El-P

Maybe, but last time I watched lot of joshi she's one whose stock dropped. Not that she became "bad" in my eyes, not at all, but certainly not as good as I thought she was. And I've never seen her in a great match in which she was the best of the two (or the four). Yamada's stock dropped a lot more. She's a girl I used to think was great, she dropped to "good". And Hotta dropped from "good" to "sucked donkey ass since day one". I know it's not relevant to the conversation, but I like to repeat how much Yumiko Hotta sucks. Back to Toyota, I don't dislike her style, but Kyoko Inoue does it better. So. I wonder what I would think of the infamous 95 match you mention. I loved it when I fist saw it, but it's been like a decade ago.

Thanks for the clarification Dan. Makes sense now. As far as UWF-I being flashy, I agree with Ditch, I don't see it at all. UWF-I was maybe flashy compared to the second UWF or PWFG, but it was still pretty straight forward shoot-style. I agree that Takada was flashy though, but was he flashier than Maeda ? I'm not sure about that. The fact that UWF-I was the biggest thing in Japan for a short time also played a part in the style being popular, it was pretty hard to ignore it. I don't think it was *that* popular though, people were way more in NJ juniors, AJ heavies, joshi and FMW and MPro as far as indies go. I don't remember that many talks of straight UWF-I matches or cards, most of it was the Vader matches and the feud with NJ. As far as RINGS goes, well then I would agree with Dan, RINGS was the least flashy promotion you could get. I can't think of any promotion that was less flashy than RINGS.

I admit I'll never understand how a wrestling style can be "passé" (en français dans le texte). I mean, I understand, but aren't all style dated anyway ? Whose opinion ? The majority in a subculture of a subculture of a subculture's opinion ? Im not being snarky, I just wonder what does "opinion has changed" mean. I know my opinion on some workers has changed. My tastes have evolved. But does that mean it has evolved the same way the majority of a sub of a sub of a sub's opinion has evolved ? I don't think so. So, I don't really get what that sentence means...

He's 61 and she's 21. Not exactly the same thing.

Well, Toyota does murders Michaels, but at this point Michaels just doesn't belong in any "greatest anything" discussion to me, except the "biggest non-jobbing unprofessionnal douchebag" category. But yeah, Dave should have dropped the names Hokuto, Jaguar, Chigusa, Devil, Ozaki, Aja, Bull here instead. But hey, he dropped Kobashi's names instead of Misawa and Kawada. It's not the sama hiatus, but still.

That's where you lose me. Toyota was never even the best woman in her own promotion, at any point of her career. And I like Toyota, always did. Bt when I think "best woman of the 90's", last time I checked, Toyota sure had no shot at it. In the top 10 of the 90's, maybe. I'm not sure but maybe. But the best ? Not a chance.

Unlistenable. Lance Storm really buried Bruce on the following edition of the show.

Yep... Classy indeed...

I admit this kinda my case, not in that I haven't watched anything new, but in that I haven't rewatched any Takada in like 10 years. So I'm speaking based from my memories alone. I've changed opinion and taste about many wrestlers in the last 10 years. If I ever get to rewatch Takada and finds him not holding up to the memories I had from him, I'll have no problem admiting I was wrong. I admit that would be a shocker to me, but I guess it's possible.

You're getting me wrong, I'm an old school puro fan. I'm refering to Anjoh having a bad rep back as early as the late 90's. No one would have pimped him as being anything special back then, and I guess having goofy matches with Fuyuki in NJ didn't helped his case as a shoot-style worker. Getting killed by a Gracie kinda hurt the perception of UWF-I too. So, what I'm learning here is that new fans love Anjoh and think he was as good as Takada. Then again, since new fans don't think Takada was anything special, it brings back to the point of Anjoh not being anything special at all in the grand scheme of things. Interesting. Personally I always enjoyed Anjoh more than he was pimped "back then", he was a great douchebag and a fine worker. His match with Tenryu in WAR was gold. But Anjoh "great shootsyle worker", I have trouble with this notion. Really this talk about shoots-style worker reminds me how much I loved it.

He's not 40 years old anymore. He grew more mature I guess... Well, there's that too I guess. Only thing is that it's a lifelong trend with Lawler. How bizarre to think a man who grows as old as 61 and never was with a 30 or 40 year old woman. I mean, yes, there's something definitely disgraceful somewhere.

Haven't seen enough of early Kohsaka to judge, but at his peak he was clearly one of the best ever, right up there with Han and Tamura. It seems I have missed another rehabilitation, but since when did people like Anjoh ? I always liked him a lot, but he did have a poor rep at one time. I never thought as Yamamoto as being in the same league as Tamura or Khosaka, which is not a knock on him. But I think he got banged up rather quickly too. RINGS has always been very overlooked anyway. Not as much as PWFG, but still never got much attention.

I agree. It was exactly that way for people who showed up on the internet during the Monday Night Wars. First thing I read back then was the Raw/Nitro reviews. Then I stumbled onto Quebrada/DVDVR and so on, and yes, the way things were presented is exactly what you said. I'm pretty sure tons of people got their first taste of puro with the Super J Cups, the IWA deathmatche tournament (thanks to ECW) and bought When Worlds Collide as their first (and often only) "lucha" tape. I don't think either. Now shitloads of wrestling is available in a snap of a finger, without even having to pay. It changes everything. When you can only buy a few tapes a month, you are very selective and follow the gospel of what's supposed to be great. This is gone, and this is better. I wish I was ten year younger in that sense, that would have saved my some serious money... If I had the passion I had ten years ago with the availability of wrestling now, I would get crazy. Totally agree. Availability of a wide range of wrestling from all eras and territory make things totally different. Bt like Loss said, it's a subculture of a subculture of a subculture.

This is mostly correct, but I'd expect Takada to drop more than the others. Most of the sifts are 'positive', that is, discovering the volume of greatness from great talents. Takada's case has really been obliterated over the years. Between the '80s sets and the increasing respect for shoot-style that wasn't UWFi, what support Takada had as a Top 5 type is now either going to shift to other shoot-stylists (ie. Fujiwara, Tamura, Han, maybe Yamazaki), or he'll just flat-out drop. I never really 'got' the case to begin with, and in recent years I think it's almost become a boogeyman. It's mentioned more my people who don't hold the opinion than by people who do. As an old shoot-style fan, I never though Takada was great at straight shoot-style. Don't get me wrong, I thought he was really good, but not *great* at working the style, but it was not what Takada was about. He was all about working pro-wrestling epics with opponents as varied as Vader, Maeda, Backlund, Tenryu and even stiffs like Allbright. I always thought Yamazaki was superior in shoot-style, but then again, Yamazaki is the great lost worker of the 90's. As far as RINGS goes, Tamura, Han and Khousaka are also vastly superior to Takada in the straight style. I wonder why Khousaka doesn't seem to be pimped as much as Tamura or Han BTW these days. Back then Tamura and Khousaka were linked together as the two great shoot-style workers. I guess RINGS was never really popular and people are discovering it today or something, because the fact that a top 5 shoot-style workers "shifting" toward Han and Tamura is rather amusing to me when these two were always at the top of the rankings to me as far as the style goes. I guess waching RINGS 12 years ago put me in a ultra small minority. I wonder what people think of Yamamoto.

I'm surprised to hear you say this, because you always strike me as "Oh, so this isn't liked anymore, when did THAT happen?" guy. Maybe that's unfair, I don't know. I guess that's what I'm projecting these days, maybe because I've been very vocals about trends. But really, looking at the big picture, and outside of the guys I mentionned, I don't see a big shake up. Guys like Tiger and Dynamite were already harshly criticizes twelve years ago by some people, so there weren't any big concensus on them, ever. Maybe I said what you mentionned a lot, but I do think I repeated it over and over again over the same two or three topics. Oles was the "pro-wrestling as figure skating" guy. Man, at some point I will really have to revisit Takada, because I don't remember him lacking emotions at all. This anti-Takada trend has been the oddest to me. Hearing that Takayama, in 96 no less, when he still kinda sucked (and really, Takayama was very overrated to me during his peak several years later) outworked Takada just boggles my mind. I dunno, I changed my minds before about workers I thought were good or bad, at this point I've heard so much about Takada that I just wonder what I would think of this guy now, after hearing all this criticism that doesn't seem to fit with the memories I have at all. Takda being stoïc ? He never struck me that way at all.

Well, at least he's consistent.

Just for the record, I always loved Backlund and thought he was better than *good*, and the WWF SC poll complete with watching tons of Backlund matches from the 70's and 80's convinced me that he was a great worker. So, I may be on the "He's overrating Backlund" wagon, but I've always been a fan, I just wasn't aware he had so many excellent matches in his prime. DiBiase surely never worked harder than he needed too, especially in Japan. Terry Funk as the best wrester ever ? I'm ok with that thought.

But that's really all about the style he worked within, it's hard to compare, just like lucha. It's so specific. You're not. I've been watching the whole ECW product last year, so I watched a good amount of Benoit, and I'm into WCW 98 these days, so I'm watching ton of Benoit, and it doesn't bother me at all nor does that affect my views of his work. I know it might seem odd, but that's the case.

Well, you know we don't always the same tastes, to say the least. Your list is really the first time I've seen Fujinami in a "greatest wrestler ever" talk though, that's interesting. I wonder if that's strictly a personnal thing from you, or if it's a new "popular" opinion than emerged with the NJ set (I haven't followed the discussions much) ? I've been aware of the Fujiwara craze for a long while, but Fujinami being mentionned in that list really surprised me.

Tamura and Volk Han were more than just "great matwork". In the confines of their styles, they're just the greatest workers ever. Volk Han got good match out of the shittiest of the shittiest, the name of the guy was Tariel I think, and he managed to get something actually exciting out of that guy. The anti-Takada trend is the most ridiculous ever. I can understand the anti-Tiger Mask trend, moreso because I never bought Tiger as a great worker to begin with, although it goes way too far. Lawler I've had the opportunity to see more of him, and the issue is that, well, if you can get past the fact that 99% of his offense was a punch, the rest of Lawler's work was great (selling, bumping, facials). But the punching is an issue though. I have no idea where he would stand compared to Bret or Flair. Tenryu is a strange case. I think some anti-Tenryu sentiment came from the infamous Jewett comp which tended to show that Jumbo carried Tenryu to the famous greatest match of the 80's. And the fact that Tenryu was dismissed because he worked too much with NJ heavies, whose style was considered inferior, and indy leagues, including FMW. To me, the more I watched Tenryu, the more it was obvious this guy was a great worker. Not the greatest mechanic, but a great worker. Not as great as Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi, but who was ? Fujinami was great in the 80's, and merely good at best in the 90's, whith a very dated and often boring style whenever he didn't feel like working hard. Don't see a case for Fujinami at all. Despite what Benoit did, there's no doubt he is one of the greatest ever. Too fucking bad. Michaels is a rather laughable candidate.

Really, with a few exceptions (Fujiwara, Lawler, lucha guys), I don't see that much of a shake up. The fact that no ones pays attention to joshi is just sad, but it doesn't change the fact that Hokuto, Aja, Jaguar, Chiggy and Devil were some of the greatest of all time. Even back in the late 90's, Volk Han and Tamura were considered GOAT by people who cared about the style. Benoit is dropped for non-wrestling reasons, while Dundee shows up. I have no notion of Race not being pimped anymore, when did that happen ? You forgot Backlund though, he's a guy that after the WWF polls and SC and DVDVR can easily be add to the list. Really, I don't see any major changes, most of these guys were already pimped 10 years ago as GOAT. Most notable additions in the US and Japan fields are Lawler and Fujiwara. Fujinami I never heard him massively pimped as a GOAT, and considering his 90's work, I don't see it at all. It makes me laugh that Fuji would be considered while Takada of all people would be dropped. Takada's career murders Fuji. And I like Fuji.

I remember Terri saying she basically came up with the Marlena character and look all by herself.

In US only because I can't really judge Japan or Mexico, 2 Cold Scorpio or Chris Benoit, easily.

Fat jokes incoming I guess...

I guarantee no-one in WCW was thinking this at the time. Hogan only dropped the strap to him so soon because he spied an opportunity to con the TBS execs into believing he drew the 40,000 fans to the Georgia Dome for Nitro and he was still the hottest act in wrestling. Maybe it's just me thinking in retrospect then. But still Goldberg was obviously the Man like Bobby Heenan would say over and over again (really, Heenan at this point was really bad, but he did a great job putting Goldberg over, it seems like he understood Goldy was the future of the company), and he was destined to get the big belt at some point, nothing could stop that from happening. Hogan dropping the belt on Nitro was also a desperate way to get the ratings win back. How stupid was that to waste the obvious big money match they had just to pop a rating... It's rather fascinating to revisit that era.