Matt D

I'm going to repeat my feelings: Great matches are a starting point. No, an "Entry Point" and not at all the only one, but it is a useful one.* *I like the Parv that tries to rationalize how many opportunities the Flair Flip presents than the one who makes lists.

This makes me think the ideas we have about what makes a great match are something we need to explore too, because I think Bad Match Theorists (for lack of a better term, but it also makes me laugh ) sort of assume that those on the other side think matches that aren't sprawling epics aiming for MOTY status are a waste of time. That's not true at all. I think it's a worthwhile question because I can think of a lot of great matches where it being that probably wasn't the primary objective. In fact, in most cases, those are probably the best matches of them all. "The goal" is interesting too, because I don't really care what the objective is as much as what the outcome is. And again, I prefer to talk about it as good matches, not great matches. And I feel like shifting the conversation where we're using good matches as a barometer is far less alienating. Yes? No? See, I'd lean towards Great Performances or Right Performances. Or "Right Performances that are done with Greatness." But I'm less comfortable with matches than you are. I think we can look at both good matches and at performances, ESPECIALLY in a post-GWE world. We have to live with the peace.

FUCKING EXACTLY! Steven, I know your back is against the wall here, but I don't think we can jump to that. It's an honest question. I know my answer, or I think I do, but there are a lot of distracting corollaries here, like drawing and what not. I think that every match has a purpose, and that purpose can be achieved with a level of greatness, and the output therein can be great as well. But that's not going to lead to a great match through the conventional definition of "great match." It'll almost always lead to a great performance though. Certain people DID have the job to have what we consider great matches, and in general, those people had great matches far more often. Someone like Kobashi, in this case, had a job to go out there and put on what we consider to be great matches on a nightly basis. He was given the canvas, the time, the opponents, the mandate, the structure, clean finishes, the ability to escalate, no one getting in his way. That was his job. Other people had different jobs, and maybe those people accomplished those jobs, within different limitations, just as greatly. It's a starting point to me. What did he do with his opportunity, how far did he work with it, what did he learn from it. How was he great within the great match? How was someone else great or not in a match that didn't have the same opportunities. There's a lot more going on here. It's not about what wrestler had the most opportunities. It's about what every wrestler does with every opportunity. One with great matches just gets more an earlier and deeper look.

Is putting on great matches really the goal?

just a bit for now. I'm on my phone here. I'll say this. The general issue is looking at what makes the matches great and trying to find patterns and factoring in different situations especially when a wrestler's job was to be great in a way that results in something other than snowflakes. Great matches are a starting point, and one to be examined closely and weighed heavily but they are just one of many. Great matches are just one thing that matters. And in a comparative setting like GWE, the deconstruction and analysis of the greatness matters more than the greatness itself. Great matches are beacons in the darkness. The understanding of the greatness is everything.

Charles is a true friend, and as my friend, my only feelings towards him are those of gladness that he will be able to experience the joy of the matches in question for the first time. That is all.

"Ok" is a massive upgrade over how old-man Cota was viewed back in the day, but that apuesta match in particular I didn't really care for. The people back in the day sure had a narrow-minded view of what lucha could be. Reading some of the WONs from the time are painful.

I wonder if I'm the high vote on Cota.

I would say around 10 people on my list were helped by the Classics footage. A lot of that was just moving a slot here or a slot there, but still, it made a difference to have long, complete matches with excellent video footage. Something like a Ken Patera or Greg Valentine 2/3 falls match from 1979 makes a difference since a lot of the footage we might have from them from that era is grainy garbage tapes with clipped matches. And that's some of the more run of the mill stuff and not the over the top things like MX vs Fantastics or Race vs Andre or Lewin vs Funk matches.

Lothario would be even higher a year from now, I bet. Maybe even a couple of weeks from now after the Patera match hits. That's how new his footage is. Every match moves the needle.

Been quite a while since one of mine's popped up (and Ron Simmons wasn't one either).

Street is a bit of a footage thing for me. I nominated him but I just don't think we have enough. I mean, I get that you know what you're getting pretty easily, but I just wanted more. That's just because you refuse to watch Continental. Terrible. I've been watching some Continental lately actually, but it's for someone else.

Street is a bit of a footage thing for me. I nominated him but I just don't think we have enough. I mean, I get that you know what you're getting pretty easily, but I just wanted more.

As butt offense goes, Maximo didn't even get nominated.

I can see someone who values peak valuing 99-04 highly. I'm not sure he's better than Rip Rogers though. I made the mistake of watching another Volador/Sombra match last night (I should have known better), so maybe I'm just in a bad lucha mood.

I can't wait for that Bracero vs Race match to drop.

Barring further msihap, I plan on listening to the beginning tonight. I may or may not have words with our good friend Loss after that.

I can see the case for inclusion, especially if you can stretch your mind to accept the idea of rote and ritual as a valid form of pro wrestling (and that's a big stretch because even things you THINK are somewhat ritualistic like late 80s Hogan matches, really aren't to this same degree), but 40?

I am DYING to know who went 40 on Ultimo Guerrero. He's someone who has lots of fun tag matches in the early 00s and equally fun stuff against Satanico, and he's sort of a Triple H analog in that he's had big main event matches for the decade, and I thought about voting for him towards the very end, because he's obviously good at what he does, but you'd almost have to be religiously accepting of the idea of "ritual" in pro wrestling. Not structure, not tools or tricks or even repetition, but actual ritual. So many of his matches are move for move the same when you hit a certain point, not in a Bret Five Moves of Doom sort of way or in a Cena comeback sort of way, or whatever, but in actual two-three minute stretches, and so much of the stuff (like his opponent running up to eat the reverse suplex from the top) involves the concept of fate. His opponent HAS to do that, because he is in an Ultimo Guerrero match. There's no choice. There is no free will. I'm not sure I've ever seen a wrestler like him in that regard. It's intentional. There are parts of the crowd that eat it up. It's like fans singing along to Rocky Horror or something. You don't want to deviate from the mold. And there are years and years of this.

No way could Dolph do as well in this match as Gunn did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziz4zVfcgz4

Way to come forward, man.

At second look, I'm even more excited. The gems are Morton vs Bock and Valentine vs Wahoo but that's not nearly all of it. Those Gino/Tully matches look like a lot of fun (So does Mil vs Tully). We've already gone through the JYD vs Bock match we've already had (and I think the Brody one too) so these should be something we haven't seen at least. More Spoiler is always good. Race vs Halcon is exciting too. Patera should be a great Lothario opponent.

I could have gotten Tenta into the top 300. Ah well.

Hey, we haven't seen Tenta, have we? He didn't make my list (Shamefully) but I'm glad we haven't seen him yet.

I'm at 7 now, all in my bottom 20. (I think)