WON Awards for 2011

[rovert]

Like I said Bix it is hard to pin down and isolate why people like what they like I was just giving factors most of which were my experience. Part of it is "we" "got" Puro 10-15 years after you guys in the States after being "teased" from sources from Powerslam to the WCW crusierweight division. But mainly people just like what they like.

 

I really dont know why more people dont watch Lucha or why comparatively why Alan's threads on F4W get more attention that say KrisZs do. Not a foriegn commentary issue nor isnt that huge of a leap style wise from Dragon Gate for a fair amount of it.

 

If you want to talk about Alan yes he doesnt watch Lucha to any great degree but he does watch tonnes of old Japan via Dave Ditch's awesome archive. I dont see Alan as this major taste maker you are making him out to be if anything he takes shit even from his friends online for being in their view hyperbolic or being too generous with his snowflakes. I dont know why he has become a hobby horse for you recently.

[Ditch]

It's fascinating that Alan is so wildly divisive while at the same time being friendly and positive about almost everything. Typically someone is controversial by having strong positive AND negative opinions/actions.

 

I don't see how Alan is more a driver of the pro-DG-style movement than Meltzer, regardless of how many boards he's on. WON star ratings are exponentially more influential. And at least in Alan's case, I'm able to give the "stop watching Dragon Gate and watch more early-decade NOAH" alternative on a WON audio show.

 

All that said, I share the confusion over why Davey Richards, Prince Devitt and Shingo Takagi are suddenly all the rage. Perhaps part of it is that for people looking for MOTYCs, you have:

-WWE, where the wrestling is generally competent but rarely hits that 'next gear'

-Lucha, which lots of people ignore altogether

-TNA (lol)

-US Indies, where the most hyped matches tend to be in the DG-style mold

-Dragon Gate

-Lackluster Japanese heavyweight promotions

-Japanese indies, which also tend to lack that 'next gear'. No matter how much I think that Big Japan has the best heavyweight-style wrestling in Japan, I still wouldn't call it exceptional.

 

Since Dragon Gate and wrestlers in that mileu are the ones who come across as fresh and are able to excite crowds, there's an attraction. Plus they're doing the most cool moves, the most "epic" finishes, etc. And if it makes sense, even though I think a match like Strong vs Richards isn't quality pro wrestling, it makes more sense on a MOTYC list than a match I much prefer like some small show Big Japan tag that hits the right notes but is more 'competent' than 'jaw-dropping'.

 

It would be much easier to make the case against Dragon Gate if there were a lot of easy alternatives to point to. But there aren't.

 

On a side note, to smkelly: Kondo vs Marufuji was a 'dream match' between people in different promotions. Somewhat hard to do a slow build there, though I agree with the 'they did too much' sentiment.

[Bix]

In the US, we never really "officially" got Japanese wrestling like you guys did on TWC for a few years. It was ALWAYS bootlegs, and the most popular stuff here was inevitably converted to PAL and made its way to Europe. Bob Barnett was regularly making Japan TV comps and had a conversion VCR as long as I've known him. IIRC, Rob Butcher was the main trader with a conversion VCR in the UK and he got plenty. Plus, I'm not sure when it started, but PAL VCRs were able to play back NTSC tapes pretty well by the late '90s.

 

Even if it was a matter of downloads, YouTube, etc since it's free and even if someone wanted to buy tapes or DVDs, there was extra shipping, why is it only the last few years? The HQ downloads go back at least a few years before the rise of the current group.

[Ditch]

If anything, shows were popping up faster and more reliably in good quality three years ago than they do now.

 

Maybe it has to do with DGUSA, doing shows in Europe, and directly appealing to western audiences?

[rovert]

In the US, we never really "officially" got Japanese wrestling like you guys did on TWC for a few years. It was ALWAYS bootlegs, and the most popular stuff here was inevitably converted to PAL and made its way to Europe. Bob Barnett was regularly making Japan TV comps and had a conversion VCR as long as I've known him. IIRC, Rob Butcher was the main trader with a conversion VCR in the UK and he got plenty. Plus, I'm not sure when it started, but PAL VCRs were able to play back NTSC tapes pretty well by the late '90s.

 

Even if it was a matter of downloads, YouTube, etc since it's free and even if someone wanted to buy tapes or DVDs, there was extra shipping, why is it only the last few years? The HQ downloads go back at least a few years before the rise of the current group.

Like I said above I think in part it is a demographic issue look at all these people you are referring to they are now mostly in their early to mid 20s mostly well educated earning real money for the first time. They wouldnt be able to afford tapes from Rob Butcher (if they knew who he was) and it would probably be too awkward to ask relations to buy tapes for them in their teens or whatever. Im projecting some of my own experience to generalise here but I know Im not unique.

[Resident Evil]

Like I said Bix it is hard to pin down and isolate why people like what they like I was just giving factors most of which were my experience. Part of it is "we" "got" Puro 10-15 years after you guys in the States after being "teased" from sources from Powerslam to the WCW crusierweight division. But mainly people just like what they like.

 

I really dont know why more people dont watch Lucha or why comparatively why Alan's threads on F4W get more attention that say KrisZs do. Not a foriegn commentary issue nor isnt that huge of a leap style wise from Dragon Gate for a fair amount of it.

 

If you want to talk about Alan yes he doesnt watch Lucha to any great degree but he does watch tonnes of old Japan via Dave Ditch's awesome archive. I dont see Alan as this major taste maker you are making him out to be if anything he takes shit even from his friends online for being in their view hyperbolic or being too generous with his snowflakes. I dont know why he has become a hobby horse for you recently.

As a fan of both lucha libre and puroresu, I have to point out that one of the reasons I much enjoy puroresu over lucha libre is that in general I find I like the way it is presented (and comes off) a lot more to my tastes than lucha libre. I also find the Japanese language accomodates the wrestling product more than Spanish does with lucha libre. I know for wrestling I would much rather watch something in Japanese than Spanish. Even English a lot of the times.

[Bix]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but Japan being idealized in geek culture in general probably contributes in a way now that it didn't with people who were following Japanese wrestling before that. Mexico doesn't have that, is the subject of more racial issues in the US, has way too many people bashing the wrestling style for being "wrong," etc.

[Loss]

The Japanese and American styles also have a lot more in common than the American and Lucha styles.

[Bix]

The Japanese and American styles also have a lot more in common than the American and Lucha styles.

Yes, but generally I've found that people online who were heavily into Dragon Gate (which has a big Lucha influence, especially for the guys who started in the T2P era, but really for anyone from the Dragon Gym days since they were trained extensively in Lucha style and worked extensively in Mexico) were actually the most vitriolic about disliking Lucha.

[Resident Evil]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but Japan being idealized in geek culture in general probably contributes in a way now that it didn't with people who were following Japanese wrestling before that. Mexico doesn't have that, is the subject of more racial issues in the US, has way too many people bashing the wrestling style for being "wrong," etc.

There is a reason why Japan got idealized in geek culture. Simply put, especially in the past, they were doing stuff and working harder than their peers in other countries in the world. They were putting out stuff that geeks loved to see and do. Geeks loved (I don't know abouit the present, there is a less of a gap these days) animation and comic books. Personally, I was a fan of Japanese animation as a youngster before I even knew it was Japanese. Even watered down, you could still tell it was so much better tan the current North American stuff I was watching. It caught people's imagination.

 

For us wrestling geeks, wrestling was the same way. The difference betwwen the products there and elsewhere was astrominical and just like the animated stuff, it was because they were working so much harder. They were using their heart, imagination and creativity more than others.

 

Video games ditto in the past though now this is a category where terrific video games can come from anymore. Japan more than earned their stars and stripes from the geeks.

[Ditch]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but Japan being idealized in geek culture in general probably contributes in a way now that it didn't with people who were following Japanese wrestling before that.

The otaku/Japanese culture aspect was plenty prevalent 3, 5 or 7 years ago when Dragon Gate and Toryumon got way less play. I don't think that's a factor.

 

For reference: Dragon Gate's top finishing matches in the Purotopia 2009 vote were 48th and 50th place. That doesn't include DGUSA, but still, that's essentially no support. And heck, the top DG match on Alan's ballot was 7th place.

[Kronos]

The Japanese and American styles also have a lot more in common than the American and Lucha styles.

It's definitely easier to pick up than Lucha for a non-language-speaker. It's part of the reason I have been learning about puro for 5 years now and only just beginning to think about taking the plunge into lucha.

[Bix]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but Japan being idealized in geek culture in general probably contributes in a way now that it didn't with people who were following Japanese wrestling before that.

The otaku/Japanese culture aspect was plenty prevalent 3, 5 or 7 years ago when Dragon Gate and Toryumon got way less play. I don't think that's a factor.

 

For reference: Dragon Gate's top finishing matches in the Purotopia 2009 vote were 48th and 50th place. That doesn't include DGUSA, but still, that's essentially no support. And heck, the top DG match on Alan's ballot was 7th place.

 

I meant the '90s, not earlier in the aughts. Earlier in the aughts you had the weird period where the biggest western Japanese wrestling fan sites were WAY worse than the current crop of fans. The NJPW superfans would desperately make fun of Noah, referring to it as "NOWAAAAAAA" because they said its fans were crybabies for some reason. The guy who ran the Toryumon site had a legitimate emotional crisis when the split happened that gave us Dragon Gate. He also made bizarre statements about how he was completely straight, but would have sex with Taiji Ishimori if he had the chance. I believe that the guy who ran the NJPW site made similar comments about Hiroshi Tanahashi. Then the guy who ran the Toryumon/DG site tried to claim he was a girl and started writing everything like a "Japanese girl" in a way that makes Japanese girls seem like mentally disabled valley girls who wrote badly translated Japanese to English love letters.

[KrisZ]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but Japan being idealized in geek culture in general probably contributes in a way now that it didn't with people who were following Japanese wrestling before that.

The otaku/Japanese culture aspect was plenty prevalent 3, 5 or 7 years ago when Dragon Gate and Toryumon got way less play. I don't think that's a factor.

 

For reference: Dragon Gate's top finishing matches in the Purotopia 2009 vote were 48th and 50th place. That doesn't include DGUSA, but still, that's essentially no support. And heck, the top DG match on Alan's ballot was 7th place.

 

I meant the '90s, not earlier in the aughts. Earlier in the aughts you had the weird period where the biggest western Japanese wrestling fan sites were WAY worse than the current crop of fans. The NJPW superfans would desperately make fun of Noah, referring to it as "NOWAAAAAAA" because they said its fans were crybabies for some reason. The guy who ran the Toryumon site had a legitimate emotional crisis when the split happened that gave us Dragon Gate. He also made bizarre statements about how he was completely straight, but would have sex with Taiji Ishimori if he had the chance. I believe that the guy who ran the NJPW site made similar comments about Hiroshi Tanahashi. Then the guy who ran the Toryumon/DG site tried to claim he was a girl and started writing everything like a "Japanese girl" in a way that makes Japanese girls seem like mentally disabled valley girls who wrote badly translated Japanese to English love letters.

 

Those were the days and let's not forget the joshi fans. GUREDI

[Ditch]

Wow I must have missed a lot.

 

Ah, the NJ vs NOAH online feud. Those were good times.

[KrisZ]

You came in at the tail end of that run. 2002-03 was like the wild west among the puro smarks online.

[Bix]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but Japan being idealized in geek culture in general probably contributes in a way now that it didn't with people who were following Japanese wrestling before that.

The otaku/Japanese culture aspect was plenty prevalent 3, 5 or 7 years ago when Dragon Gate and Toryumon got way less play. I don't think that's a factor.

 

For reference: Dragon Gate's top finishing matches in the Purotopia 2009 vote were 48th and 50th place. That doesn't include DGUSA, but still, that's essentially no support. And heck, the top DG match on Alan's ballot was 7th place.

 

I meant the '90s, not earlier in the aughts. Earlier in the aughts you had the weird period where the biggest western Japanese wrestling fan sites were WAY worse than the current crop of fans. The NJPW superfans would desperately make fun of Noah, referring to it as "NOWAAAAAAA" because they said its fans were crybabies for some reason. The guy who ran the Toryumon site had a legitimate emotional crisis when the split happened that gave us Dragon Gate. He also made bizarre statements about how he was completely straight, but would have sex with Taiji Ishimori if he had the chance. I believe that the guy who ran the NJPW site made similar comments about Hiroshi Tanahashi. Then the guy who ran the Toryumon/DG site tried to claim he was a girl and started writing everything like a "Japanese girl" in a way that makes Japanese girls seem like mentally disabled valley girls who wrote badly translated Japanese to English love letters.

 

Those were the days and let's not forget the joshi fans. GUREDI

 

Selling is an antiquated concept! It's the 2000s! You have to keep moving and be fast like Momoe Nakanishi, not be SLOW like TEH PHAT WERK with Ian Rotten!

[MJH]

Yes, but generally I've found that people online who were heavily into Dragon Gate were actually the most vitriolic about disliking Lucha.

 

I'm not sure about that... surely the most anti-Lucha brigade are the ultra-dismissive "they're all just gymnasts" crowd? I'd find it hard to imagine them not thinking the same of Dragon Gate, for the same reasons you said (and, perhaps, for others too...).

 

--

 

But in relation to this Alan/WON/DGluv thing...

 

The Dragon Gate thing is easy to explain - it's the only group from Japan that you could describe as "hot" or having been on an up-swing over the last few years with any conviction; ie in the age of quick uploads.

 

X amount of people will always gravitate towards the contemporary and their style is what "cool" modern wrestling is all about. I think maybe it's down to with houses down across the board they're working "hot", "exciting" matches in the hope that anyone tuning in/whatever will go "oh that's cool!" and hang around.

 

We may not think it's all that great (though I have no real problem with DG, enjoy a spotfest on occasion and so will watch it from time to time) at least, not next to Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi, say, but is there really that much stuff that's so significantly better?

 

I watched Kobashi/Akiyama from the '97 Carnival before and it makes an interesting contrast. It's a match that wouldn't've been that out of place in 2010. It's more back and forth/"action"-based that I recall their '98 one being, there's no real linear story/structure. They know their roles to a tee, of course, and Kobashi is dominant whilst giving the crowd every reason to believe the upset is on (letting Jun win some "battles", keeping Jun "alive" often without working it 50/50 etc...) but they were just better. Their selling/acting/mannerisms/whatever was just infinitely more believable. The match didn't look rehearsed. When Jun caught a spinning chop in the face he had the sense to milk the fuck out of it (and did a great job on that, too)... it's as good if not better than any match I saw in 2010.

 

But... no one's as good as 1997 Kobashi. Or Misawa/Kawada/Hashimoto/Benoit/Eddy/Liger/Han/Tamura/Bret/Austin/Santo/Casas etc... certainly no one in anything close to a mainstream context. I know the IWRG guys have their crowd but they're not in any position to make a dent in the WON voting like those I listed from '97 were.

 

--

 

As for Alan and it's UK-centricity. Well, I don't really want to see Alan become some hated figure. I might not agree with him all the time, but he's done nothing to turn people against him, he's a really likeable guy; his only "crime" would be liking modern wrestling and DG more than anyone else. Shit, I wish I could be so lucky and not watch/rewatch older stuff knowing there's nothing "new" to come out other than the rare instance of a classics show unearthing some unaired match.

 

The whole TWC thing is BS. There was a big Puro crowd here 10/15 years ago. We had VHS traders making their fair share of £ off of it. The TWC was hardly mass-marketted, the only people who saw NOAH/whatever on there were people who would've been perfectly capable of downloading it anyway. Dragon Gate wasn't shown on there. The only notable thing was them digging out the old World of Sport stuff from the ITV vaults.

 

I'd imagine something like Powerslam (whilst apparently being big on DG themselves as it fits into their "Meltzerian sensibility" or whatever) isn't responsible, either. My guess would be like most media their numbers have dwindled year by year with the internet.

 

Maybe it's just one of those things were a British audience are more reactive to it? Like Cliff Richard...

 

Or there's more wrestling fans (proportionately) here...

 

It's ultimately such a random thing I doubt there's a simple explanation for it.

[Bix]

Yes, but generally I've found that people online who were heavily into Dragon Gate were actually the most vitriolic about disliking Lucha.

 

I'm not sure about that... surely the most anti-Lucha brigade are the ultra-dismissive "they're all just gymnasts" crowd? I'd find it hard to imagine them not thinking the same of Dragon Gate, for the same reasons you said (and, perhaps, for others too...).

Among people who actually had an idea of what the Lucha style actually entails. The "talentless tumblers" crowd are usually older guys who think that Nitro matches or CZW Jrs. matches = Lucha Libre. Toryumon/Dragon Gate fans would get irrationally angry if you recommended that they check out Lucha Libre or even suggest that the DG style was heavily influenced by Lucha.

[MJH]

So the term "lucharesu" is dead, I take it...?

[Bix]

So the term "lucharesu" is dead, I take it...?

I hope so.

[jdw]

15 years ago most of us were the ones creaming our shorts over what was at the top of the WON awards at the time, while people who made up the core of voters in say 1986-89 were scratching their heads at what we were loving. We were willing to go to the matresses to defend the greatness of what we popped for. Little different from today, and those who love what's at the top of the lists.

 

There are some things poke fun at (such as taking some of Flair's WOTY Awards and retro-giving them to Boxers given the current way things are done now). But... eh.

 

I get the feeling that ECW Fan were wondering why we were crapping on Sabu coming in second similar to how Takashi Sugiura Fans are wonder why people are being mean to Sugiura finishing second. I kind of look back at the 1991-99 period where I took the awards with great seriousness and wonder...

 

It's the American Music Awards, with Dave as Dick Clark, but with the voters limited to the people who dance on Bandstand. If you're one of the dancers or Dick, it means a ton. If you're watching at home, it's just someone else's awards show. If some of the dancers get into a row over who wins, or Dick and some of the dancers are arguing the awards...

 

Eh.

 

I'm going to shows the next two nights that might produce something that draws MOTY votes in this year's Awards. That really wasn't something that crossed my mind when watching Hero-Tozawa. A big difference compared to 1996 when I thought at the end of it that Dragon-Ohtani might pulls some votes. The thought crossed my mind then... doesn't at all anymore.

 

John

[Bix]

It's less "why do they like this?" than "why is it Brits and Irishmen who love it the most?"

[rovert]

It's less "why do they like this?" than "why is it Brits and Irishmen who love it the most?"

Have to laugh at the current DVDR voting.

[Ditch]

Looking at the purotopia poll so far it seems like it's a fluke of F4W as much as anything. But then I did start the poll kinda late for people on the other side of the ocean...