Matt D

My main take away from all of that is that the WON HOF is a pain in the ass.

I'd sort of like to see you do a detailed breakdown of Warrior vs Brody when it comes to this.

This is a blatant trap to have me explain how Arn Anderson's work as a Road Agent moves him up the GOAT list. I'm not falling for it.

1. Do you see this as a pattern in a lot of Casas matches? I've more or less noted the opposite. I've seen him to be almost too good at getting out of the way at various points in his career, but I haven't seen nearly enough as I've admitted before. 2. Is there any central receptacle for Arena Mexico attendance, for instance? 3. I think what I've found instead is that most matches I watch end up as good or pretty good or but few actually are as good as they should be. I'm probably more forgiving on lucha than I am for other things. Mainly, I'm saying that while few matches really live up to their potential, even in cases where they blatantly should, very many of them still live up to enough of it to be good in my eyes. Good is not great though.

Arn is a really great Matt D style wrestler. Regal is another. Tully is a possible drop for me, I'll admit it. Finlay is admittedly fresh on my mind with the Thatcher match. I almost included Taue to be funny. I was trying to make a list small enough where I couldn't be disingenuous with anyone, but there are a few guys (like Austin) I really need to revisit even in THAT list.

Yeah, if Chad will post his slam dunk guys, I will as well. Nick Bockwinkel Buddy Rose Ric Flair Jerry Lawler Arn Anderson Tully Blanchard Dustin Rhodes Steven/William Regal Fit Finlay Andre the Giant Bret Hart Ricky Steamboat Rick Martel Tito Santana Barry Windham Jim Brunzell Rey Mysterio, Jr. Bill Eadie Steve Austin Billy Robinson Terry Funk Ricky Morton Bobby Eaton Christian Satanico Hijo Del Santo Negro Casas Blue Panther El Dandy Randy Savage Eddie Guerrero Roddy Piper Mark Henry Perro Aguayo Bill Dundee 35 to his 36. Even then, I could see some of those last few guys ending up off the ballot.

Footage wise, I only have 35 guys on my list I feel really confident about. I don't count, let's say, Stan Hansen on that, because I haven't seen enough. I'm pretty certain he'll make my list, but i don't feel confident putting him on yet. I will in a year or two. On the other hand, a guy who would make my top 100 right now, like John Tenta, I don't feel confident to think he'll be on the final list. He might, but I'm not confident of that. to the point where putting in the effort right now feels futile. So i have 35 guys right now I feel pretty confident about.

We do our best. It'll probably be some functional progress from 2006. More footage is more easily available. More is known. Our best will be enough.* *I hope it will be in case I have Misawa at #76.

It's only undermining in that people respect you and your knowledge. Let me put it this way; if you can't feel confident in submitting a ballot, when you have seen way more than I have (and I've seen a lot) and will have seen even more in a few years (though kids getting a little older can slow that down, trust me), then how can I? In general, I trust your expertise over my own when it comes to most of this stuff.

There is no process without a destination. I still think we should have a one-time 3 year update though afterwards. After that, we can revisit at will.

He does spend the next few paragraphs going over "Well, what makes a draw? is it interviews? is it workrate? is it looks?" etc. but it all rings sort of hollow after the opening which basically states that Flair, Hogan, and Sting would be much bigger draws if they weren't in WCW, basically.

We had to get this out of the joshi note. I've decided to move it here. 1.) Does this hurt Casas' case to you? You basically just said that he ate up the match and hurt both the match and the feud because of it. 2.) From what I've understood, CMLL doesn't need to take risks. It doesn't need to be booked well. It doesn't need much of anything because of their revenue structure. There's no real benefit to them having agents to keep matches aimed the way they're supposed to be. 3.) I think this match bothered you because you've seen a lot of matches where the story is there and where they do build towards the payoff match. Like you said. "We all know how hot trios matches can be in the lead up to a singles match..." I think that means that lucha isn't necessarily a poor medium for great storytelling. Quite the opposite. It's a great medium. It's just that the execution rarely lives up to the inherent potential due to laziness and non-committal booking. On the other hand, there's just so much out there that you do find it and when you do, it's really enjoyable?

Meltzer on drawing in January 1995 (following a list of cards that drew over 10K):

Generally, context and selling over time. Pro wrestling is like any sort of fiction. It doesn't need to be real. It just needs to be consistent within its own universe. It has to follow its own rules. Obviously, when we're comparing wrestlers across styles, this may become a broader issue, but Cena's offense is presented a certain way, sold a certain way, and ultimately symbolic. The fans generally buy into it, even the jaded ones, because in the moment, they know it means something. Look at a match like Night of Champions 2012 - Cena vs Punk. Punk's whole gameplan is to do anything in the world to avoid Cena's offense. It worked for me because the offense has been so protected and built up over time, and because Punk was giving it so much reverence (while Cena was bringing a certain level of intensity and confidence in believing in it himself). In the end, it's going to be up to you. How something looks matters so much less than how it's used and what it means to me. I don't care how believable the special effects are in a movie that has a great plot and good acting. Other people feel differently. If you feel the way you do, that's fine. If you're just trying to understand how people can feel differently, that's fine too.

I wasn't watching and only saw people exploding. Did Rock put Rusev over?

My main take away was that he wasn't really main eventing B Shows that year but I think the tag titles might have been something of a draw on them.

Yeah, I looked through that for a few minutes and didn't get a really good opinion one way or the other. They went on last on some shows where the real main event was in the middle and were second to the last on a lot of cards where the real main event seemed at the end. Then I bowed out by halfway through the year and posted here.

It's not totally relevant to this but since New York was brought up, I'd be curious to see an examination of his card placement in 84.

I really loathe 88 Bulldogs. Dynamite was fairly good at garnering sympathy because he was so broken down but despite that they had a really bad year of taking way too much of their matches and playing against their strengths.

This is one hell of a match. I got a bit thrown by the rudo/tecnico designation, but I think ultimately, it doesn't matter. Casas was the first one to really get aggressive with his running leap across the ring onto the leg, but Santo not having to be fit within a formula of overcoming adversity was somewhat freeing to him. He was able to bring a lot more intensity instead of sitting up out of moves and what not. The one fall structure was used very well; I don't even think they go for a pin for the first fifteen minutes. Loss is completely right on how this screwed with the conventions, but it did so in some really smart ways. The sequence of Casas hitting the corner dropkick to Santo in the tree of woe, going for La Casita, getting pushed away, going for another corner dropkick only for Santo to move and then Santo hitting the plancha was amazing. My one problem with the match was that Casas didn't sell more after Santo's super arm-breaker rocker dropper of doom thing, which was so impressive looking that they even replayed it. It didn't have to be long term selling (and he did sell the arm after the first cross arm breaker and the stuff in the ropes) but since the finish followed directly from it, it would have been nice. The rest of the selling was really great, both Santo's leg selling early on and then Casas' full body selling late in the match, including his arms draping away on the Camel Clutch attempt. Great stuff.

Did he get anything more than 2-3 minutes long? He certainly was good at inspiring crowd support in those matches and getting them behind him as they're usually based on him trying to break out of a hold. (I may or may not be serious: I don't even know anymore).

He's as good at timing cutoffs as anyone I've ever seen.

Sometime about a year from now I'll have a big post.

How much of them in the 70s do we actually have, Kevin?

What do you think of his 90-91 WWF run? The performance at Survivor Series 90, the Desert Storm matches, etc.