Matt D

I think it would be interesting if someone (Bix? Bix would be good; John works too. Eric? Chris? someone) broke down a lot of the best top babyface elevation pushes in history and how and why they worked from a booking/promotion standpoint and if any commonalities can be found and whether or not the Bryan push over the last six months or so check those boxes. Try to classify some of this.

There's been a lot flying around but I think the WON side of things is pointing towards the revenue change for PPVs due to the birth of the network.

I am back to wanting Bryan/Brie vs HHH/Steph now then, both to see Steph get comeuppance since she's the better heel and to see how Strummer would react.

I kind of love the leg slapping when throwing a kick. I also like Bret Hart stomping when punching though.

Miz was sort of the poster child of a guy they made to be exactly what they wanted him to be. That's sort of why the Miz/Bryan NXT pairing was put together.

I can see Brock taking out Christian to get into the chamber. I pretty much love it right now though.

I think that's true of any two guys in any situation though. How do you ever judge two different wrestlers when their situations are never the same? Is it all just futile and ... I don't know if I can seriously finish that. Can we just go back to where Dylan said we were both right and cut it off there before he comes back with some sort of Marxist Structure/Agency argument?

It means I'm not as good at it as no arms guy #1. That goes back to a lot of high end guy vs high end guy stuff, though. In general, I think you can learn something by seeing wrestlers in different situation, especially ones where they have a tool taken away to see if they understand pro wrestling enough to adapt to that situation. I'm not saying it's the most important thing, but it's worth paying attention to. The greatest wrestlers understand what they're doing well enough that it doesn't matter. It's all in how they use whatever tools they have in any situation. That's what I'm saying.

BUT if I can find some way to still do it without arms because I understand the craft of making valentines that damn well, then I'm awesome!

My other favorite talking point is that Arn Anderson doesn't get enough credit for John Cena's matches. I have no idea what happens when he has those video game, finsiher stealing ones though.

For what it's worth, my usual talking point isn't that but more along the lines that you really learn how good a wrestler is understanding why he was doing what he was doing when you take away some of the tools. That's in a gimmick match, or in situation where he has to work in a limited amount of time, or yeah, when he's old. It's not just age though, but different circumstances, and age is one of the more interesting ones.

There are other things to factor in, like wrestling the right match for the right crowd. Moreover, obviously the best matches are ones which have a number of great elements, but I know what I value more. It's really more my preference, but it's also sort of like a magic eye. I can let go and enjoy just about anything now and again, but I can't unsee what I've seen, you know? The genie doesn't go back into the bottle.

Working smart and doing little things is so, so, so much more impressive to me at the age I am now, to the point where I sort of look down on people who value athleticism and innovative moves and stiffness and bumping and fighting spirit or what not more. I feel bad about that, but it seems like something that we're sort of supposed to grow out of as fans in favor of storytelling and nuance and selling. Granted, a lot of those earlier things can be tools in a broader storytelling, but they're blunt tools and feel really empty to me without the rest. It's all subjective but some of it is more flashy candy and some of it is more studied and learned craftsmanship of intent. Yeah, I'm kind of a jerk. Sorry.

You don't win a pre-Wrestlemania battle royal by accident.

It's very possible I've never actually seen a KENTA match. I do remember complaining a whole lot that brainbusters weren't allowed in WWE in 2002, though, which I am terribly embarrassed about now.

I want some sort of prize. I think there's no way in hell Bryan would wrestle the Kamala match the same way now, for what it's worth.

And I think that's okay. In fact, having a long-term plan but not being so married to it that if something unexpectedly gets hot, then deviation from the plan is not an option is the mark of a good wrestling promotion. I don't disagree. I just think that the whole "WWE is working their fans!" thing might give them a bit too much credit in the set up.

Frankly, if you look at both the big picture and the little picture and all the backstage news, it's a lot clearer that they've changed directions a bunch of times and shifted gears based on ratings/buyrates/national news/what signings they could make or couldn't make/crowd reactions. It's not a straight line, but a crazed wavy pattern of doom. I can see how people who haven't been following the news/shows could think that it's all a slow build and a big plan but from those who are paying attention it's much more obvious that WWE is reactive on almost all of this, not proactive. They try to make what they feel is the best decision at each point, but how they got there is a jagged stumbling mess.

The Cesaro/Kofi match is what impresses the hell out of me.

I think we could have a megathread archive just trying to analyze Steph's mind.

I don't agree that the system improves (all of) these guys. It's a different style. If you prefer the WWE style to the indie style, then you are going to think they've improved. Exactly. I'm a fan of freedom myself. I do like the WWE style but I have seen it hurt wrestlers and matches over the years. On the other side of the coin, It is interesting to note that the WWE style is not exactly what it was even 10 yrs ago. For ex, some of what you see today would not have been allowed back than. The WWE has actually gotten more Japanese like/ indyish. Which goes back to what I was saying about change. I'm not sure I'd be happy if everything was in the 99 or 03 style. I'm also not really big on the Cena vs Rock video game style with and finisher stealing and what not but I think those matches are rarer now than they once were. I'm curious. Would anyone argue that Punk, for instance, isn't a much better wrestler now than he was when he first got to WWE or before?

We can't handle arguments over threads. Especially when they end up here of all notes.

Guy could have gotten both! Does DDP Induct?

I think it's amazing that after years, maybe decades of people hating the WWF/WWE and how they limit indy guys, pretty much everyone agrees that the system improves almost everyone multifold. Did the indies change, did the WWE change, or did we change?

It wasn't a bad rumble by any means. There were a lot of fun/good moments, more so than in most years, I'd say. The crowd was going to shit on anything that wasn't what they wanted. Actually, my biggest problem was the end. Reigns hits the spear, and then when he goes to throw Batista out, Batista just reverses the throw out. That was kind of goofy.