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Gabe vs The Torch on Dragon Gate USA


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Personally I don't know anyone who subscribes to PWTorch and doesn't listen to Bruce Mitchell's audio show but if there is they should have listen of part 1 this week. Nothing ground breaking but he takes on DGUSA in his own analytical style tackling why DGUSA isn't growing by looking at marketing shows almost strictly on star ratings and selling a different version of the same thing match/moves wise also looking the star rating system of analysis in general.

 

Essentially is this really a compelling case from the WO Daily Update for ordering a show :

Don't forget tonight's Dragon Gate USA PPV on most cable and satellite providers. There's a great **** six-man, two DGUSA singles matches in the ***1/2 range, and nothing below *** on the entire show. If you like fun pro-wrestling it's certainly worth the sub-$20 PPV price.

Compare that to Final Battle even with the storyline driven top three matches.

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Personally I don't know anyone who subscribes to PWTorch and doesn't listen to Bruce Mitchell's audio show but if there is they should have listen of part 1 this week. Nothing ground breaking but he takes on DGUSA in his own analytical style tackling why DGUSA isn't growing by looking at marketing shows almost strictly on star ratings and selling a different version of the same thing match/moves wise also looking the star rating system of analysis in general.

 

Essentially is this really a compelling case from the WO Daily Update for ordering a show :

Don't forget tonight's Dragon Gate USA PPV on most cable and satellite providers. There's a great **** six-man, two DGUSA singles matches in the ***1/2 range, and nothing below *** on the entire show. If you like fun pro-wrestling it's certainly worth the sub-$20 PPV price.

Compare that to Final Battle even with the storyline driven top three matches.

 

Keller just put this up for free due to the Facebook war that Gabe started:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/PWTorch...cle_46623.shtml

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I'm sure Gabe understands the need to have more storylines. But when you're working within the confines of a Dragon Gate - U.S. affiliate, there's naturally going to be some challenges. Like the fact that none of your main stars speak English. So you first have to satisfy the niche that loves the DG "This is awesome" style in order to make any money, and try to slowly grow your characters from there, which is what they seem to be doing. I personally can't watch the DGUSA stuff, but I understand the challenges and what they're trying to do.

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I'm sure Gabe understands the need to have more storylines. But when you're working within the confines of a Dragon Gate - U.S. affiliate, there's naturally going to be some challenges. Like the fact that none of your main stars speak English. So you first have to satisfy the niche that loves the DG "This is awesome" style in order to make any money, and try to slowly grow your characters from there, which is what they seem to be doing. I personally can't watch the DGUSA stuff, but I understand the challenges and what they're trying to do.

Part of the problem is that it's a bit late now to start thinking of storylines when you've already lost your fanbase and thus mustn't be satisfying that niche well enough:

 

Show 1 Philadelpha: 785 paid, over 800 in the building

Show 2 Chicago: 550 fans

Show 3 Philadelphia: 550 fans

Show 4 Chicago: 450 fans

Shows 5, 6 Phoenix: 450 fans, 500 fans (roughly half of what ROH drew)

Shows 7, 8 Ontario: 200 fans, 500 fans

Show 9 Philadelphia: 800 fans (up for Danielson's return)

Shows 10, 11 Chicago/Milwaukee: (500 fans, 200 fans sold out, even with Danielson)

Shows 12, 13 MA/NJ: Both shows drew 250-300 fans

 

Part of the problem was building around indy guys that you haven't got under contract and them leaving at short notice (like Danielson, Generation Me and Davey Richards). Part of the problem is that most of Sapolsky's storylines and other attempts to attract fans outside their niche haven't been all that good and some have been tone deaf (like Kendrick "shooting" on the mic in show 3, bringing in Tommy Dreamer, the insertion of Americans into the Dragon Gate factions have been convoluted and ham fisted, etc). Part of the problem is pushing local indy guys so hard, when ticket prices are jacked up compared to other indies. Part of the problem is that for a company that markets itself on star ratings, they haven't delivered enough of them, as they haven't produced a match that was pimped as a MOTYC for quite some time.

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I don't disagree with any of the problems you've listed. The promotion has been a mess. I don't really like the DG style so I haven't seen anything since going to the WM weekend shows, but it doesn't sound like anything too compelling has happened storyline-wise. Part of the problem is also that the amount of talent on the indies has dried up, and ROH still gets a lot of the better talent available. It's a heck of a concept to try to make work in today's environment.

 

My point was just that I think Gabe understands the limitations of the "this is awesome" style of promoting wrestling. He moved ROH into a more storyline-driven format in 2004 when RF was driven out, which is when I started to enjoy the promotion. But there are limitations in running a Dragon Gate affiliate, and you almost have to push star ratings and workrate considering who your headliners are.

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My point was just that I think Gabe understands the limitations of the "this is awesome" style of promoting wrestling. He moved ROH into a more storyline-driven format in 2004 when RF was driven out, which is when I started to enjoy the promotion. But there are limitations in running a Dragon Gate affiliate, and you almost have to push star ratings and workrate considering who your headliners are.

I'm not really sure he does understand the limitations though. Not when looking at DG USA coupled with the whole EVOLVE thing which was supposed to be super serious wrestling based off win/loss records.
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I'm surprised that more people haven't figured out what DGUSA really is by this point. It's just another Gabe fed with Gabe's boys, along with a handful of DG names to appeal to the DG fanboys. It's really no different than when Vince restarted ECW in 2006, it was WWE through and through, but with the ECW name and some familiar ECW faces to appeal to the orignal ECW fans.

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I thought it was pretty much exposed when guys who were booking their own stuff left ROH that Gabe really wasn't capable of coming up with very many compelling storylines. Individual 5-star matches, definitely. Angles/storylines that make people want to buy tickets and DVDs, not so much.

 

I'll admit I didn't read all of the Facebook slappyfight, but it appears Gabe got butthurt over Mitchell pointing out what you would think would be the obvious.

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I thought it was pretty much exposed when guys who were booking their own stuff left ROH that Gabe really wasn't capable of coming up with very many compelling storylines. Individual 5-star matches, definitely. Angles/storylines that make people want to buy tickets and DVDs, not so much.

I always heard that guys were booking their own stuff in ROH, and yet everyone lost that ability for some reason when Pearce took over.

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I thought it was pretty much exposed when guys who were booking their own stuff left ROH that Gabe really wasn't capable of coming up with very many compelling storylines. Individual 5-star matches, definitely. Angles/storylines that make people want to buy tickets and DVDs, not so much.

I always heard that guys were booking their own stuff in ROH, and yet everyone lost that ability for some reason when Pearce took over.

 

 

Maybe because Pearce wanted to book like ROH was a 70s NWA territory?

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I thought it was pretty much exposed when guys who were booking their own stuff left ROH that Gabe really wasn't capable of coming up with very many compelling storylines. Individual 5-star matches, definitely. Angles/storylines that make people want to buy tickets and DVDs, not so much.

I always heard that guys were booking their own stuff in ROH, and yet everyone lost that ability for some reason when Pearce took over.

 

 

Maybe because Pearce wanted to book like ROH was a 70s NWA territory?

 

Pearce said on Colt's podcast that he has no idea what 70's wrestling is and has no idea where that rumour came from.

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I thought it was pretty much exposed when guys who were booking their own stuff left ROH that Gabe really wasn't capable of coming up with very many compelling storylines. Individual 5-star matches, definitely. Angles/storylines that make people want to buy tickets and DVDs, not so much.

I always heard that guys were booking their own stuff in ROH, and yet everyone lost that ability for some reason when Pearce took over.

 

 

Maybe because Pearce wanted to book like ROH was a 70s NWA territory?

 

Pearce said on Colt's podcast that he has no idea what 70's wrestling is and has no idea where that rumour came from.

 

And if he did, he'd have known it looked nothing like what he was actually booking in ROH.

 

As for everyone losing the ability to book their own stuff in ROH when Pearce took over, perhaps Pearce wasn't as amenable to that as Gabe was. Or maybe the roster's creative well was starting to run dry. The last 6-9 months of Gabe's tenure was pretty dull booking-wise.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Amusing feedback to the first of three DGUSA iPPVs this weekend:

 

Bryan interviews Gabe this week and said that Heyman chewed him out for relying on the same tricks that he's used in the past, i.e. stable wars. Gabe said this was going to motivate to him to have some balls this week with the booking, so how did he have some balls? by booking this show as if were a late 90s ECW ppv. One match ends, another guy comes out then bam!! another match, match ends, guy comes out, cuts promo, bam!! another match. ad nauseum. I guess I expected something better. Who knows? this is the first show of three, maybe by the end of the weekend, I'll be praising his genius but right now a bit disappointed.

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But stable wars has been part of Japanese wrestling forever, is actually the focus on Dragon Gate, and thus makes sense to be a focus. Gabe can't do heel turns with the DG guys, and the shows are too infrequent to have intricate angles that the fans care about. Not sure what Gabe is supposed to do.

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But stable wars has been part of Japanese wrestling forever, is actually the focus on Dragon Gate, and thus makes sense to be a focus. Gabe can't do heel turns with the DG guys, and the shows are too infrequent to have intricate angles that the fans care about. Not sure what Gabe is supposed to do.

I imagine he'll do the same thing he's always done, just follow the DG storylines and angles and act like it's always been that way. It was cool when Shingo was in the middle of the whole CIMA/Doi feud in 2007 and teamed with both of them on back to back ROH shows. But it's just annoying now WARRIORS are babyfaces on one show, but heels on the next called Blood Warriors and we're all supposed to just accept it.

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