Matt D

You mean because we're all going to die before all the good wrestling is watched? Wait, you're saying you don't have a healthy neurotic reaction to the GWE deadline?

What was even worse was when they put her with Hurricane/Rosey and she complained about wearing the mask. With the Dudleys there was always the sense that they could turn on her at any moment so she was supposed to be somewhat sympathetic in that role.

My main point here is that I felt similarly do you do on various elements. We obviously don't agree on everything, but we do have certain overlaps. I was frustrated in that I didn't understand why people were so much higher on it than I was. I wanted to figure out what made it tick. Once I started to see the patterns, I found a lot to enjoy even on some of the metrics you listed above. I don't think you're there yet. It's okay if you want to cut your losses though. I actually think, however, there are a number of aspects to lucha that you'd be more interested in than I am, at least in an academic sense. I think right now we are all in an environment of being on borrowed time which changes the way we look at almost everything.

I'll repeat again that it took a lot of matches, and not necessarily 5* ones for me to feel like I had a handle on everything. I'm still learning too. I had to look for a lot of patterns in good matches, in not so good matches, in matches that happened week to week, in title matches, in trios, in trios title matches, in apuestas, matches from the 80s, the 90s, the 00s. I had to really figure out why they were doing what they were doing. You can't do that by being selective I think. I understand that you don't have the time for a deep dive right now, but it's something to think about for next year. I have things on my list for post-march, too. Akiyama, Hashimoto, joshi in general. Hopefully I can tackle a lot of PR before march, but if not. Etc. But then you almost wonder "should I be watching a hundred hardcore blood matches to properly understand the norms and context? Should I be watching a hundred modern indy spotfests, etc.?"

One thing I personally had a lot of trouble with was the Bockwinkel vs Wahoo match on the AWA set, which people loved because it was very stiff. I tend to see stiffness as a tool, just like indy highspot headdrops or lucha matwork or lots of dives or hitting someone with a barbed wire baseball bat. It's very much about how the tools are used, no matter what they are (which comes back to the use of selling to establish meaning as the most important aspect of wrestling to me) and I didn't think the stiffness was used as well as it could be in that match. That said, some tools "work" better than other and maybe not all styles are equal (which I'd attribute to Dylan, but I'm not sure he believes in copyright). Also, style isn't an excuse for poor storytelling and good storytelling can exist across almost any style. I do think we can come up with some commonalities that define "good storytelling," such as build and payoff, etc. I'm going all over the place here though.

I think I do somewhat better with lucha because I see wrestling as symbolic as much as anything else. The spirit of what's going on matters more than the execution. It has to be consistent within its own world and I have to buy into that world. It's also, in part, why I don't think I do as well with Japan. Which is a broad statement, but I'm still making it. Frankly, unless it's as a way in, a skeleton key, I'm not sure suggesting exceptional (as in matches that are the exception, not the rule) to Parv is the way to go. While it's always good to find a match you like, even in a style you don't, it sort of misses the point. I call that the Brisco Bros vs Adonis/Murdoch rule. It felt weird to me to see that as the #2 match on the WWF set. It'd be like having Flair vs Magnum that high on the AWA set. Sort of an alien entity. You wouldn't rave about Flair vs Magnum or Briscos vs North-South and then say that you really liked a AWA singles or WWF tag match. Sure, there are lucha title matches with a strong limb focus, but that just lets someone be distracted from the other things going on. It doesn't make someone enjoy their flavor if he didn't already. It's like putting a ton of hot sauce on something you don't like to make it palatable.

That sounds more interesting than 95% of heavyweight Japanese wrestling to me. I should check him out at some point.

Here's Bock vs Gagne:

You're never going to get yourself over that way

Video says it's : June 28, 1981. St. Paul, Minnesota. I will fully admit to being a sucker for the big moment of the Baron putting on the claw while in the sleeper. They really built to it. A Martel match from 9/29/83 popped up this morning. I don't think that was on the AWA set. As well as a Verne vs Bock match from St. Paul in 1980 that I'm not sure if I've seen before or not.

Ended up watching Bockwinkel vs Santana (20 mins out of 27), Bockwinkel vs Bravo (about the same), Bockwinkel vs the Baron (10 mins or so), Ellering/Road Warriors vs Blackwell/High Flyers, Freebirds vs Tenryu/Ishikawa, a Misterioso/Volador Sr title match and about half the Puebla show tonight. I caught the ADR/Zeb promo too, which was rough. Otherwise, it was a pretty good night for wrestling on my end.

One advantage with Survivor Series is that they can still get a lot of guys on the card while focusing on a select 2-4 in multiple matches through the magic of traditional elimination matches.

I wouldn't mind them going from 32 to 16 beforehand, though.

How much do early sales matter relative to late sales when it comes to that too? When tickets were on sale, did it look like Bryan was out of the main event picture or not?

We should have a pool on the exact length of Triple H's promo tonight.

We have 5-6 Kellett matches online. I'm bringing back the train of thought reviews for them. Couple of notes: 1.) He was a real character, apparently, not a nice person, not someone people liked to work with. Tough to a fault. There are a lot of stories out there online. 2.) OJ said previously that if you saw one of his matches, you sort of saw them all. I'm 3 or 4 in and I haven't quite felt that to be true 3.) You should watch the match before reading my review as I'm going to give away all the punch lines, but there's so much to the act and to the comedy that it felt warranted to go into such detail and sort of comment on each and every bit. 4.) While I've watched a good number of matches from this era, this is the first deep dive I've done into comedy. Maybe this is more commonplace than it feels and less novel, but, to me, right now, it feels special enough to examine. Les Kellett vs Johnny South 1974-5-11 Kellett is hard to place facially. There's a Jimmy Cagney thing to him and an Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal element. He looks like an old rat pack companion twenty years past his prime, or maybe a slightly evil Sylvester McCoy who had just a little too much to drink. South looks a little like Eric Idle as Brave Sir Robin. He's bigger and from the get go, you get the sense this won't be a friendly affair. He starts with a hammerlock and stomping. Kellett's greatest strength is probably his reactions to things. Post stomp, he looks to the ref, hesitates for a moment and there's a chummy sense of "Who does this guy think he is?" about South. That's when he starts to turn on the shitck, leaaaaaning back away from the lock up. South sells it beautifully, ending up off balance, posturing and pointing, and then, expecting it again, getting mared twice as Kellett drives in instead. He finishes the exchange by pressing in and yelling as South has no idea how to react. South's ultimate reaction in the match is increasing escalation as he loses his cool more and more. Here, it's with a hammerlock (back hammer) and the UK equivalent of hide the object, which is maneuver around the ref and hide the punch, again and again to the side. This will be important later, as it's the first of many elements being set up to be called back upon later. That's what's probably most impressive about Kellett's comedy to me. It's big and it's broad and it's clever but it's also set up and paid off. It's not just an old trick in the moment. South moves into a double trap hold. Kellett, using one of those old tricks, sells it with clapping to show he's still in the match and eye-rolling that rouses the crowd. The punchline is a clap to the ref's hands that pops the crowd. That mark checked off, he launches an elbow and his knee-lift, apologizing to the ref in good measure, and follows it with his own prancing lean in, fists up, which South has no idea what to make of. South, wanting to be taken seriously, rushes in with a double knucklelock, spinning, twisting, into a criss-cross arms around the neck lock from behind. Kellett, generally able to slip a bit of wrestling in, from what I've seen, kept the momentum going, reversing it for his own hold and ending it with his trademark primed kick to the back of the head. The punctuation was a stomp (not in the same motion of the hold, so thus illegal were he to do it) with a big comedic step over and falling into the ref. Again, South, frustrated, trips the leg and starts working it. grinding as South yells repeatedly to sell it. The crowd laughs, and I'm not even sure why at this point. They must have caught a facial expression we didn't. It's an interesting mix, the combination of selling and having a laugh with everything. It ends with Kellett kicking South in the back repeatedly, harshly, until he breaks the hold. The ref admonishes South's attempt to try a new hold after the break; Kellett goofily complains that the ref should "tell him about that" and the ref turns on him, causing him to recoil and the fans to burst into laughter (again). Kellett ends the round with a knee claw (yes a knee claw), shaking violently to South's reactions, his head moving this way and that as if he was seizing. The punchline here is that he gets to pretend that he didn't hear the bell until the ref pulls him off and chases him to the corner, where he hides behind his second and salutes the reprimanding of the ref. Round two starts with a wobbly legged refusal to tie up, a whip into the corner by Kellett, and some Ministry of Silly Walks steps that pisses off South more. South is good here, lurking over Kellett so that he can grab onto him with a new hold the second he gets to his feet. He ended up offsides, however, jumping the gun, which let Kellett just lay there, taking a breather and playing to the crowd without a ten count (as it was an illegal start by South). When the ref finally starts to count, he shouts at him "you told me to take my time!" and the crowd roars again. He ends up back on his feet with his bottom lip over his top looking like Popeye. South, who has had enough, grabs a foot, causing Kellett to start hopping. This makes South feel pretty good about himself right until the point that Kellett hops onto his foot. The timing on this is just perfect, just the right number of hops to let South look smug and get the fans ready for what's about to come. And we get some level of payoff to all of the trolling build up. South slams his hands upon the match raises them into the air and charges across the ring, diving for Kellett, who casually steps onto the apron through the ropes, forcing the world's most aggravating break for South. When the ref yells at Kellett for being cheeky, he shows how his arm was over the rope, and for good measure places the ref's over the rope too. More roars of laughter ensue. And in the moment of confusion, Kellett bursts across the ring to shoot another mare on South, punctuating THAT with a nasty kick. South of course rushes back across the ring, and Kellett leaaaaans back again, causing South to land on his face. When he tells Kellett to stand still, that's exactly what he does, chin jutted, feet together, and South can't figure out what to make of it. He tells him to stop and Kellett leans in this time, causing South to land on his face the other way. Next spot: the set up is that Kellett has a leg and South makes a rope breaks; the payoff is that he gets the legs again, and as South reaches the ropes, Kellett lifts him up and pancakes him on his face. Laughter ensures again. South gets his moment though, as Kellett tries to follow that up with a slam and South lands on him for the fall. He puts in a few stomps to the stomach for good measure, which lets Kellett sell his stomach/ribs all the way to his corner. So after two rounds, the score is 1-0 South. This starts something of a heat segment, with South capitalizing on the damage to the ribs. He's in there playing hide the punch, and locking in a deathlock, really jamming his elbow into Kellet's stomach over and over. It's pretty nasty altogether, but Kellett responds by fighting his way up, daring South to punch him (which would have broken the hold if not led to a public warning). In the moment of distraction, he pushes him over, but South regains the hold, only to get distracted again (with Kellett daring him to punch once more, shouting "you listen to that referee" at the admonishing which drew a push from South, and sitting up immediately with a big slap), which led to the break and Kellett getting both of South's legs. He teases a stomp but walks a few steps away smugly. South, frustrated again, dives in with a flying body scissors. After a few seconds, Kellett seemed to grab something unpleasant to break the hold. When South complains and shows his rear to the ref and Kellett, he gets kicked right there for good measure. South demands that Kellett do the same, and takes advantage of it by rushing in, teasing that same kick and hiding a choke instead. For all that he's getting eaten alive and clowned in this match, Kellett's doing a good job of still giving South something, not just that first fall, but also moments of cathartic punishment to make up for Kellett's antics. Here he clubbers him over the top rope and yanks him back off of them to the floor. Of course, the long term selling is suspect, for Kellett follows this up by pulling his tights up and walking forward, leading to South begging off. He had a reputation of toughness, despite the clowning, so it's believable and I don't think it hurts South too much. He had the advantage, tried something underhanded, only for it not to work. There's no shame in the trying or in trying to avoid the consequences. Remember the punch hiding from before? Here's the payoff to THAT set up, and it's sort of glorious. this time, Kellett puts on the backhammer and starts to maneuver South, teasing a punch to the ribs again, the one that the ref KNEW that he had taken liberties with before but couldn't prove. By moving him around so aptly, South can't land one. Kellett on the other hand, can and does, but when he does, he also drops down, selling as if he was the one punch. South, reeling, gets admonished by the ref. They go right back to it with the same results, making sure to milk it sufficiently before both go down after Kellett's punch. This time however, the ref gives South a public warning when Kellett was the one who did the punch. The crowd eats this up as the bell rings for the end of the round. Kellett is just great here, selling the imaginary punch all the way back to his corner while trying to hide his laughter from the ref. South comes out furious, going right to another punch and a whip into the corner. He then charges in with a stomp and I thought the narrative here might have been that Kellett was going to anger South so much that he'd win the match through a DQ. South is right on top of him again, waiting for him to get up to toss him down once more, off his game and overly aggressive. He charges off the ropes, slamming him with a shoulder block. Kellett, however, bounces back through the ropes, rebounding like Nigel McGuiness/Dean Ambrose and landing a headbutt right into South's stomach. South sells it nicely, feet dangling over the ropes and, wind gone, he just can't quite make the count up, leading to the KO win for Kellett. To Kellett's credit, he makes sure to sell that last beating as his second helps him back to his corner. South recovers more quickly even in the loss. I've seen a few Kellett matches now, and I'll go back to the others soon, but this one stood out because he had a grumpy, troublemaking rulebreaker to face off against. The others I've seen had him against more likable opponents. Here, he basically got to stooge a heel, making him angrier and angrier until it all boiled over. I especially loved the strong bit of narrative in there, namely how South's post round attack led to the rib-punches in the next round, which paid off with Kellett turning that action against him later on and drawing the public warning (and that led to South's aggression in the following round, which led to him eating that rebound headbutt). Just from mentions on the board, I get the feeling that Kellett was someone that people watched more fifteen years ago than they do now, so I'd be curious to see what others think.

Admittedly, I don't personally notice it that often, even with egregious offenders. I know that I'm someone who is constantly thinking in matches, but my eyes tend to follow the kick misdirection and then I catch up a half second later, note how good the kick sound and realize that I probably should have been looking for the slap too.

I feel like we need to have a centralized thigh slapping conversation soon. I think I'd rather have well-hidden thigh slapping than legit stiff kicks.

"Bloated" would be the used to describe most of them, I think.

Watching Eddy Guerrero up close was amazing. I'll say that. I saw him on an indy show in 2001 when he was off the roster for a time, and just watching him move in the ring was something special. I'm not sure it'll affect things too much though.

Pete, Link me a couple of matches to watch.