Matt D

The problem with this is that I think it misinterprets what wrestling is. If you're saying that someone should be able to compensate for diminished athleticism by working smarter, you're assuming that wrestling is mainly a mental activity. But it's mainly a physical one. With that said, I wouldn't discount matches after one's prime entirely, but I view them as roughly equivalent to bonus questions on a test. They can't count against you, only for you. But I wouldn't take them into account for head-to-head comparison purposes unless I thought their primes were close to equal. I disagree. It's an artform, not a sport. It's one that involves athleticism, but don't you think that there is an argument that psychology matters more than execution? That it's a valid opinion at least? It might not be yours, and that's fine. To me, though, if someone doesn't have a good enough grasp on it to compensate when they can't rely on physicality then that's a negative mark against someone who does, in a direct comparison of two wrestlers on the highest of levels.

I know this isn't what anyone is saying, but I still feel that it's partially true. When arguing on as high a level as GOAT, isn't this true? If you can't adapt to different limitations, isn't that some sign that you are not as good, in some ways, as a wrestler that can? It'd be one thing if no wrestler could manage that, but some people understood their craft well enough to manage it. And yes, that's a plus to them, but when we're directly comparing one wrestler that managed it and one wrestler that didn't, isn't that a minus for the other wrestler as well? They didn't GET wrestling as well as the first.

WWC is like the magic wrestling genie. So many random matches.

So, Bossman or Dibiase in WWF? More good matches? More great matches? Better worker? Who has what?

So we grade on a curve when comparing bodies of work after all?

If you pick apart the little things he does, I think Bossman might be better in his WWF matches too. I honestly believe this is a strong possibility after watching a lot of matches.

Just pretend Dylan is the Monstahhh Meng.

You shouldn't. I don't think Dibiase has ever had a WWF match that's been pimped in our circles as much as Bossman/Barbarian and I'm not even sure that's his best WWF match.

Are you on the windup Matt? I have no windup truck.

I'd argue that Bossman has better matches in WWF than Dibiase does. He probably has better matches with Hogan, there's the Barbarian PPV match. Twin Towers vs Demos series is better than all but maybe the top top end Money Inc vs Nasties or Natural Disasters matches (and i feel like we don't have most of the latter on tape). He has a few really good matches with Earthquake in 91-92.

To deal with the last point, I think a lot of people here go out of their way to avoid those pitfalls of just being fed up, and they try to overcome such things, especially in comparisons. If I say I think Wrestler X is better than Wrestler Y, then I don't want you to think that's just because I'm bored with Wrestler Y and Wrestler X is new to me, basically. Yes, that may be a human instinct, but I think people do a pretty good job of fighting that and backing up their opinions here. As for the rest, I think the traits that we like in the old wrestlers we like are also ones we gravitate towards in today's wrestlers, and a lot of the time we go out of our way to find those traits where we can. Dylan, for instance, just reviewed that House of Hardcore show and found a ton of stuff to like, and it'd fall along a lot of the same lines that he has in his like for Buddy Rose or whoever else. I think, maybe, you're generalizing too much.

If you had to choose between the two, I meant. Obviously, quite often the best situations involve both, but I think working smart without working hard is valued far more now than it used to be, and working hard without working smart is valued a lot less than ten years ago.

No. Just no. There are a lot of reasons for it, a bunch, and we've talked about it more and more, but there's been a trend of appreciating working smart over working hard over the last five years. That's not just dissatisfaction and it's not just "a type of veteran appreciation." It's part of why people liked Mark Henry or Chris Masters as well. It's not just old people. It's part of a completely different trend than you're talking about. And that trend has its pros and cons and its causes and reasons, but I really, truly don't think it's what you're saying. People consistently pull out specific examples. They pull out specific matches. They break things down. They back up what they say. It's not just some whimsy. It's not just some whim. People support their arguments. They make arguments in the first place. People are backing up what they're saying all over the place, both in dismantling some things and building up others. You can't dismiss it like that because it fits into some nice little box and thus is easy to ignore.

Too bad the story was very much likely bullshit and Corino recanted it completely. Do people assume any wrestling stories are true? Only ones about Andre pissing on people in the dark.

I'd say Ted is hurt more by the "Big Events Only" window than Windham is.

I'm trying to slowly fill in my Funk gap. So let's see. Terry Funk vs Rick Martel WWC 9/20/1986 This is the second round of some tournament. Funky's goofy as hell to begin, arguing with the ref, trying to slap Martel, skittering around the ring. Martel's doing phantom knee drops to the middle of the ring like Flair. Funk's goofing about fake boxing. So far as stalling goes, this is entertaining. And I love the boxing stuff back out of Martel since I've never seen him do it. Super over the top babyface act as Funk stumbles about the ring and then shimmers around the apron with the brander behind his back. Funk gets the surprise advantage (which is the point of stalling) but then crotches himself ont he top. Martel STILL sells the slam for a second because he's that good. Meanwhile Funk is throwing chairs into the fourth row of the outside stadium crowd and this is pretty awesome. They go in, do a few things and Funk ends up draped over the top rope pantsed. After a minute of that, Funk goes for the handshake. Martel's mannerisms are great here. He's outright disgusted. Top wrist lock into the corner with a clean, hilariously patting breka by Funk. Martel is so good at working on top of a headlock and Funk's just as good as selling it. And this is great. Funk is using the clean breaks to build up trust so it matters more when he actually does the cheapshot. Martel's spinning headlock is great. And Funk puts his finger in his ear looking for wax after the second of the rope breaks off the headlock. Then he gets a headlock of his own and HA! Mule kick to the groin in it behind the ref's back. Pile driver out on the grass. Tossing a cup at him and stomping. Great stuff. That's one of most beautiful transitions I've ever seen. Martel sells well on the outside, flailing and stumbling. Funk uses first a sleeper and then a wire and he works the motions of hiding it into his chinlock/choke perfectly. Martel fights out in the corner, chokes him, gets a sleeper of his own on and they topple over the top rope. Then Funk ends up with achair around his head and gets pile driven. This has some feel of the early comedy but the violence has escalated so it's not funny anymore so much as a huge spectacle. Poor Martel misses his slingshot in (like always). Funk bypases him out and the announcers shout Terry Funk, el magnifico lunchador loco or something like that and you believe them. Funk reverses a sunset flip in, grabs the ropes, and that's the match. Funks vs Can-Am Connection - AJPW - Nov-Dec 86 I think this is what I'm watching at least. If I'm wrong, someone can tell me. What's cool is that the same two guys start out completely differently. Handshake. Lots of rope running, armdrags, etc. And another handshake for good measure as Terry tags Dory in. Martel and Dory have a fun little exchange with Martel powering out of an abdominal stretch by grabbing the hand and then hitting a quick roll up. They give Zenk a little moment where he holds the ropes to avoid a double team. There's a storyline sense that the Funks respect Martel more than Zenk, but there's a lightning quick dodge of an elbow between Terry and Tom. When Martel comes in, he has a different intensity, as if he's pissed off by the way they were treating his partner, clubbers a bit uncharacteristically and then snaps on a stretch of his own. Dory breaks it up and Zenk runs in, overzealous and the ref counts it as a tag. Terry gets Zenk immediately into the corner and they start working over him. It's fun how the feel of this match changed from the beginning. They cut off the ring, and keep tossing him out. Funks keeps on brutalizing Zenk first with a huge atomic drop outside the ring and then with suplexes and a piledriver as Martel gets more pissed off, even running Terry off at one point. The Funks are just a machine here, hitting one big move after the next. Zenk gets kickouts and a hope roll up or sunset flip but gets cut off as he goes for the corner. This is really solid stuff. Dory starts on the spinning toe hold and I like how he keeps having to push Zenk down, only to eat a roll through that allows for the hot tag. Martel comes in pissed off and just clears house. Oh, this is great. First he did that Stretch because they did it to Zenk and now he gives Terry a HUGE atomic drop on the outside since he did that to Zenk. REALLY smart and heated stuff. That's the most heated atomic drop I've ever seen. Funk dashes in and out of the ring trying to get away from Martel and it's this frenetic but contained burst. Funk stays in the ropes and offers the hand again in a great call back to the beginning of the match but Martel is pissed off. I THINK the crowd is chanting Martel. He finally takes the hand and lets Dory tag in. They do a clean break but Terry is lurking on the outside. The story at this point, to me, is that they came in, three former world champions and one young kid. And Martel got pissed off when they started taking advantage of his partner, and Terry, desperate, tried to calm him down by appealing to their mutual respect. Except for now, they feel like he's not quite in the same club or on the same page as them anymore, so they're just waiting to get him from behind. It's pretty compelling and pretty complex actually. Then finally, Terry tries it in the corner but Martel is ready and starts fighting back huge. He tags in Zenk who hits a sloppy flying body press. Dory breaks it up. Things break down. They hit a double drop kick on Dory knocking him out of the ring and then on Terry. Zenk hits a sunset flip on Funk, Dory and Martel start brawling and Funk reverses it with the best over the top leverage pin you'll ever see. Great, great match. I loved it.

Someone can argue this but wrestling is an art as much as a sport and Baseball isn't (not that there aren't elements of psychology in baseball but this is a totally different conversation). I think we can learn, in part, just how good someone is by seeing what they can (and do) do when they can't rely on physicality. How well they can control a crowd. How good their timing is. If they are talented enough to figure out a way to work around it. By watching what they do and why they do it. I am amicable to the idea that it can do more good for a wrestler to have a great post-peak than harm a wrestler that has a poor post peak. But again, as always, to me what's more interesting is the why of it, not necessarily the binary Y or N. Why can Lawler still control a crowd at his age? How does he do it. How can he have a great match with a math teacher at age whatever, you know?

Being great into your 50s means you really GET it. You get wrestling. When the physical tools aren't what they were, the ability to still be great is one of those things I think might be the real sign of a great wrestler. At least by my criteria.

Hennig/Hall is worse

The last few pages are great. That was a hell of a post, Dylan. I think we know where I fall here. I get the feeling that Loss is trying to find Truth, almost like PWO over the last few months has been part of a great experiment to come up with that GOAT, and really, what's interesting isn't the answer, isn't the destination, but the journey, and figuring out the why behind these great matches. I absolutely think that Great Matches are a factor. Even numerically, but it's just a factor. There doesn't have to be only one. We can come up with more inclusive ways. It can be a starting point, but even then, if we're trying to learn and understand and really gauge, then it makes sense to look at how wrestlers dealt with multiple things. Not just their great matches but all sorts of matches and situations. Personally,I think it's important to look at situations within situations. But that's me and I get that. I just don't think Great Matches have to be an end all. Why can't we look at that AND other things. Is it harder to quantify? Sure, but wrestling is an art form. Also, I love the microscope. Love it. I'm not always up to watching a bunch of matches of one guy in a row, but I Can watch a Murdoch match tomorrow, a Funk match the next day, a Regal match the next, and some random thing from PR the next, and there's room to discuss all of them and leave them out there for the next person who watches that match to comment on. I'm excited about that.

I have a feeling, Matt, if you and me were given two competent wrestlers, a finish and a timeframe to do it in, we could lay out an excellent match between them, provided we had the time and resources we need. That still doesn't mean it would be any good. The skeleton of a good match may shine through, but it may still have major flaws because of the limitations of the wrestlers. By the way, when you come into massive amounts of wealth wealth, we will do this. The finish will be the heel being unable to hit his finisher due to limb work set up in the first part of the match. The WON Message Board will hate it.

What confines do you have in baking a cake? Still, I'll amend my statement since it was obviously unclear due to pronouns and there is a further element. If a wrestler has the best match that someone could reasonably have within certain confines consistently over time, he's a great wrestler. Also, the job of a wrestler can vary from match to match. It is not always to have a five star classic.

A wrestler goes out there to do a job. If he does it well, he's a great wrestler. If a wrestler has the best match he can have within certain confines, he's a great wrestler. If you watch a wrestler enough, you can see what he does well or doesn't do well. Obviously some jobs are harder than others. Having 30 minutes to wrestle a match in a main event presents different challenges than having ten minutes to wrestle a match with agents breathing down your throat. I'm not saying that I think Mike Jackson is a better wrestler than Ric Flair, but I'm willing to hear the argument if someone wanted to make it.

What does a wrestler do within those confines? Jerry Lawler had a ton of great matches doing nothing but punching people. Unless you say that using a DDT or other head-droppy moves is an essential part of being a good wrestler. And I know you don't feel that way. They had limitations. Absolutely. What matters isn't that they had limitations but what they did with those limitations. A great wrestler can work past them and do compelling things. Does it mean they're less likely to have great matches, absolutely, but I don't see how that makes them any less of a great wrestler. They just were dealing with different confines. And I think you can see this if you analyze their work, what they do in every single situation.

I don't think the "take pride in their craft" argument has anything to do with what we're talking about. Alternatively, you can judge a wrestler on the micro, not the macro. And I think that this is one very strong argument to do so.