Matt D

I haven't seen a ton of early 70s Bock so this should be fun. I haven't seen a ton of Bastien either. From the get go we get that manic Bock from the Verne match on the set. Bock is great during the shine, reaching for Robinson through the ropes. It seemed completely unplanned in a way that a lot of those knee to the back off the rope spots don't. Bock getting trapped in the criss cross was a great spot. Super fun shine. His hand motions while backpeddling away from Robinson are really cool and the way Bock keeps retreating to the corner is absolutely dickish. Robinson is a lot of fun to watch. Did Bastien do that head bob off all three ropes things in every match? Because it's neat but it could get old. And the Robinson dropkick knocking Stevens right into Bastien. Cool stuff. I was starting to feel like it was a bit too much go go go without selling about this point but Stevens really sells the beautiful butterfly suplex. The heels finally really take over and Bockwinkel taunting Bastien amazingly so that Stevens can assault Robinson is just so masterfully done. So dickish. He takes one for the team trying it the second time, and we're definitely into FIP territory. This match is a shitload of fun. The hope segments are just gritty and organic. Bock's really good on the outside waking Stevens up. It adds a lot to the hot tag. Bastien does his flip out of the back body drop and Stevens sells huge for him giving us a really manic end of fall. Bock's sell of the double chop is great. You wonder how the body can move that way if he's not really getting hit. The double Teeter-Totter spot is a lot of fun. I don't think I've ever seen it done twice here. I love that Bock's fans have their own name. What 70s heel had a fan club? Bock and Stevens control the ring well. At one point, they're just chucking Robinson around the ring. Robinson's little spots and counters add a lot to his comebacks. The set up for the hot tag was good with Bock trying to get the pile driver on and the finishing segment was quick and effective. It was the sort of thing that would go too quickly in a one fall match but worked really great here. This is a match well worth watching. Bockwinkel vs Ernie Ladd October 1978. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjz6WJGAtA This has no sound and sort of radioactive VQ. It's super clipped too but let's see what we have. Bock starts out playing super chickenshit vs the monster, diving out of the ring repeatedly. Post clip we have Bock selling Ladd's bearhug like death and then his shoulder thrusts like more death. They just go one and on until Bock flops. He's getting maueld here and bumping/selling huge. This makes the 1980 selling by Verne look minor by comparison. Finally he attacks Ladd from outside, slamming the leg over and over into the ring apron, before starting to dismantle the fallen giant. Ladd reverses it into a body scissors and Bock flails like he's dying again. This is actually a really cool segment, the fight over the leg lock with Ladd using big leverage moves. Eventually Bock slams the leg a few hundred times more on the apron. Back inside, I really like Bock's almost desperate strikes on Ladd's leg. It has a real feeling of Andre, where you knew one TOUCH by Andre could change everything. Ladd comes back with kicks of his own and then some big punches. Bock's great in trying to fight back even though it's futile. Ladd gets to show off his agility (no longer selling the leg, mind you) and hit some big shoulder blocks and then Bock says fuck it, escapes outside and comes back in to choke the life out of Ladd manically. I guess it's not a choke since the ref is counting a pin out of it, but it's definitely maniacal. Ladd does a nice spasming sell of it before lifting his arm up on three. Ah, it's some sort of crazy nerve hold, which Ladd finally swats away in a great visual before putting on Bock himself, lifting him up first inside the ring and then on the apron with Bock on the inside, which causes him to get counted out. The clipping is interesting since it turns it almost into a "Good parts only" match. But from what i see, it's fun and Bock vs Monster is not something we get to see often.

Immediately, I like Bock's headscissors. I like how he put it on, really seeming to have to work to stretch his leg over Buck's head, and then how he keeps putting the pressure on and turning onto his side. Zumhoffe sells it really well, actually. Bock does some really cool things with his hands to keep the hold on. The work the hope spots smartly and Bock cuts them off really effectively. I love Bock going to the forearm strike the second that Buck manages to get a counter on him, but that just wakes Buck up as Bockwinkel is jawing with the ref, and the plucky babyface gets to take over with some really mean looking armwork. This includes a really cool hammerlock whip that I'm not sure I've seen before,but it's a bit too cool and flashy because it lets Bock take back over with another cheapshot. Bock's no nonsense on offense just driving his head into the turnbuckles and kicking away. We get an end match transition as Buck reverses a whip into the corner and unleashes a quick flurry, but Bock holds on to the ropes to dropkick and just dismantles him with HUGE kneedrops to the back of Buck's skull and the pile driver to put him away. I agree with Dylan. Bock gave Buck just enough to make Zumhoffe look pretty good without making himself look like a chump and then took back over and sealed the deal in an utterly definitive way. That's what he did. HOW he did it was interesting and compelling. To his credit, Buck brought his usual goofy energy and wasn't boring in the least. Great little studio match.

if you count pre and post match then Sheamus vs Bryan may well be a great match in a current WM environment.

Excuse me then. Great matches tell stories.

Hart to Hart. Diesel's Truck Stop The Polo Grounds Afa's Tiki Bar Luna's Salon That Crazy Alley Where Slick Turned the One Man Gang Into Akeem This is a horrible idea for a note!

Ok, so this note http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=15302) was basically me vs the board on my feelings, until it became this weird, goofy thing about soccer (with some great JvK vs Loss subtext about whether a midget could beat someone up or something) but.. Instead of quoting a lot of stuff, I will sum up in a few paragraphs for the sake of everyone's sanity. At the end of this it still might make sense. If that's the case, I'm sorry. It's hard to explain why you like art sometimes, I guess. Here's my attempt. What matters to me the most is that if you pick out a move in a match, the move means something. It makes sense. It fits into a narrative. That a wrestler is telling a story with every second of every match. That I think the wrestler always knows what they're doing and what they're doing has meaning and weight. That's basic. That's the bare minimum. If you don't do that, you're not going to be a really great wrestler in my mind no matter how much action you put in your matches, or even how much the crowd is into things. From there, to be really great, you have to build stuff between acts in a match, between moments in a match. Your transitions have to make sense. You have to sell what's happened beleivably so that it ultimately has meaning. To be good, you have to be telling a story at all times. To be great, that story has to be well put together and compelling. A wrestling match is like a novel, not like a sporting event. It's fiction. That's its strength and what makes it better than any artificially sportswritten narrative overlaid upon a sporting event could almost ever be. The best wrestlers are crafting it at every moment. That doesn't mean they have the whole thing planned out. So long as everything is sold, and the selling matters and so long as things are built upon and reacted to in logical ways, it works. Those watching just have to be able to connect the dots without too many extraneous parts. I point out more specific things elsewhere. But that's the sum of it for me. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?act=...amp;pid=5529146 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5524467 Finally, I will say this: To hell with great matches. What matters to me is watching a ton of a wrestler in a ton of situations and seeing how he handles a specific situation over time. To see whether or not he gets it. What matters isn't whether or not a match is great, but whether every single thing a wrestler does is great.

To me, Hansen/Hennig wasn't even about wanting to see Hennig win the title. It was about the timing of it. It was about them building to a more frustrating (to the fans) final moment. A mad dash to beat down the champ while he was trying to get a solid win to put this kid in his place. A build to a moment where Hennig REALLY had him only to have it snatched away due to the time limit. I know Hennig couldn't really do his second rope dropkick in the confines of what they were working, but I didn't think anything that happened at the end there could have put Hansen away, and I needed that, especially at the end.

Listening to the Wrestling Culture podcast, I'll amend my statement somewhat. I think Bret's better in ring. I think there are people better than Bret in ring. I don't think Flair's one of them. Flair's a better WON HOF candidate. Bret does the things that I care about in wrestling far, far better than Flair. I think other people do that better. Flair's not one of them. If you ask me "WHO IS BETTER?" I say Bret. Because I care about what I care about wrestling, not what you care about wrestling. That's not subjectivity in the way that we've been talking about. It's not a favorite thing. It's honestly what I think is more important in a wrestler. It's not just what I like more. That said, if i was going on the consensus of PWO, as best as I can figure out, and certainly on the terms of the podcast I just heard, Flair wins over Bret on GOAT on those specific standards. That said, I am never, ever arguing about GOAT on this board, especially not on its general standards. At best I'm arguing "greatest I feel like I can competently argue about on my standards." But I do think I frame every argument I make, or I try to. I think I explain what I'm talking about as much as anyone else on the site. And if people don't want to argue along those lines, that's fine. We can make our points separately and people can either find them interesting or not. I go half way when I can. I shut up when I can't.

A match tells a story. If they can tell a complete, meaningful story in that time then there's no reason it can't be great.

If the draw had been set up just a little better in that Hansen vs Hennig match, it probably would have made my top ten for the entire 80s for the AWA. I know Dylan has it high. So... A great match is a great match. If a match can both use and overcome the limitations of that sort of time limit, then it's a great match.

Neither here nor thre, I actually really love Lawler on commentary in 93. The Magistrator is often hilarious and he had really good chemistry with Vince and Savage. Don't get me wrong: The heel color guy in Superstars is its own thing. You have a role that's completely different than getting over the psychology and excitement in longer matches. He was very well suited for that role, though. Funk's Grill is the best interview segment out of the three, though. I love slumming Arn on the stool in Flair for the Gold, but that doesn't make it effective or anything. I think my favorite Funk's Grill is the one with Missy Hyatt.

With the holiday I had completely forgotten Raw was even on.

Reality exists. I've explained myself more than enough on this. There are both summed up links and a big project if anyone is interested and wants to contest me on my very clear, very specific talking points (and no one ever does, so... yeah). Meanwhile, I'm glad to review shitty British Bulldogs matches where Dynamite takes way too much offense if you want though and am actively looking forward to watching a bunch of Killer Bees matches at some point after seeing Brunzell on the AWA set. And someday I shall see random Montreal tag work!

I was saying that to Dylan a week or two ago. This place has been great lately.

I feel like I've said everything possible to be said. So I'm mostly bowing out here. I like the 88 Demos/Rockers match more than more of the Brainbusters/Rockers series. It's funny. Michaels credits Arn and Tully for teaching him that if you don't have a very dominant babyface shine, you can actually get more heat sometime, but there's a lot of heel-in-peril there. I think the Busters/Young Stallions match that made the DVDVR list is actively terrible. The Demos/Stallions match isn't much better though. Right now the only WWF ARN/TULLY stuff that I'm really interested in rewatching is vs Luke and Butch. I think there might be something to learn there even if they hated being programmed with them. If you're comparing entire bodies of works, Arn/Tully win. If you're comparing WWF only work, I'm not sure. Here's everything I had to say in the long Demos thread in five posts. I literally have nothing else to say First Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5508971 Second Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5510741 Third Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5510906 Last Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5510935 Top Ten: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5511368

Bock is being reevaluated not due to some sort of whim or fad but because a lot of people have watched a lot of Bock they've either never seen before or never seen all at once before. I feel like Race already went through a "being watched" stretch like that a few years ago and the end result was the current prevailing "Race as Angle" mindset, that probably is a bit harsh, but not entirely unwarranted either. That came from something, namely people watching matches. It'd take another bunch of matches that people hadn't seen being assembled in one place for a lot of people to watch or at least a general shift in our community's mindset as viewers to create another reevaluation of Harley, I think.

Unfortunately, my best Bock reply is a Vs Flair one, and I understand that I have certain disputed points in my Flair pov that I'm not yet ready to confront. I'll say more in a few days, certainly, and I'll pick out matches like Dylan is doing and gladly at that. I'll say this: I've seen even more Bockwinkel since then and I feel even more strongly about the things I think he did well.

I hate that cage match. The bloodbath is a real contender for my #1 however.

I love Solie/Dusty and Cruise/Dusty from 95 Prime. I love 91-92 Mooney/Hayes, because Lord Alfred had started to lose it a bit and he'd be a really snarky and grumpy heel type figure out of the blue in the most amazing ways, like hating High Energy's pants. I kind of liked Matthews/Striker on ECW but I didn't like Striker when he got moved up to the big leagues probably due to how he was produced. I really loved Tony/Heyman on WCW Power Hour in 91 and Tony/Larry on WCW Pro Chicago. But my favorite is Monsoon/Johnny Polo. Levy just had a way of stymieing Monsoon that was hilarious.

I am not a fan

Well, there's your first problem.

95% of the audience don't watch wrestling like we do.

So if you have a big moveset it can all look like crap? Also, how big a moveset did guys have in 1990-92 WWF, really?

I thought the exact opposite actually, and enjoyed the contrast on the show between the two monsters. Vader was really all about athleticism, quickness, with lot of spots and quick shots, bumping a lot (his detractors would say too much and too easily), while Tenta was much more traditionnal in his approach, kinda like a more offensive minded version of the One Man Gang, with tons of percussion spots (hey, he's a former sumo), a mix of deliberate style with a few heavy spots, and milking the hell out of his bumps (not as much as OMG, but much more than Vader). Anyway, I enjoyed it quite a bit, although his matches with Savage are even better. That's actually one of my favorite talking points ever. Because Sting vs Avalanche was one of the big matches later in the night, Vader works a completely different match with Duggan than he might have otherwise. It's a perfect example of how you have to think, at least a little, about card placement when you're trying to really understand and analyze a match. It's really true. That's another comparison to Henry. Everything he does looks huge and believable and super solid.