Matt D

They do everything right, while dealing with extreme confines that many of the other teams on this list probably wouldn't be able to deal with nearly as well, getting over to a large degree, both as faces and as heels, and putting forth a diverse range of matches where they can work as bullying heels, chickenshit heels, dominating faces, even-stevens faces, underdog faces, and blisteringly pissed off faces (see Brainbusters matches). And they do all of this while changing up the when and the how of what they do on an almost nightly basis, even against the same opponents, which is the one thing in wrestling that almost no one does regularly. I will say this about Demolition. They have good matches, yes, but they really shine when you look at their body of work as a whole. There are a number of wrestlers where that's the exact opposite or where problems start to creep in when you look at the body of work.

I don't want you to subscribe to critical orthodoxy, but it's nice to be on the same page. You linked to an argument that was almost completely moveset based, and that's just been seconded. The things Demolition did well, in bullet point format: Match structure: Both in variety and logical storytelling. Everything makes sense to a level that's almost absurd. If they do something in the ring (especially Ax, but by 88 Smash is pretty much there too) there is a reason for it. Nothing is done for the sake of doing it. Moreover, they change up their matches so frequently, even against the same opponents. There's no simple formula. The transitions are different. Playing their role: They make their opponents work for everything, but they also give exactly when they should give and exactly how much. This is why the heel-in-peril reasoning doesn't apply. Opponents even have to work their asses off to keep the armwork early on that's almost a given in 90% of all tag matches of the era(no matter where you are). And when it comes time to beg off or to do that arm work themselves (the 88 Harts match and Twin Towers series respectively), they do it. They have different matches with different opponents and look at how they turn up the steam in that Rockers match. I think that some of it was really protecting their characters, but they were giving too. Making their opponents better only made them look better as well either in a win or a loss. Timing: One thing they always made their opponents work for was the hot tag. It almost never came immediately after the first babyface comeback or exactly where you'd think it would come in anyone else's tag match. It lingered a few spots later and rose in intensity and heat because of that. They knew when to take over and end the shine sequences. They knew when to allow for babyface hope spots. They knew when to slow things down and when to go to the crowd. They knew when to tag and when not to. Doing so much with so little: They had relatively short matches. They had a very small moveset, though that just makes it all the more striking when Smash kicks out the Hotshot or what have you. But they make everything that they do matter and every second that they have worth something. If they're putting a neckvice on someone, it's not just a rest hold. There's a narrative reason for it within the match, and they're likely doing something else, as well, to engage the crowd alongside it. Obviously, some of this is subjective. People have different tastes, but I can at least recognize when something's done well, even if it doesn't hit my particular tastes (hell, I did that earlier in the posts where I admitted that Smothers' SMW promos were effective. They just weren't for me). The Demolition project came up organically. I watched a bunch of matches in chronological order amidst other things of the time and they really stood out to me and surprised me because I had a "Demolition = plodding and boring" preconception. Then I watched a whole bunch in a row and I was blown away. We started to see the patterns and we started to break down the matches to figure out exactly what made them tick. And there are absolutely patterns.

Neither here nor there, but I love the Hayes/Garvin Freebirds vs Dynamic Dudes match (which I think is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn6S-NmjPTU) because the crowd was so anti-Dudes that they were cheering with Hayes, and 1989 Michael P.S. Hayes loved nothing more than the crowd cheering for him and he was eating it up in the most hilarious way. I'm also partial to Freebirds + Badstreet vs Young Pistols + Dustin from the dreaded GAB 91, since that was the only tape I had at all as a kid, and it cut off in the middle of Sting vs Nikita so the fact that it's the best match on the card that I had puts it in a special nostalgic place. I also had a WCW magazine where they explained how Precious was actually the business manger for the Freebirds behind the scenes. (re: Demolition and childhood memories, since it came up, I started watching WWF in Oct of 1990 as a kid, so the only Demos I really knew as a kid were Smash/Crush and I hated them for being plodding since again, narrow-minded view).

The Southern Boys were really good and all but the Young Pistols, after the heel turn, were AMAZING. One reason I can't get myself to watch much SMW Smothers is because of the face turn where he turns his back on that run and embraces his podunk roots or whatever. Not for me. You are insane. The Tracy pre-tapes begging forgiveness for falling for big city scheming are incredible. Also Smothers was incredible in the ring in SMW. The best run of his career probably. I'm not insane. I'm just too much of a Nothern carpetbagger or something, I think. I don't doubt for a second that he wasn't awesome in SMW or awesome in that role. It just offends my sensibilities or something. Thankfully later in his career he comes to his senses and appeals to my Italian roots.

The Southern Boys were really good and all but the Young Pistols, after the heel turn, were AMAZING. One reason I can't get myself to watch much SMW Smothers is because of the face turn where he turns his back on that run and embraces his podunk roots or whatever. Not for me.

Unfortunately there is a dearth of great Orient Express matches, at least taped. There are the Rockers matches and the New Foundation match. The Demolition match is pretty weirdly laid out if I remember right. The Hart foundation match that aired is a glorified squash. The Power and Glory match isn't nearly as cool as it sounds. The MSG Haku and Barbarian vs Orient Express match turns out to be Kato and Fuji vs Barbarian and Haku, which is a damn shame. The Six man vs Kerry/Steamboat/Bulldog is a squash. The Rockers + Virgil vs Orient Express + Fuji match isn't very good. Like with PG-13, they had a very entertaining squash with The Roadies from memory. The big problem with the Orient Express is that by the time they came on the scene the aired Boston Garden/Philly Spectrum/MLG matches were already over and done with. It means we lose out at least four or five Rockers matches (one of which I was at live as a kid, I think), a couple of handicaps w/Fuji vs LOD, and some Bushwhackers matches which I actually wouldn't have minded seeing and a Shane Douglas/Marty Jannetty vs OX match. Actually, the 7/17/90 Rockers vs Orient Express MLG match made one of the "HOTTEST MATCHES" tapes. I wonder if I've ever seen that. OH! by all means, DO watch the Barbarian/Haku vs Fuji/Kato match though. Not a good match but it has some really neat and rare Heenan/Fuji stuff. I think it was set up the month before with Fuji guest managing the Barbarian or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZIeW9XOyZw

Unfortunately there is a dearth of great Orient Express matches, at least taped. There are the Rockers matches and the New Foundation match. The Demolition match is pretty weirdly laid out if I remember right. The Hart foundation match that aired is a glorified squash. The Power and Glory match isn't nearly as cool as it sounds. The MSG Haku and Barbarian vs Orient Express match turns out to be Kato and Fuji vs Barbarian and Haku, which is a damn shame. The Six man vs Kerry/Steamboat/Bulldog is a squash. The Rockers + Virgil vs Orient Express + Fuji match isn't very good.

Look. Actually watch the matches and see how they're laid out. That they could do so much with such a limited arsenal of moves is absolutely amazing and is a point FOR them, not against them. That they changed up the matches that they were wrestling almost every single time out, even against the same opponents is mindblowing. Instead of just outright no-selling like people remember them doing, they instead made their opponents work for everything they got out of them and the end result makes for astoundingly logical matches. Here, if you can stomach dailymotion (protip: use firefox with the proper combination of ad and script blockers), we've got a ton of matches all set for you to watch. We did the work for you in finding them. http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.php?showtopic=51663 Also, the Colossal Connection is one of the best WWF teams ever from their body of work. (granted, they only have a few Demos matches, a few squashes, and the Rockers match but still. Broken down Andre was the single smartest worker of all time). As for great Demolition matches. The 88 MSG Rockers match, the Twin Towers series, 88 Summerslam vs Harts, the MSG Colossal Connection match, and the Brain Busters series all have matches I'd consider great, especially considering the time constraints. Some of the Bulldogs matches are really good too. And for the most part, the heel-in-peril stuff doesn't happen much with Demos (save for maybe some of the longer Bulldogs matches) due to the aforementioned making their opponents work for everything.

I would say that sometimes the WWF had extended shine periods for their babyfaces or alternatively shorter heat periods on the face-in-peril than other places but some of that is an illusion due to the shorter match times in general. Some of it was giving the Northeastern fans what they wanted. I don't think it's quite as over the top as some people indicate.

I'm just a little baffled that you're here, trying to have a conversation with everyone, and using moveset as not just a argument, but as a primary reason to like or dislike a body of work. In 2011. Here. That's all. When I was 9, I thought that Hogan was TERRIBLE because he only punched and bodyslammed people. And then when on the UNREAL History of Professional Wrestling on A&E when Bruno or someone made that exact same comment, I felt so vindicated. Now, I like to think I look at things a little more openly. Moreover, I actually read the back and forths here. They're great. It's a great sight, and that's the last argument I'd make around here, because I'd look like a complete and utter ass in making it. As for late-career arguments, I think that they can really only help a wrestler/team in a situation like this. What you can do in a match after you can't resort to physical shortcuts says a lot about how good of a wrestler you are. But then I always put a lot more stock in working smart than working hard.

I may be biased but Bill Eadie is a god damn superworker.

I'm 29 and past an unhealthy amount of nostalgia for the year 1991 tend to skew young and clueless.

I read the Flair comments as him being a little jealous (or maybe envious, more than jealous) that Macho could have lived another 600 years while he's having issues, and then shrugging it off and going "oh well, I'm the Nature boy."

The second bit I believe. Him forcing Angelo into the WCW HOF in 95 is rumored to be one of the reasons Solie distanced himself from WCW (not that it particularly mattered at that point).

In the build to this match, they made it seem like it was the first time that Hennig and Lawler were going at each other since the AWA Title changed. Which was maddening since Hennig was in earlier in the year.

For what it's worth, Andre/Hogan is a fairly smartly laid out match. Andre may have been hurting but his timing and body language was frigging amazing in his late run. (But then I'm the guy who thinks that Warrior/Andre SNME is a great match too).

Re: Taker. I SWEAR to you that they added Paul Bearer to his act because he was too scary. Brother Love as his manager added to the package in a different way and just scared the shit out of kids. You can just see it on their faces in the crowd. When Percy came in, WAY WAY over the top, it made it all seem more cartoony and easier to accept.

From the loads of shoot mp3s I've heard, it depends. Is Rip Rogers teaching you or not?

I feel like Lawler had to do his very best to rationalize his WWF actions, where he wasn't just a heel but a smarmy annoying cowardly heel, but thankfully Lawler's best is quite considerable.

What did he say wrong? Dont you think too much moaning by a rich millionaire? It seems he's always been up front about hating the travel and being in the public eye and that's why he quit. Hell, in UFC he doesn't talk to his boss for months on end. He maintains such a secluded lifestyle that he had no idea who Chael Sonnen was when asked. But do you think he knows who the Beatles and Bo Jackson are?

Funny, I popped in a DVD the other day and both of those thoughts were going through my head. How hot Beth was. And how Stevens as the modern day Jimmy Garvin with two valets would seem perfect for RAW. Stevens was me and my college pals absolute favorite indy wrestler in 2000. We'd go to actually quite bad indy shows specifically to laugh our heads off at his antics. How he had the pointless WWE run he did (and if he gets called up as Damien Sandow, will probably have another) is beyond me.

Storyline-wise, the trickiest part of that feud is figuring out if they were all in on it together from the get go or if not when they decided to reunite and screw Sting, because there was some pretty heated stuff at the beginning.

I'll say this. I wasn't really into wrestling at this point. I had fallen off in mid 92, but as a kid, this was still a big deal.

Dave was amusing on Observer Radio saying "God damn that's scary" at the prospect of Christian vs. Mark Henry main events, despite Christian being as good as he is. I can see that from a drawing perspective, but that's the single feud I want the most in the WWE right now I think. Christian had one-two (tops) matches with Zeke but he really wasn't fighting too many monsters in 09 during his incredible TV Title-esque run. Christian is so great at adapting and rearranging and teasing his spots and I can just imagine what he'd do against Henry and what Henry could do with him.

And he did.