Matt D

I want to rank Pillman. He's the most important wrestler of my youth, but maybe because of that I'm wary and I need to rewatch a lot.

Did any of his MSC matches with Brian Christopher in 93 make tape?

Johnny's nickname is "The Trippy Time Capsule" I need to really reply to this one at some point.

I'm not against Tanahashi being in on principle or anything, but I don't think it should have necessarily been so soon and I think Dave thought it was a matter-of-fact and presented it that way from the first second he could. How many of the voters are from Japan? Do we have any sense of that?

It's a system that feeds into itself, certainly, but if Dave really doesn't want someone in, they're probably not getting in. If Dave really wants someone to get in, I imagine they get in eventually. Tanahashi is a pretty good example if you want to break this down. Is there someone that Dave obviously wanted to get in that didn't get in? Or vice versa?

I sort of think it's the WON HOF and not the Pro Wrestling HOF. The WON is a very specific thing with specific views and specific criteria. Frankly, being good at MMA sort of matters within the confines of the WON. We bitch about how much he dedicates each issue to it, for instance. It's Meltzer's HOF and he sees it as connected. As for drawing, I do kind of think the defense is funny on a page where the first post on it is meltzer talking about how you can't tell whether a guy is a draw or not (at least at certain times after the territory days died off).

OJ, I sort of dipped my foot in the Joint Promotions waters with this match. I thought a lot of the action was quite good, though, especially for something seemingly so throwaway in your examination of UK wrestling. How much of it do you think was Breaks leading the 17 year old through holds and exchanges?

Business was actively down in 02-03-04 right? Anecdotally, I know I went to my only MSG show in 03 and we got great seats because they were way marked down for the show. He was on top vs Taker.

I watch TNA. May the wrestling gods be merciful. Christian vs Samoa Joe, No Surrender, 2007 I don't do star ratings but I think if I did this might hover right under 4 stars. It might even hit it. Maybe it'd make it slightly over? Okay, to hell with star ratings. Let's go with "So, this was actually pretty good," instead. The video package would have me believe there was heat, with Christian feeling that Joe cost him a title shot and Joe pissed off because Christian gave a con-chair-to to a Samoan dancer or something? Anyway, Joe came out super intense and his stuff looked great and Christian sold it like death, getting beaten around the ring and ringside area. He'd get a little flurry here or there but would get cut off immediately. Heel-in-peril works when you have a monster face, vulnerable heel, and a reason for said face to kill said heel. Eventually, Christian came back with a pretty great looking "Reverse Falling DDT" thing that was his original finisher, off the top. It felt organic and looked great, the former being more important than the later. Most of his attempts at offense were containment chinlocks, which made sense in the context of the match but weren't very exciting. The announcing was pretty good here; if anything they tried TOO hard to explain the match and get things over, which is not a complaint I'm used to having these days. It felt a bit more like psychology guesswork. Sometimes less can be more. Anyway, the heat wasn't all that drawn out or compelling but it probably wasn't supposed to be in a match like this. Christian kept whatever momentum he had coming into this by kicking out at the last second time after time after time during a far more lengthy third act. I think maybe he kicked out of one too many bombs (DVD, Powerbomb, etc) and the story would have been tighter with a bit more restraint. It all led to Joe hooking on his finisher but Christian being in the ropes and the ref breaking it up a bit too harshly, which led to Joe going nuts and killing half the locker room and trying to hang Christian before Cornette and Matt Morgan came out to stop him. The finish worked fine for me. Christian came out looking pretty good. Joe came out looking like a force. Morgan ended up looking dangerous enough to be a deterrent. Yeah, pretty good match.

My main take away from all of that is that the WON HOF is a pain in the ass.

I'd sort of like to see you do a detailed breakdown of Warrior vs Brody when it comes to this.

This is a blatant trap to have me explain how Arn Anderson's work as a Road Agent moves him up the GOAT list. I'm not falling for it.

1. Do you see this as a pattern in a lot of Casas matches? I've more or less noted the opposite. I've seen him to be almost too good at getting out of the way at various points in his career, but I haven't seen nearly enough as I've admitted before. 2. Is there any central receptacle for Arena Mexico attendance, for instance? 3. I think what I've found instead is that most matches I watch end up as good or pretty good or but few actually are as good as they should be. I'm probably more forgiving on lucha than I am for other things. Mainly, I'm saying that while few matches really live up to their potential, even in cases where they blatantly should, very many of them still live up to enough of it to be good in my eyes. Good is not great though.

Arn is a really great Matt D style wrestler. Regal is another. Tully is a possible drop for me, I'll admit it. Finlay is admittedly fresh on my mind with the Thatcher match. I almost included Taue to be funny. I was trying to make a list small enough where I couldn't be disingenuous with anyone, but there are a few guys (like Austin) I really need to revisit even in THAT list.

Yeah, if Chad will post his slam dunk guys, I will as well. Nick Bockwinkel Buddy Rose Ric Flair Jerry Lawler Arn Anderson Tully Blanchard Dustin Rhodes Steven/William Regal Fit Finlay Andre the Giant Bret Hart Ricky Steamboat Rick Martel Tito Santana Barry Windham Jim Brunzell Rey Mysterio, Jr. Bill Eadie Steve Austin Billy Robinson Terry Funk Ricky Morton Bobby Eaton Christian Satanico Hijo Del Santo Negro Casas Blue Panther El Dandy Randy Savage Eddie Guerrero Roddy Piper Mark Henry Perro Aguayo Bill Dundee 35 to his 36. Even then, I could see some of those last few guys ending up off the ballot.

Footage wise, I only have 35 guys on my list I feel really confident about. I don't count, let's say, Stan Hansen on that, because I haven't seen enough. I'm pretty certain he'll make my list, but i don't feel confident putting him on yet. I will in a year or two. On the other hand, a guy who would make my top 100 right now, like John Tenta, I don't feel confident to think he'll be on the final list. He might, but I'm not confident of that. to the point where putting in the effort right now feels futile. So i have 35 guys right now I feel pretty confident about.

We do our best. It'll probably be some functional progress from 2006. More footage is more easily available. More is known. Our best will be enough.* *I hope it will be in case I have Misawa at #76.

It's only undermining in that people respect you and your knowledge. Let me put it this way; if you can't feel confident in submitting a ballot, when you have seen way more than I have (and I've seen a lot) and will have seen even more in a few years (though kids getting a little older can slow that down, trust me), then how can I? In general, I trust your expertise over my own when it comes to most of this stuff.

There is no process without a destination. I still think we should have a one-time 3 year update though afterwards. After that, we can revisit at will.

He does spend the next few paragraphs going over "Well, what makes a draw? is it interviews? is it workrate? is it looks?" etc. but it all rings sort of hollow after the opening which basically states that Flair, Hogan, and Sting would be much bigger draws if they weren't in WCW, basically.

We had to get this out of the joshi note. I've decided to move it here. 1.) Does this hurt Casas' case to you? You basically just said that he ate up the match and hurt both the match and the feud because of it. 2.) From what I've understood, CMLL doesn't need to take risks. It doesn't need to be booked well. It doesn't need much of anything because of their revenue structure. There's no real benefit to them having agents to keep matches aimed the way they're supposed to be. 3.) I think this match bothered you because you've seen a lot of matches where the story is there and where they do build towards the payoff match. Like you said. "We all know how hot trios matches can be in the lead up to a singles match..." I think that means that lucha isn't necessarily a poor medium for great storytelling. Quite the opposite. It's a great medium. It's just that the execution rarely lives up to the inherent potential due to laziness and non-committal booking. On the other hand, there's just so much out there that you do find it and when you do, it's really enjoyable?

Meltzer on drawing in January 1995 (following a list of cards that drew over 10K):

Generally, context and selling over time. Pro wrestling is like any sort of fiction. It doesn't need to be real. It just needs to be consistent within its own universe. It has to follow its own rules. Obviously, when we're comparing wrestlers across styles, this may become a broader issue, but Cena's offense is presented a certain way, sold a certain way, and ultimately symbolic. The fans generally buy into it, even the jaded ones, because in the moment, they know it means something. Look at a match like Night of Champions 2012 - Cena vs Punk. Punk's whole gameplan is to do anything in the world to avoid Cena's offense. It worked for me because the offense has been so protected and built up over time, and because Punk was giving it so much reverence (while Cena was bringing a certain level of intensity and confidence in believing in it himself). In the end, it's going to be up to you. How something looks matters so much less than how it's used and what it means to me. I don't care how believable the special effects are in a movie that has a great plot and good acting. Other people feel differently. If you feel the way you do, that's fine. If you're just trying to understand how people can feel differently, that's fine too.

I wasn't watching and only saw people exploding. Did Rock put Rusev over?

My main take away was that he wasn't really main eventing B Shows that year but I think the tag titles might have been something of a draw on them.