Matt D

Reality exists. I've explained myself more than enough on this. There are both summed up links and a big project if anyone is interested and wants to contest me on my very clear, very specific talking points (and no one ever does, so... yeah). Meanwhile, I'm glad to review shitty British Bulldogs matches where Dynamite takes way too much offense if you want though and am actively looking forward to watching a bunch of Killer Bees matches at some point after seeing Brunzell on the AWA set. And someday I shall see random Montreal tag work!

I was saying that to Dylan a week or two ago. This place has been great lately.

I feel like I've said everything possible to be said. So I'm mostly bowing out here. I like the 88 Demos/Rockers match more than more of the Brainbusters/Rockers series. It's funny. Michaels credits Arn and Tully for teaching him that if you don't have a very dominant babyface shine, you can actually get more heat sometime, but there's a lot of heel-in-peril there. I think the Busters/Young Stallions match that made the DVDVR list is actively terrible. The Demos/Stallions match isn't much better though. Right now the only WWF ARN/TULLY stuff that I'm really interested in rewatching is vs Luke and Butch. I think there might be something to learn there even if they hated being programmed with them. If you're comparing entire bodies of works, Arn/Tully win. If you're comparing WWF only work, I'm not sure. Here's everything I had to say in the long Demos thread in five posts. I literally have nothing else to say First Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5508971 Second Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5510741 Third Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5510906 Last Word: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5510935 Top Ten: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5511368

Bock is being reevaluated not due to some sort of whim or fad but because a lot of people have watched a lot of Bock they've either never seen before or never seen all at once before. I feel like Race already went through a "being watched" stretch like that a few years ago and the end result was the current prevailing "Race as Angle" mindset, that probably is a bit harsh, but not entirely unwarranted either. That came from something, namely people watching matches. It'd take another bunch of matches that people hadn't seen being assembled in one place for a lot of people to watch or at least a general shift in our community's mindset as viewers to create another reevaluation of Harley, I think.

Unfortunately, my best Bock reply is a Vs Flair one, and I understand that I have certain disputed points in my Flair pov that I'm not yet ready to confront. I'll say more in a few days, certainly, and I'll pick out matches like Dylan is doing and gladly at that. I'll say this: I've seen even more Bockwinkel since then and I feel even more strongly about the things I think he did well.

I hate that cage match. The bloodbath is a real contender for my #1 however.

I love Solie/Dusty and Cruise/Dusty from 95 Prime. I love 91-92 Mooney/Hayes, because Lord Alfred had started to lose it a bit and he'd be a really snarky and grumpy heel type figure out of the blue in the most amazing ways, like hating High Energy's pants. I kind of liked Matthews/Striker on ECW but I didn't like Striker when he got moved up to the big leagues probably due to how he was produced. I really loved Tony/Heyman on WCW Power Hour in 91 and Tony/Larry on WCW Pro Chicago. But my favorite is Monsoon/Johnny Polo. Levy just had a way of stymieing Monsoon that was hilarious.

I am not a fan

Well, there's your first problem.

95% of the audience don't watch wrestling like we do.

So if you have a big moveset it can all look like crap? Also, how big a moveset did guys have in 1990-92 WWF, really?

I thought the exact opposite actually, and enjoyed the contrast on the show between the two monsters. Vader was really all about athleticism, quickness, with lot of spots and quick shots, bumping a lot (his detractors would say too much and too easily), while Tenta was much more traditionnal in his approach, kinda like a more offensive minded version of the One Man Gang, with tons of percussion spots (hey, he's a former sumo), a mix of deliberate style with a few heavy spots, and milking the hell out of his bumps (not as much as OMG, but much more than Vader). Anyway, I enjoyed it quite a bit, although his matches with Savage are even better. That's actually one of my favorite talking points ever. Because Sting vs Avalanche was one of the big matches later in the night, Vader works a completely different match with Duggan than he might have otherwise. It's a perfect example of how you have to think, at least a little, about card placement when you're trying to really understand and analyze a match. It's really true. That's another comparison to Henry. Everything he does looks huge and believable and super solid.

Ok, one thing that I think I never get across well is this. Bret does his moves, yes, but HOW and WHEN and WHY he does them is different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmwQQfbamKY Bret/Owen vs Well Dunn in the lead up to Survivor Series 93. He does the inverted atomic drop/clothesline combo, yes, but he does it after catching his opponent on a leapfrog off the ropes. I've seen a bunch of Bret matches and that's not usually how he sets it up. It was during a back and forth part of a shine. He hits the backbreaker/second rope elbow/sharpshooter in succession but he hits the backbreaker off the rope instead of just lifting the guy up like he often does. And the elbow leads right to the sharpshooter which isn't usually how he sets it up even in a lot of his squashes. It works, because that backbreaker is part of his house of fire hot tag, clearing house and as such it rolls right into the finish. He mixes things up to fit the match. Not the what, but the how and the why.

Jerome's going through them anyway. He's doing this so we don't have to.

Tenta has a few matches with Bossman in 90-91 and most are quite good. Honestly, I think Natural Disasters are wildly underrated. Watch Disasters vs Beverly Brothers from Summerslam 92. I think it really might be the best match on the card no matter how crazy that sounds. I'll delve more into the results later. He's got the best Elbow Drop ever though. It's world destroying. I think you can make a real comparison between Tenta and Mark Henry when it comes to ring presence and knowing how much and when to give and when to eat an opponent up and I kind of want to force Dylan or Tom to do that.

Ha. It could have been Rick Bassman.

Oh man, now I want to figure out what the best Beefcake in WCW match is. I bet he has a decent one with DDP.

He really gave his opponents a ton of offense though. It wasn't just having a short match or a match where he didn't bump or sell.

Gilbert has the personal connection, which is the trickiest part with this to me. I honestly would have ended the angle with the Starrcade match and had Sting crush him and go over huge. They'd had it as a focus for months by that point. But yeah, you could have transitioned Gilbert into a manager role and given him Hansen and the Master Blasters and run Hansen vs Sting. My long version is a lot more elaborate and involves Gilbert getting beaten to a pulp only for Windham to switch places with him and win the match leading to a Horsemen schism.

It's like how the only match we have (that I know about) from the later Dibiase/El Matador feud in Dec 91-Jan 92 is the CV one with the manager Cam on Sherri the whole time. Now it's actually sort of entertaining especially when she begs off on Tito and goes "I ALWAYS LIKED YOU!" but it's sure as hell not a match.

I think Savage has a slew of interacting matches in 92-93 WWF, though. I don't know if he thought he was getting the other guy over by giving him almost all of the offense or what? The worst I can think of is a Savage vs Buck match. Buck attacks him before the bell. Beats on him for a few minutes. Savage dodges a move, bodyslams him, hits the elbow.

Most of the Pittman matches I was going to use for it have been taken off of youtube ages ago or are private now. I had a pretty good list at some point.

Savage has so many of those in 95-96. You see a match and get excited because it's Savage vs someone interesting and that's what you get.

I still feel guilty that i never did that Craig Pittman project.