Matt D

So a RVD match?

In general, I'm a lot happier watching the current product when I also have other things to watch. Having the lucha set in my pocket makes my investment in WWE a lot less painful.

That's one where the meaning has sort of shifted, though, no? What's more important, a more official "correct" meaning or how something is generally used most of the time? Is it confusion or misguided reapprobation? I'm with you in that the origin is important to know.

I think we all agree that it's fair more likely that Trips puts Bryan over in a match which doesn't put him over at all than him going over Bryan. The question then is whether or not Daniel Bryan is a good enough wrestler to get himself over in a match like that.

I loved the dueling limbwork in the main event. Both guys sold very well.

Twenty two minutes away from where Darren Young is from. They're strapping the rocket to him! What a swerve.

There are some things that Quack said that I really agree with, especially the idea that Wrestling should have more to do with a novel (he said fiction. I say novel) than MMA, and that the fictional elements need to be stressed in order to create the greatest narrative possible. That's basically the main thing it has over sports. You control the act breaks, the climax, the ending. You can bring in any number of tropes and use foreshadowing and only have twists where you want them. With real sports, the narrative is sort of retrofitted. It always has to be reactive to what really happens, and yeah, while most times it will feel more organic because it's real, it's not always more compelling just because it's more organic. My gut says that Quack takes this to another extreme and plays up.. crap, I hate doing this. Look, in the interview he brings up Watchmen, right? The big fallacy with Watchman, the bit trap that everyone's fallen into for decades is that people focus too much on the plot of Watchmen. The deconstruction and paranoia and gloom, and that's what they copy and are inspired by, when the real meaningfulness of Watchmen and the real innovation are in the narrative tools used. It's the same as Citizen Kane. Sure the plot's great, but it's HOW the movie was made that matters. Quack focuses too much on the plot elements, the what, and not the how. If he had used a more traditional storyline but tried to utilize new methods of storytelling, I think it would be more focused, narratively compelling, and ultimately more innovative. A lot of the more abstract elements just distract from what I think he's actually claiming to try to do.

These two were in response to other reviews on DVDVR, but I cleaned out some of the references to post them here. Triple H vs Chris Jericho -Last Man Standing Match Fully Loaded 2000. I think the video package before the match is really well done. I don't remember too much of this stuff, to be honest, but one of the knocks against Hunter in general is that he didn't "make" too many people, and I realize at the time the entire internet was enamored with Jericho due to his 98 WCW run, so the idea that someone had to "make" him was probably considered absurd, but that's exactly what Hunter did in this build. This was set up with Jericho getting one over on him three times before he fell into the numbers game and a Horseman-Style Beatdown. From the looks of it, it was really, really good pro wrestling and allowed for the escalation that made a Last Man Standing match necessary. Hunter let himself be humiliated in order to get Jericho over as a fiery worldbeater, and it worked. Jericho brought real fire to the opening stretch and all of the stuff on the outside looked good. The fans completely buy it. If I had any critiques on him they'd be that the mounted punches on the inside were pretty weak and I would have loved to see some selling of the injury after the flying back elbow off the top, especially since that came right before Hunter started on the ribs. That could have been a really great overzealous moment leading to the transition. As for Hunter here, I think he was good at fighting back just enough. I didn't like his clothesline bumps at all. They looked terrible but he more than made up for it on the bump to the outside and the super stylized bump from the shoulder thrust into the ring. Hunter should have worked a loaded knee gimmick since so much of his offense is centered around that. Anyway, a lot of the match is centered around the rib-work. It was set up so well in the angle leading up to the match. The transition is pretty awesome as Hunter uses his usual reversal to the back body drop but does it to the ribs instead. They tease a little hope spot of Jericho immediately fighting back, but then Hunter drops him right on the rail and then the stairs and he doesn't really look back. His kicks on the inside are vicious. His shoulder thrusts are good. The image of Hunter rolling Jericho around the ring with the tape is pretty memorable. When it comes to bodypart work it's all about keeping it interesting and believable by the person on offense and the selling by the person taking it. Hunter does a pretty good job of varying what he's doing (stomps, knee drops, kicks, knee lifts, the thrusts, the abdominal stretch w/ clubbering, etc), breaking it up a little bit with gimmicks (the tape choking, and the Stephanie slap, the suplex on the floor, grabbing the rope on the abdominal stretch, the ref pushing). I think maybe there are too many gimmicks actually. Jericho does a solid job selling the pain. He's no Ricky Morton but he has both the story to lean on and the fans behind him. He has a decent amount of hope spots that are logical (generally based off of him getting enough space due to rolling into the ring or Hunter arguing with the ref) and okay but really not milked enough to really get the fans really into them. Hunter's cut offs are good though, especially the lionsault counter. I don't think he executed the Stretch well at all but it almost didn't matter too much since it still looked painful on the midsection. It was noticeably weird however. The bodyscissors during the sleeper is extremely smart and plays into both the story of the match and the LMS gimmick (Steph doing the Daniel Bryan YES hand motions at each count is great). Then we shift into WWE storytelling mode. The key stretch is when Jericho gets up post Sleeper/Body-scissors and shows defiance leading into the super-mean Pedigree and then Jericho getting up again. There are parts of this I like: just how mean the Pedigree is, the crotch chop, Hunter hanging out on the corner arrogantly, Steph being pissed off during the post-Pedigree where she was jubilant on the post-sleeper one. Obviously the getting up from the Sleeper is a tease for the real moment, Jericho getting up from the Pedigree, but I think it might have worked better if he was in it for longer. The one major issue so far is that we haven't had enough time with Jericho in pain. Hunter's two submissions were ones that covered up his face and Jericho's body language hasn't quite been up to task. Anyway, I don't think he quite nails the "getting up at 9" moment with the right body language either. He's just sort of meandering towards the ropes as Hunter rushes out of the ring pissed off to get the chair that he kills Jericho with. We needed some blood out of Jericho's mouth or something here. Were they leading to some sort of ref strike gimmick or something? I forget. It seems weird that arguing with the ref in a NO DQ match would lead to two Jericho comebacks, including the big one; maybe if it was a special ref but whatever. Jericho's low blow is really good for what it's worth. Very glad he went with that and not just a double leg takedown or back body drop. Jericho's chairshot on Hunter is huge, right in the middle of the ring with a giant noise. It had to be big enough to completely turn the match around and I think they frame it well Jericho sells excellently on his comeback and it lets Hunter almost get back in it a few times which is really good stuff. I think Jericho's offense is okay but sort of out of touch for the point of the match they're in. This isn't the part of the match where you want to see so much light, flying stuff, if that makes sense, even if it's done onto a chair. There's a bit of meandering once Hunter takes a powder too, until we get the slightly contrived ribs (execution issue. There wasn't the sense of Hunter aiming him) into the steps spot. I like the consistency of Hunter trying to Pedigree Jericho on hard objects and this time the backdrop works and Hunter takes a big bump off the stairs. The double video monitor shot is pretty silly but it works for a double tease. I kind of like how they entered the match into an environment where the Spanish announce table was already busted. Anyway, they head back into the ring and we get the Walls and the visual tap. I feel like Jericho needed more offense in his comeback to get to this point, to be honest. He had that one stretch but other than the chairshot I wasn't super happy with it. Hunter's shouting and body language is actually extremely effective here as was the rope stuff. We get the big Steph moment to break it, another mini rib transition which sets up the missed sledge hammer spot and I don't totally love how all this is laid out but I do like the high concept at least. It goes back to the over-gimmicked nature of the earlier part of the match. I think that comes into play here too. There are almost too many "moments." It starts diluting everything. Jericho gets to get up from the Pedigree, gets the tap, gets Step, gets a sledgehammer shot in (though one that's ultimately meaningless). etc. And what was up with that kind of lame suplex finish? I think after the two attempts to hit a Pedigree on something, he should have just finished it with one on the table. Alright, I think that Hunter did a lot of good work here and Jericho mostly held his own but both guys' had flaws (micro and macro) that hurt the match. I especially liked Hunter's bodypart focus. Very strong middle section. That said, I think the match was a little too clever for its own good when it could have been tighter and more primal with only a few changes. I'd call it bloated but with a lot of strong elements that didn't fully come together. I had come in thinking I'd be bored by Hunter's offense and that wasn't the case at all, though he did make some choices I didn't totally agree with. No, if anything the problem was big picture excess. It was still a pretty interesting match. Hunter vs Rikishi - Smackdown 1/4/2000 Fink sounded so earnestly excited announcing Rikishi out of the rigged lottery and all the faces are chanting his name. It's not just Rikishi at this point but Rikishi Phatu. He has Too Cool leave from the start and it makes it all seem a little more special for some reason. Hunter's entrance has become so much of a parody of itself, culminating in the peeing-himself moment from a few months ago, that it's easy to forget how primal and potent it was in 2000. Hunter is Bockwinkelish in his gameplan attacking in the corner and i agree it was a good start. It makes him seem potent and dangerous and in doing so, it make Rikishi seem all the more of a force in coming back immediately. I don't know about a legdrop on the outside in the first minute of the match. I think other guys (Show/Henry, for instance) might have taken that stairs shot more spectacularly. He really does throw himself into the announce table, etc, though. Hunter has to keep shifting his offense as Rikishi is just too much for him. He goes for a pin after the knee-counter on the back body drop which I've never seen before, but I think he just wants to get out of there despite his aggression. He's wrestling this as desperate but not chickenshit. This is the opposite of Jericho match which was very focused for the most part. This is a vulnerable heel champion match and Trips is no Tully. Nothing Hunter does through most of this is particularly smart, but that can be played up with him not being prepared (And in fact being actively surprised) and also his exhaustion post Big Show. The end result is that Kish ends up looking like a million bucks. I didn't love the banzai drop kick out but only because it didn't look particularly believable. It might have been a camera angle thing. Steph actually does a great job as a distraction, giving the chair to Hunter and then running around the ring to distract the ref. The kick out afterwards is what makes the match as the fans explode. I've never seen a heel get an asshole chant after getting himself disqualified like that before and that's an lement of the crowds from the era but it's also proof positive of how the match was effective. I've seen this match better a bunch of times, but I would put a check mark on the "Good Year" category for Hunter here. The match did exactly what it was supposed to do; Rikishi came out looking better and it elevated him a ton and the Hunter-Steph pairing came out looking almost as strong as before for surviving it under the circumstances.

If I had to decide between going to Mania or the Raw after, I'd probably pick the Raw after. That's not just this year but in general right now.

It's looking like a stacked show with Ziggler/Kofi vs Ambrose/Reigns, Bray vs Goldust, Sheamus vs Ryback, Bryan vs Cesaro and Christian vs Orton.

You really ought to watch the Miz series too if you're looking for Cesaro miracle matches. Stacey might be kind enough to grab those dates for you too since I haven't the first idea.

To extrapolate a bit, when I spent my year in London ten years ago, I spent a lot of time at the British Museum. I was getting a Masters at the London School of Economics and while we had a brand new, spiffy, award winning Norman Foster designed library there, it was a pain in the ass to study at. The elevator was always crowded. The stairs were designed in a way that you were always going up with the same foot, annoyingly so, and there was no real private study space like I was used to. Moreover, it was too far away. I lived in the heart of the city, in a dorm, but it was a fifteen minute walk, at least. A five minute walk, on the other hand, was the British Museum, and within the British Museum was the Reading Room, just opened to the public a few years earlier, with hundred and fifty year old chairs and tables that Oscar Wilde and Karl Marx had studied a century before. I did most of my studying there that year, so I spent a lot of time in the Museum. During that time, they opened the Enlightenment gallery, which so far as exhibits go, isn't nearly as interesting as some of those of less modern design. It falls along the cultural history lines in a lot of ways, which means it's a little of a lot instead of a lot of a little, but it does really give you a sense of categorization and organization being the first step in our history of scientific understanding. Budding amateur scientists would collect bugs or birds or skeletons or mammals and add them to their personal collections, finding the commonalities and the differences and document everything and search for patterns and theory why the exist or why they don't exist, and everything sort of tumbled from that. Sometimes I feel like that's what we do. As for a kindle book, I don't know, there's such a mentality of outsiders not knowing anything in wrestling and there's so much variation in terms and meaning and etymology (and the carny roots that make up the etymology of wrestling are fascinating, not just about things like heat and marks and what not, but something like Full Nelson or pronouncing su-plex vs su-play, etc), it seems like it'd be a lot of work. Fun work, but still. Maybe someday. I am going to be breaking down a couple of Dustin's comeback matches for a friend's magazine in the next month or two as part of a broader article, and I might try to see if I can do so in some way that's deeply analytical. Or I might totally fail to finish the thing. If someone wanted to walk me through the nuts and bolts of how writing a book for kindle worked, I'd probably listen.

Some of this is tricky, because a sprint can be a match but it also can be a section of a match with a lot of rope-running. Heat can be the section of a match where the heel is on top and the babyface is garnering sympathy, but that can also be face in peril. Generally, a face-in-peril only works in a tag match, building to a hot tag but a heat segment can be in any match. At the same time, the heat can be the actual emotion of the crowd itself, angered at the heel. Or it can be a legitimate dislike between two wrestlers, or that one wrestler has with the locker room/crowd. Base, I personally use most to describe a hold or series of holds targetting a specific bodypart or telling a specific story that wrestlers go back to in structuring a match. A lot of times you can have a match where a lot of the meat of it is based around working in and out of a headlock, or in WWF matches, a chinlock. USUALLY it's found in the first part of the match, because if in the middle, that'd really be more likely to be a heat segment. So again, tricky. And yeah, a base could also be a wrestler who a second, flying wrestler can work against and that can catch all of his moves and make his logically low impact flippy stuff look good. I love classification. Deconstructing matches is so underdeveloped as a field that it's like the Enlightenment whenever we try, in that a lot of what we can do is try to classify, qualify, and quantify common elements between matches.

How do they feel about HHH?

Per WON, in May, 1994: I'm trying to decide if the person reporting this was confused, outright lying or if Flair actually did cut a promo at the disney tapings mentioning Mr. Perfect for the Clash.

I still don't love the scenario where he's defending against Hunter at Mania. I think it means more if he either wins the belt at Mania or at least wins a shot. It matters more for a babyface to win something than to retain it.

Frankly, this is all speculation across the board. Something is different. Or it isn't. The demographic change may matter. Or it may not. To me, the people who stick around week in and week out are the ones who are the loyal fans, the base that they can't alienate no matter what. My gut says that there are a number in that group who are kids and a number who are really casual and just watch it every Monday because it's part of their routine but that a huge chunk of the people Vince simply can't run off are tuned in enough to know this. I haven't the slightest idea though. I think we need to find some casual fans and poll them. Anyone know any? I sure don't. Frankly, there's not really anyone in my life that I interact with that isn't a hardcore fan of SOMETHING.

There are a lot of factors there (including being on smackdown with the taped nature of the show and certain things inherent with DX and nostalgia). Frankly, though. I don't know. I missed a lot of the first half of that and frankly don't remember a ton of the back half. That such things are happening now make me think that we have a demographic change in general, maybe even one that WWE has created with their push for social media? If they want to create a more active, tuned in audience base, then they might end up with a more informed and harder to control one as well? All these are just thoughts. I'd love if someone like Chris was able to find more demographic data somehow and map some of this stuff out.

His most recent babyface run? The fans sure as hell didn't want to give him the standing ovation after the Brock match that it was obvious he was supposed to get.

If a random fan in the crowd that wants to be heard and I see Trips and Steph do the yes chants, I'm probably more likely to chant CM Punk, maybe?

I think WWE is a little more niche than that. I also think that the younger fans are more tuned in by nature. Almost every person I know under the age of 35 that's into sports connect to it differently than the people I know over 50 who are into sports.

At least 27.3%. It's 2014. Teenagers/college kids who follow wrestling do so on the internet/twitter too. That's one side effect of all the social media stuff. I refuse to believe that all those people who are tweeting enough to make WWE trend or whatever else don't know about the reputation. This isn't 1999 with just a bunch of nerds like us using the internet and reading scoops and 1wrestling or whatever. Enough people were talking about Matt Hardy on facebook a few days ago that it was trending. Matt Hardy, not The Rock or someone. This is a totally different world.

I thought Dave's indication was that they actively moved the venue to Seattle from wherever it initially was, or at the least that they planned for it to be there long term. So the push came first and Seattle was the means, after the reaction he got there last time. It wasn't just that they happened to be in Seattle for the PPV already?

Wouldn't it be more the case that the plans weren't there to alter in the first place?