better because of the new dynamic of the match with a monster like Norton, which allowed them to actually tell a more dramatic story instead of just throwing spots left and right. Steiner vs Nasty Boys = Steiner throwing Nasty Boys around, again, nothing special. I can't think of a great Steiner match. I can think of plenty fun Steiner matches which were all the same thing, a collection of spots. The Steiner were the new Road Warriors, but I don't think they ever had the matches the RW had in Crockett or AJ. Way overrated as a team. And like Dylan said, they did very few actual teamwork. I can probably accept the fact PG-13 were a better team than the Steiners without much problem.

I agree they should have done it eventually at a IYH PPV, but Vader should have killed a JTTS at WM. I remember how they built Ludvig Borga at SummerSlam 93 by having him kill Marty Jannetty. Jannetty made him look like a god. Vader should have killed a guy who could make him look huge and brutal, like Bob Holly, instead of feuding with a fat guy from the get-go. Of course, him being thrown into a random 6 man in which he had to sell for old Jake Roberts and bump for Ahmed Johnson made things even worse. Way to make him non-special already. What was the reason for turning it into a 6 man ? Was that because Yoko's health was getting bad (getting way too fat for his own good) at this point ?

Vader bumped huge too. Hell, Vader bumped more than any fat guy, ever. Vader had too things not working for him in WWF : 1/ big WCW star and not Vince's creation. Bad. 2/ not working the lighter WWF style, more suited with the stiffer southern or japanese stye. Bad. Add the Klic influence, Taker bitching, Michaels wanting to work with Sid instead, and Vader was doomed from the get-go. First feud was Yokozuna, a bigger guy than he was. He sold for Gorilla Mansoon's chops. Just awful booking from the get-go. Vader never had a chance in WWF.

The "childhood memories" is really the worst current argument. I rather just be called an idiot than have my argument dismissed with mind reading bullshit. I was not refering to you per say, nor anyone on that thread actually, but since you brought it up I was just giving my own perspective about why the Demos are still universally loved by a large portion of the wrestling fans, that's all. Because I can't wrap my head about what makes them even a *good* team. To me they are a RW rip-off composed of two workers who were better under every other incarnations. I don't think the Demos sucked, I don't think they wre a particulary good team either. I went through the thread Matt D linked to, I have seen most of these matcehs already, and none struck me as particulary good exemple of Demolition being a great team. Sorry.

Not wanting to derail things, but I fail to see how Demolition was even a *good* team. Was Bill Eadie a good worker ? Yes. Was Barry Darsow a decent worker ? Yes. But the Demolition gimmick which forced them to do (sorry if I have to use the godforsaken "moves" arguments) shitty punches and double hammer on the back limited them a lot. Darsow was better as a Russian, Eadie was a lot better as the Masked Superstars. To me the Demolition love is strictly a product of childhood memories, I would take pretty much any other WWF 80's team that doesn't involve Volkoff, Andre or Jim Powers over them. Yes, they had a few good matches with great team like the Rockers and really good team like the Hart Foundation. Big deal.

Vader had a perfectly good career in Japan after the WWF debacle. Main event matches, big titles. Didn't fall from grace at all.

I thought about Yatsu too. He was still decent in AJ in the last years though, but then vanished after he left. Yatsu was so great at one point.

Waiting for Dan to tell us how much Los Gringos Locos sucked. But yeah, most people, including me, haven't seen much of LGL. BTW, I know Lucha is mainly trio based, but I guess there are tons of tag teams still who could, well, give PG13 a hard time, no ?

PG-13, top 20 tag team of all time. Jamie Ice and Wolfie D, top 20 indy wrestlers in 2011. But seriously, I'm actually enjoying this thread a lot. Keep on coming and argue about the merits of tag teams. From the joshi ranks : Marine Wolves, Crush Gals, Toyota & Yamada, LCO, Oz & Kansai, Oz & Cuty, HamaKINO, Juming Bomb Angels... there are more.

Yep. She was on a TNA PPV the other week, and now... this ? And then gone. Yep, I never understood why Bundy did nothing nowhere after WM II.

Andy will probably never amount to anything in WWE anyway, let's be honest. So, bump for a slap from Mr. MacMahon and take a stunner will probably end up being his most famous moments in the company.

Pretty much. This was the first weekly WWE program I have followed since I stopped watching RAW in the summer of 1999.

Ah ah, they totally buried Luke just to fuck with him. That said, he has nothing to bring to the table. Looks like a miniature Randy Orton. Andy could be your second rate Test. The final moments was so all about nostalgia and so not about Tough Enough it's funny. This show as all bullshit from the get-go, and the final really proved that. Well, at least Austin was great. I would watch another season with more Austin.

No idea why I did this. Plus I felt something wasn't right when I typed it. Blame my melted brain.

Enjoying your posts so far. But really, if Choshu & Yatsu, Jumbo & Taue, Kawada & Taue or Misawa & Kobashi don't qualify as real team, then nothing does. Agreed on Doc & Gordy being overrated, especially their work in the States, which wasn't anything special. And in Japan it was really the great Gordy with the average (at this point) Doc. Agreed on the Bulldogs being overrated because of the impact they made back then which is remembered fondly. Then again, so is Bruiser Brody. I think the Freebird unit of Hayes and Garvin is pretty underrated. That said, I'm soon going to plunge into NWA/WCW Saturday Nights, so maybe I'll revise my judgement on them soon. How would you compare PJ13 to some old school Southern team like the Pretty Young Things or the Dirty White Boys ?

SMW and USWA are probably the last lost promotions of the 90's. Not watched, not discussed.

Of course it's not all ga-ga, both were really good mechanical workers, but when I watch a PJ13 match I don't ask for a spotfest or a workrate heavy match, I *want* my Memphis ga-ga. I know I'll get some cool spots thrown in, which is a plus, but really, PJ13 is the apex of Memphis tag westling, and that's a compliment to me. That spot just never gets old. I guess those people like the comedy spots because it's only a part of über workrate matches. In Memphis you don't get the action of the MPro tags, so I can see why they wouldn't dig it.

I don't intend to rehash arguments about a guy who I think mainly suck and was a chore to watch when I did my ECW thing. Certainly in my worst 10 ECW performer list with New Jack, 911, Harris Boys, D-Von Dudley, PE... Well, not as terrible as most of these guys, as he was half fun being thrown around by Bigelow and Awesome, but he was mostly unbearable to me on every level, and if not surrounded by people I cared about, he would have been FF material most of the time. But I like the idea of pimping PJ13, hyperbole or not.

Are they booking the entire company or just the juniors ?

The tricky part is to make an outrageous statement such as "There are barely 20 teams better than PJ13 in pro-wrestling history" instead of a reasonnable statement such as "PG13 was a damn excellent team and it should be time to revisit their body of work". The second statement I totally agree with, they are criminally underrated and were a great team if you like Memphis ga-ga (which I do).

I agree with these being clearly better. I agree those are clearly worse, with the 3 early 00's WWF team (Hardys, Dudleys, E&C) being the most overrated teams in wrestling history. Faces of Fear were a super fun Nitro era team whatever that means. Harlem Heat were just shitty and were happy to have a few good matches here and there. Benoit & Malenko weren't particulary good as a team. That's not even counting the joshi teams. I like PJ13 a lot, but top 20 of all time... It's kinda like Spike Dudley top 10 ECW worker (well, not really, since Spike kinda sucked actually).

Last time I checked (like two years ago), NJ was already really quite good and fun wrestling. I'm not watching now, but I don't doubt it is still good.

I think Luger's SummerSlam "win" hurt him a lot. Yes, he was still a top babyface, but his aura was hurt after he failed once yet celebrated like he had won the title. Made him look liek a goof. And the result is they lost confidence in him, booked the double finish at the Royal Rumble, where it was obvious Bret was more over than him, hence the WM booking. I remember he was supposed to feud with Perfect, which was setting him one year back, but Perfect departed, so he ended up in that terrible feud with teh Million Dollar Corporation, Luger was not a top dog after WM. It's amazing how showing up on Nitro just made him look like a big deal once again. I agree his win on Nitro in 97 was one of the big moments of the year. Luger's got an interesting career, in that he stayed over like hell in WCW despite mostly sucking as a worker in the late 90's and not being always fed with interesting stuff. The pop he gets when he joins the Wolfpack is amazing.