alexoblivion

Último Dragón vs. Felino(12/10/1993) Not sure why this isn't in circulation, or that Cota/Kato Kung Lee match from the same show, but Paul Herzog included this one in full on his Lucha comp from the early 90's.

I think it's just from a year end show, but Paul Herzog included that Felino/Ciclon Ramirez match on his lucha comp in the early 90's and described it as better than their match in May. I don't know if it's accurate, but K and D's online match listings have that Felino/Magica match airing, so it seems like it should be out there some where.

I wonder if Bob Barnett was ever a source for Dave. One name I've been curious about is Jesse Elliot Money. I know he was sending in results, but was he also someone whose opinion Dave would have trusted? Digging through old RSPW posts, his name is pretty synonymous with lucha.

Weird. Last time I watched this I was more impressed with Lizmark than I was Satanico. I actually thought Lizmark's front facelock was fine, and thought rubbing his forearm in Satanico's eyes was a pretty cool touch as well.

A watchable version of the Bestia Salvaje/Hector Garza/Satanico hair match from 95 would be cool. There are some old comments on google.groups that confirm that the Emilio Charles Jr/Satanico hair match from 98 aired, so that's something that is probably attainable somehow. Not sure if these fit the holly grail criteria for everyone, but here's a list of matches that Cubsfan has airing that, at the moment, are not widely circulating: Dr Wagner vs Pierroth Jr. (4/2/93) Mocho Cota vs Ultimo Dragon (11/19/93) Mano Negra vs Bestia Salvaje( 12/3/93) Mocho Cota vs Kato Kung Lee (12/10/93) Emilio Charles Jr. vs La Fiera (4/15/94) Javier Cruz vs. Americo Rocca (10/14/94) Atlantis vs Dr Wagner (12/17/95) Silver King vs La Fiera (3/21/97) That Cota/Dragon title match from 93 was on one of the lucha comps that Paul Herzog put together in the 90's, so that seems like something that is attainable as well.

Out of curiosity Cad, what would you rate higher, that Lizmark trios or the Bestia/Kato match that aired on the same episode? I only ask since you rate the trios so highly, and I had completely slept on the greatness of it as well.

Fuerza Guerrera vs Olimpico (2/16/99) Twitter told me that PWO was horrible and dead, so it is my obligation to further this perception and make sure to continue to post my scrambled opinions in this thread. This benefited immensely from the great atmosphere provided by the fans at Arena Coliseo as they were feeling this one. I loved the rudo cheering section at ringside that worships Fuerza and Olimpico’s father, who is a former wrestler, nervously smoking cigarettes in the audience. Too bad the work in the ring couldn’t match that atmosphere. Fuerza kept things simple in the first fall as he guided Olimpico through obligatory title match matwork, with Olimpico always able to find a flashy counter to stay one step ahead. Because of this, Fuerza immediately switches gear and becomes more aggressive. This catches Olimpico off guard and allows Fuerza to maintain control up until the end of the second fall. Even though he hadn’t really taken that much damage, I loved the start of the third fall with Fuerza laying in the corner and refusing to start the match. The 3rd fall was exciting as it was back and forth with both digging deep to try and win, and Olimpico and Fuerza trading near falls. Olimpico of course gets the win and his celebration with his dad was cool. This wasn’t great, but it was good and the 3rd fall was genuinely exciting.

Lizmark vs. Emilio Charles 5/30/97 While this didn’t live up to my to unrealistically high expectations, I still thought this was good. Unfortunately though,this does feel incomplete as the finish was a double count out and was too short for a title match. Strange thing to write, but I did enjoy the one-sided nature to this match as Lizmark was immediately the more aggressive of the two, really pushing the pace early and trying to put Emilio away at every opportunity. Because of this, Emilio was forced to be defensive, and came across as pretty crafty and resourceful, as he was always trying to find a counter to stay in this.

Just because someone like's lucha doesn't mean they have the inability to distinguish between what was a good or bad match, or that fans of lucha don't have differing opinions or taste. Not that I post that often, but I would consider your criticism applicable to me, as I pretty much just post on the matches that I enjoyed and don't really offer that much in-depth analysis. As someone who watches a lot of full shows, there are plenty of mediocre or bad matches that I watch that I don't offer any thoughts on. I do agree with the sentiment that there is a lack of in-depth discussion in regards to lucha, though admittedly I am part of the problem as I do not contribute that often. In regards to the rankings, I do find it interesting that Lizmark will not be making that many lists, as I would argue that he does have longevity on his side as even in 97 and 98 he was still performing at a high level.

Mascara Magica vs Karloff Lagarde Jr. (2/6/98) This was solid as Mascara and Karloff meshed well together, and even though I wouldn’t consider this too memorable in the long run, I could see placing this in the lower half of the top 100 matches of 1998 as it was well structured and both guys put in a good performance. Stylistically, I appreciate that they saved any pin attempts or near falls for the 3rd fall, and because of the structure and selling, they really got the most out of their offense. Bestia Salvaje/El Brazo/Emilio Charles Jr. vs Negro Casas/La Fiera/ Hector Garza (7/21/95) The focus of this was the El Brazo/Hector Garaza feud, and because there are so many talented individuals involved, this had some entertaining moments, though it was really too short and incomplete to be anything more than that. Worth watching for EL Brazo though, as he walked the line between coward and psychopath. Guessing because he didn’t blade himself, Garza ends up bleeding a ridiculous amount. Not much to add in regards to Casas, as besides a brief exchange with Bestia, he wasn't much of a presence in this. Lizmark/Volador/Super Muneco vs Los Payasos (11/94) Really fun watch and a good showcase for those involved. Los Payasos bump and feed, Lizmark hits some really slick shit, Volador does some cool highspots, and Muneco provides a good reason to watch this. Munceo and the Clowns apparently hate each other so you get some pretty violent moments when Muneco is involved. Like unexpectedly violent moments as poor Munceo eats some really nasty headbutts and posting in this. Quality of the Muneco/Payasos match up only leads me to questioning how the other Muneco and Los Payasos matches were. Satanico/Emilio Charles Jr vs Pierroth Jr/Dr. Wagner Jr (12/2/94) Much more offense driven than I was expecting as they start working near falls and submission attempts pretty early on, and because a majority of the pins and submission attempts are interrupted, you get to see the wrestlers run through their offense pretty quickly. Booking wise there are some interesting things, as the first fall ends with a count out and double pinfall, while the second fall had Emilio single handily coming back from behind and winning the match for his team. While Satanico and Wagner had their moments, I really enjoyed Pierroth and Emilio in this. Both just really brought a lot of energy and physicality, as well as matching up well against each other. Felino vs Karloff Lagarde Jr (4/21/98) Not a great match by any means, but I did find it to be worth watching. Not that Lagarde is some great lost worker, but I do enjoy watching him as he is the complete opposite of his peers at the time and there are some aspects to his career that I don’t fully understand…aspects like how he was able to amass so many high profile trainers, and if in fact his LuchaWiki information is to be believed in regards to his trainers. He also does some simple, but nifty things that appeal to me, like stepping on someone’s ankle/foot and pushing them down, which I promise is a lot cooler than I’m making it sound. Match was mostly made up of really simple uncooperative stuff throughout that could be deceivingly nasty at times, with some slick exchanges mixed in. The matwork between Felino and Lagarde came off as pretty uncooperative and physical, and both were active when working or trying to escape from a hold. Second fall was interesting as they continue to do a lot of takedowns and matwork, except Felino stiffens up and clamps his hands down when Lagarde takes him down, making it difficult for Lagarde to grab a hold. They also continue a lot of the simple amateur style pinfall attempts that come off pretty energy exerting, as they are both are just constantly trying to gain the advantage, and as an added bonus will do things like stick their elbow in the other guy’s face or throat. What really takes this match down a level is how short the third fall is and how abruptly it ends. The problems with the third fall seem to be more on Felino’s shoulders, as Lagarde seemed game when it came time to turn it up a notch.

The Casas/Fiera and Satanico/Morgan hair matches from 93 are both pretty incredible.

Off topic and all, but regarding title matches being on the up and up in 1990, wasn't it discovered by the EMLL office in the 80's in regards to booking women wrestlers that the commission didn't actually have any power over the promotion?

El Dandy & Olimpico vs Bestia/Damian el Gerrero 7/30/96 This was cool. Nothing earth shattering, but it was a fun watch. It was brief, but it turned out heated with the crowd being into the match from the start. The Olimpico/Damian feud was the focus of the match, so Dandy and Bestia made sure their respective partners were able to inflect damage upon the other while keeping each other at bay. Damien bloodies Olimpico, which was pretty entertaining to watch,and Olimpico gets his revenge. By the end of this Olimpico was able to match some of Damian’s tenacity and viciousness. There are other moments worth singling out, but Dandy’s sign of the cross before his corner tope on Bestia was a cool moment.

Wasn't sure where else to post this, but I completely spaced out that I asked Konnan about Cota and Fiera during his Reddit AMA before Triple Mania. I checked today and was happy to see that he actually replied. Answer will probably affirm the already known or assumed for many, but I have to admit any other answer would have been disappointing. Well lets just say he ended up in jail in Nogales..i went to visit him and he ran the place..super cool dude...and always kept it 100..La Fiera one of the best wrestlers i have ever seen..he hung out alot with Mocho and Jerry Estrada, they were always in strip clubs, bars, they played extremely hard but could bring it in the ring

I've seen their Mano a Mano, but can't seem to find their hair match.The trios tournament from the same date is out there so maybe the hair match is out there somewhere.

Negro Casas/El Dandy/Mascara Magic vs Mano Negra/Mocho Cota/Bestia Salvaje 1/17/95 Tricky edit in this as the match starts with Dandy in a headlock by Cota, which I guess was done by CMLL and not whoever recorded this on their VCR. Disappointing, as their second exchange is brief but intense. They work a sequence after a good Mano Negra and Casas exchange(more so because of the former) with a fired up Cota shaking Dandy’s hand on the outside that made me really want to see more between the two. Coliseo fans had an interesting reaction to Cota and Casas paring off in the third fall that I would like to interpret as some type of buzz, but I can’t figure out whether it was positive or negative. This was ok but needed more. Everyone was fine in this, but Mano and Cota, and to a lesser extent Dandy and Casas, really exerted the most effort and both showed that they had more to offer at the time than random ass trios matches.

There’s so much footage from his initial CMLL run that I don’t know what to think of that run yet, but when just looking at his 94 and comparing him to his stablemates, I don’t think he surpassed Dandy or Texano. The same quick, athletic style that King is working in 94, Texano is doing but only better, and no way does King have anything in his career as good as the Dandy/Llanes match from 94. The Charles and Dantes single matches are good, but they both were just as responsible for the quality in those as King.

Jerry Estrada vs Rey Misterio Sr. 7/8/94 Started off promising as the first fall was worked at a pretty fast rate that featured some good brawling and bumping between Rey Sr and Estrada, with some cool moments such as Estrada kicking Rey Jr. while putting his bandana back on and Estrada licking Senior’s blood was just as disgusting as intended. Towards the end of the second fall the booking in this really started to drag the match down, which is unfortunate as the work between the two was still good. 3rd fall ends before it even gets started as interference ends the match. Rey Sr. looked great in this, as his bumping, selling, and offense were tremendous. I thought Estrada was good in this as well, but one thing that bugged me was that he just came off as spaced out when selling sometimes, more so towards the end. Perro Aguayo vs Fishman 6/23/92 Pretty much what I was hoping it would be. Plenty of nastiness in this with stiff headbutts, punches, chops, kicking, and ripping at each other’s faces. Shit, even their drop kicks had quite a bit of force. Some visceral stuff throughout; the pin by Perro on Fishman with him sticking his knee in Fishman’s throat, Perro gouging at Fishman’s eye to get out of an abdominal stretch, and both kicking at each other while they were down, which pretty much summarized the tone of the match as they did not let up on each other. Even without a finish this was still a pretty satisfying watch.

Just thought I would start a thread for thoughts on various lucha matches from any time period, and for matches that perhaps don’t belong on the worth watching section of the yearbook project. Would encourage anyone to participate or contribute as it’s always interesting to read other’s thoughts on a match they do or don’t like. Thought I would start this off with a match that I really like, but one that may not belong on a yearbook: (Pierroth Jr. and Vampiro vs Jaque Mate and Masakre 3/5/93) This started with some solid matwork between Mate and Pierroth that had an edge to it as Mate was trying to prove himself as Pierroth’s equal. Pierroth tries to keep on good terms with his teammates but also prevent them for teaming up on Vampiro, which Mate and Masakre take offense to. Vampiro and Masakre have decent chemistry and Vampiro lets Masakre do his thing to take him out of the first fall. By the second fall, Mate decides to burn bridges with Pierroth, with it becoming clear that he doesn’t care about winning, but destroying Pierroth, which he does. The beat down goes on for some time, and never ceases to being engaging. Mate works over Pierroth with plenty of intensity and contempt, with Pierroth on the receiving end of a lot of nasty head butts and biting, never letting up on Pierroth. Masakre joins in when Mate is finally restrained; delivering with the same contempt that almost equaled Mate’s. Credit should be given to Pierroth for this as well; his selling, bleeding, and charisma kept this engaging. (Ringo Mendoza vs. Javier Cruz vs. Mogur 3/2/93 Triangle Hair Match) Not terrible, but disappointing. The only one who wrestled with any urgency or animosity in this was Ringo. Ringo was posting dudes, throwing good punches, biting, and working over the small cuts on both Javier and Morgur. I thought Javier would have done more with this opportunity, as it’s clearly a match designed to build him up, but Ringo, and even Mogur on a lesser level, really out shined Javier’s pedestrian performance. Should also mention that there were a lot of empty seats visible in Arena Coliseo. (Dos Caras/Lizmark/El Dandy vs Negro Casas/Bestia Salvaje/Chicago Express 5/31/1996) Worth watching for the interactions between Dandy and Casas. From the beginning Casas went out of his way to make it personal with Dandy. What little matwork Casas does with Dandy in this have a little extra physicality from Casas, and his kicks and punches in this looked great. Dandy eventually blades after some of those aforementioned kicks to the face from Casas, losing his resolve and opening up Casas in return. Favorite moment of this was Casas ripping at Dandy’s eye before the finish, as besides kicking someone in the face, simple things like that go a long way in conveying the hatred.

That's understandable. I've looked at that list, and the only single matches of Rey that he listed from 92-94 are some of the Juventud matches. This only makes me more curious about the quality of a Rey/Karloff or Rey/Mr Condor match.

Yeah I don't know. The NY Times article that was linked in the fortune post wrote that Gawker was arguing that because Hogan had made his sexual proclivities a matter of public interest, that it was newsworthy, and not an invasion of privacy. Some of it also seems to come down to the idea that a jury should not be able to decide what is newsworthy.

http://fortune.com/2015/06/13/hogan-sex-tape-gawker-jury/ I don't know what Bix said, but this article suggests that sentiment as well.

OJ, do you have any thoughts on Rey's early single matches from the 92-94 range? Some of them, particularly his 93 feud with Los Destructores, sound pretty intriguing on paper.