El-P

Damn, he said "wrestler" a whole lot here.

The continuing adventures and travails of these men and women competing in the ring for championships and personal grudges. And like most Soaps, it never ends. South Park was right then. Seriously, this is completely retarded, and quite frankly, if I were a pro-wrestler taking pride in what I do and the passion I have in life, I would be both pissed and embarrassed that the ony worthwhile company to work for in the US is at this point of denial. It's even more retarded because there's no chance of them being referred as anything but wrestling, ever, so why even bother.

*"Retardation" should not be used. Instead, use "WWE"

I'm not *trying* to hold on to positive memories of Takada, Tom. I have positive memories of Takada. I've said it a thousand times already, I haven't watched a Takada match in like maybe 8 or 9 years. Probably 10. Now, if tomorrow I watch a ton of Takada matches and have a different perspective on his work than before, and for some reason I think he was not as good as I thought I'll have exactly zero problem admitting it. I'm not working on nostalgia, I just haven't seen the matches in a long time, and my memories are so positive that I'm pretty shocked that people despise him that much. Especially when the same people pimp Jerry Lawler as an all-time great worker, because I actually saw a lot of big Lawler matches, and although I do think Jerry was excellent, I don't think he was nearly as great as he's pimped to be. That's not from memories, that's from watching matches not so long ago. So, I figure : those people who pimp Lawler as one the greatest wrestler ever are overpushing it, maybe they are also overpushing the fact Takada sucks. That's all. But, like I said, if I rewatch Takada's matches tomorrow and think they suck and don't hold up, I'll have zero problem admitting it. I don't care. I'l be shocked and amazed, but that's it. Just another thing, on the "looking at the past through standards which have evolved", I'm sorry but it's exactly the opposite of using a historical perspective. If there's *one* thing you absolutely don't do in History, that's it. You never ever look at a period with your own modern standarts, it makes no sense and just leads to nonsense and poor interpretations. I should now, I've graduated as a History Master. I understand what you say about this very particular topic, but you're not talking about a "history" here. Call it whatever you want, "objective analysis", "criticism" or something, but not "history". History would on the contrary be looking at who was considered as the greatest then, and for what reasons. Which is something different. Historically, Tiger Mask was considered one of the greatest wrestler of all-time. It's neither right nor wrong, it's just the fact. Now, today, we have the right to look at this fact and analyse why this was the case then, and why in retrospect Tiger's match don't hold up.

I believe that the first plan was definitely Bret vs Shawn for the title at WM13, with Shawn refusing to do the job. Then they wanted to transition the title to Sid, but yet again, Shawn refused to job and "lost his smile". So they put the title on Bret to pass it on to Sid the following night on Raw, and they went into Sid vs Taker for the title and they got back to Bret vs Austin since Shawn didn't want to do business anyway and was "injured". I think it is what happened, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, these guys were basically competitive jobbers. Jim Powers was on Nitro every week in 1996. Along with Renegade, Joe Gomez, then Horowitz himself, Lenny Lane, Nick Densmore, Scott Putski... There were a bunch of jobbers, but WCW had so many hours of programms that these guys could win match on Pro and SN like Phil said. But they were essentially jobbers.

It's amazing how some people look way older than they are. The build, the baldness, the beard, Arn didn't look 38 at all, he looked *old*, but at the same time, he looked like he could kick the entire rooster's ass. On the same topic, Trish Stratus looks older than she is too, I think she aged a lot. She's only 35, but looks not a day under 40. A very beautiful 40 years old, but still.

Pat Patterson ins't there anymore I believe. And yes, he was a great mind to put together finishes and big matches together. He was also the guy putting together the Rumbles before they all looked overproduced and bland. The most infamous Patterson match was probably Hogan vs Warrior from WM 6.

Right, I forgot about the Sid job as well. Right, I think WM 13 was the first PPV he worked with the big knee brace on.

It was all bullshit because he didn't want to to a job to Bret at WM13 I believe.

It's so stupid it could be from Kurt Angle.

Wasn't most of the damage done by around 2001? I guess, Edge's reputation was made by working incredibly dangerous and stupid matches in which the whole purpose was falling from high places onto tables. Then he worked his whole career on a banged up body with neck issues. Way to go.

God I loved Pierre Carl Oulette as a pirate. It was so right. I mean, the guy really has only one eye, so the eyepatch was not even a gimmick, and the deep quebecer accent worked so well with the whole pirate deal. One of the lost worker and lost goofy gimmick of the 90's.

Exactly. Russo drove me out of WWF. Then he drove me out of WCW. Then ECW died. And WCW died. And although I watched a lot of big WWF matches from 00-04 for the GWE poll at SC, I never ever got back at watching US wrestling regularly. And I won't, I tried to watch Mania this year, and it was a chore. I tried to watch TNA PPV's over the last 3 or 4 years, but the promotion sucks too much. Bad wrestling just drove me away, and I'm not coming back.

Edge is 39. He debuted in WWF in the Summer of 1998. 13 years, and he's such a bad shape he has to retire. This is how quickly the bodies are used up now. I guess the dangerous bumping style he used to do during the attitude era, with countless ladder matches and such, contributed a lot to fuck up his neck. I don't care for the guy in the ring, but outside of hitting on his friend girl, Edge is a guy who always seemed like pretty down to earth and one who really loved wrestling. Good he's quitting before he gets really bad, although losing feeling sounds like already a bit too late. I remember he was groomed to be a big star as early as the Dory Funk camp, and he surely did great with himself for a guy who never did aything worthwhile before (he was squashed once on WCW saturday night I think).

Next year, don't miss The Rock and John Cena having a... confrontation... at the biggest.... entertainment extravaganza, EntertainmentMania 27... And don't miss the WWE Hal of Fame with old... entertainers... not athletes... nor wrestlers... just, old entertainers who... did some stuff in rings before...

Because Wrath, unlike Goldberg, actually had impressive moves to showcase, and he got over because of it. And really, these matches were not long at all, no way any of these got to seven minutes, these were still relatively short squashes. I would say 2 or 3 minutes at best. And after some point Wrath nearly only did the Meltdown. The following week, Wrath gets a super short squash, but he doesn't get the same reaction as before Nash beat him. Nice job. And surprisingly Konnan beats Jericho for the TV belt, despite the fact Jericho was in a feud with Bobby Duncum Jr. Oh, Nash, gotta love you booking for your friends.

Remember the push Wrath got from September ? He basically got the Goldberg treatment, beating guys every week, getting over quite nicely his finisher, being prepared for basically some big match down the stretch with Goldberg, I guess. So what does Kevin Nash do after winning WWIII ? He beats the guy, clean, on Nitro. End of streak. I feel this Kevin Nash booked WCW will be kinda fun for all the wrong reasons. When did Nash lost the booking power ? I think he lost it way before Russo came in, but I could be wrong.

They discussed it in the documentary. IIRC it was to make WM different in addition to being a better song. Didn't Reba McEntire sing Star Spangled Banner at WM 8 ?

What John said, why can't Jerry Lawler lay out his own match himself ? It's ridiculous. Yeah, the match went too long, but really, anyone with half a brain should have been able to get what people wanted to see : Jerry lawler kill Michael Cole, have the guy on the outside interfere so Austin could stun him, piledriver, or at least big punch from the second rope (and not a stupid ankle lock), end of the match, Jerry drinks beer with Austin, and have Austin stun Cole to boot. They just did a terrible job. Not a brain dead as with Bret vs Vince last year, but still pretty terrible.

So, Meltzer said that Dean Malenko got heat because he's the one laying down the Lawler vs Cole match. Two things : _the WWE is so micro-managed that at this point you actually have a guy to tell Jerry fucking Lawler how to work a match ? _Dean Malenko is laying down matches ? Really ? This is a guy who was never any good at laying down his own match, he was infamous for "working in a vacuum" syndrome. Dean Malenko, as much as he was a great technician, was never a particulary good worker from a how to build a match standpoint. I always thought Dean had no business being lumped into the Benoit/Guerrero category, really the only reason he was I think was because of the NJ connection. Dean was just not that great of a worker.

Superstar Graham always came off as a total dumbfuck to me. Yes, to this day he believes putting the belt on Backlund didn't draw shit and that the guy wasn't over. The numbers and the matches are out there for you to check out. Now this ? Man, what a carny old fool.

Retirement stip from WM 7 ? I don't think so. I think Savage wanted some time off with Liz as they were thinking of having a child. Then things degenerated between the two, I'm not sure when they divorced, but their relationship was probably not the best when they did the wedding angle. Savage really was phased out after Survivor Series 92, and when they began RAW. ANd it was all about Vince thinking Savage was too old, which was ridiculous, as he was a legit star at the time and could have helped a lot to build guys like Bret. His heat with Hogan culminated when Hogan came back in 93. It's amazing these two worked so much together in WCW, and that Savage ended up being Hogan's bitch again.

That's amazing. And retarded. And sad, really. Bryan wondered aloud if Lucha Libre was banned on Mexican TV too when that about Catch was mentioned. Kind of sad given Catch is/was a part of German culture. Catch is the term used in France also. Quite frankly, I do think it wasn't used as early as the mid 90's when Ray Rougeau was doing the announcing, he was only using the word "superstar". He would throw the word "lutteur", which in French means "wrestlers", but really is the french-canadian word for "pro-wrestler", as in France we say "catcheur". Anyway, WWE is simply trying to erase wrestling because Vince is in denial of what he does. It's just insane. Quite frankly, it's embarrassing because everyone else in the world refers as WWF as "pro-wrestling". They as dumb as fuck if they think one day they'll be seen as an "entertainment company".

That's amazing. And retarded. And sad, really.