CM Punk: Greatest Promo Ever

[kjh]

The problem with having him return at Survivor Series is that it would be overshadowed with the return of The Rock.

[Dylan Waco]

Yep. The other problem is that you run the risk of the most over guy on the roster cooling off. In theory i think he should habe been out of actio until the Rumble. I just dont see how that would have worked.

[Loss]

You could get the "We Want Punk" stuff to a fever pitch if you stretch it out. Wrestling fans in 2011 never want for anything, because they never have to wait for it. It's a missing element. I picked Survivor Series, but the point is that the fans would tell them when they had stretched it out too long and the time was right to bring him back. Hell, they could do the same on another B-show if you're worried about him being overshadowed by Rock.

 

Even if you wait until September, the point is that bringing him back after one week was way too soon, *especially* when he has entrance music played by WWE production and comes out through the official entrance ramp.

 

But it's impossible to create a new star overnight who will be seen on the level of Austin or Undertaker, which is why there are no new stars at the level of Austin or Undertaker.

[Loss]

Summerslam build: Rey vs Cena main event. Rey defending the belt in his hometown. Punk starts Tweeting that there's no way this match takes place, that they can wrestle all they want, but no way does Rey defend a paper title. Punk shows up on Raw and buys a ticket at ringside, grabs a mic and gets in a few words that he'll be at Summerslam to make sure there is no defense of the title. Cena and Rey say to try them. There's your Summerslam build, with Punk still in the thick of things without killing the angle. That took me two minutes to think of.

 

From there, you have two future PPV main events: Punk vs Rey and Punk vs Cena. Rey is used as a buffer feud and they hold off Punk/Cena II to the Rumble. You also have an opening to debut Hero, Cabana, Claudio or whoever by coming to Punk's aid if Rey and Cena outnumber him and try to get revenge. Even if you don't go that route, the point is that Punk is still heavily involved, still a hot character, but they aren't blowing a big match way before the temperature is right.

[jdw]

I'm going to have to go back in the thread to find all the people who were predicting he'd be back on Raw on 7/25 in this fashion and that Punk-Cena would be the SummerSlam match, because it sure sounds like a lot of people are now saying this is the thing the WWE was always going to do with this angle. Or is it simply justifying it now that it's happened?

 

I'm echoing Loss: I'm not saying it's a dead angle. But was anyone fantasy booking The Greatest Angle In Years to take this turn? Or are we at the stage each week of hitting this mental button:

 

"Okay, they did that... let's now try to figure out how this might work."

 

If that's the case, that's basically the past 10 years of the WWE.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I would have preferred a slow burn and had my own scenario in mind that i had talked up to Will. So of course i agree other things could have been done. Mypoint is that in the modern entertainment universe i dont blame the WWE for cutting straight to the chase with the hottest act they have for one of their bigger ppvs. On top of that the reaction and feel of the moment last night was very big time and there was nothing to sandbag that moment in real time like there was with jerichos debu or other similiar things

[Matt D]

I'm going to have to go back in the thread to find all the people who were predicting he'd be back on Raw on 7/25 in this fashion and that Punk-Cena would be the SummerSlam match, because it sure sounds like a lot of people are now saying this is the thing the WWE was always going to do with this angle. Or is it simply justifying it now that it's happened?

 

I'm echoing Loss: I'm not saying it's a dead angle. But was anyone fantasy booking The Greatest Angle In Years to take this turn? Or are we at the stage each week of hitting this mental button:

 

"Okay, they did that... let's now try to figure out how this might work."

 

If that's the case, that's basically the past 10 years of the WWE.

 

John

There's a question of what we thought would happen and what we wanted to happen too. I think a good amount of us thought Punk would be back on Raw the night after the PPV.

[jdw]

I must have missed a good amount of those comments in this thread.

 

John

[jdw]

That may sound a bit coy, but leading into the last PPV it seemed that most people were still trying to figure out "leaving" vs Leaving. Going into the PPV, I don't think there was a lot of "he'll be on Raw the night after the PPV" comments.

 

John

[Matt D]

That's going into the PPV.

 

After the PPV and he won there wasn't any more "leaving." That's what I was referring to. Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

Except for in that he might be leaving after he drops the belt.

 

You should do a poll right now to see how many people think that once he drops the belt he's gone for a while. Capture this moment so you can more clearly reference it later!

[jdw]

After the PPV and before the first Raw you were talking about "Montreal Actualization": Punk winning the title on the PPV and "leaving" with the belt bringing Vince's worst nightmare to life. There wasn't a thing in that post that got across the notion that you thought in a Montreal actualization that Punk would show up on the Raw after the PPV, nor could there have been because it wouldn't have fit in with what you referred to as your Montreal Manifesto.

 

Bix: when did Mike Johnson start reporting/predicting that Punk would be back on the 7/18 and then 7/25 Raw?

 

John

[Matt D]

After the PPV and before the first Raw you were talking about "Montreal Actualization": Punk winning the title on the PPV and "leaving" with the belt bringing Vince's worst nightmare to life. There wasn't a thing in that post that got across the notion that you thought in a Montreal actualization that Punk would show up on the Raw after the PPV, nor could there have been because it wouldn't have fit in with what you referred to as your Montreal Manifesto.

 

Bix: when did Mike Johnson start reporting/predicting that Punk would be back on the 7/18 and then 7/25 Raw?

 

John

I rather liked that post, though yes, I did get a little carried away. I still say it was more pie-in-the-sky fantasy booking than what we figured would really happen.

It's not my fault my brain has more internal consistency then Vince's.

 

I think at this stage the big question is still just how much or little Punk is going to be able to protect himself moving forward, and the secondary one would be if he's even staying past the end of this angle or if he wants time off.

[jdw]

The big question is / has been whether this angle will make Punk a sustained breakthrough star in the mode of Austin, Rock and Cena who can draw strongly on PPV (and impact other revenue streams) over a number of years for a company that badly needs newer, long term Big Stars. Not short term, but long term.

 

If we're past that point already with a "no" (and I'm *not* saying we are), then this is little more than the same WWE of the past 9 or so years, and we're stuck with all the usual questions.

 

John

[Matt D]

I think if we're straining this entire situation down to one central question, it would have to be "Is this going to pop the territory?" or whatever the modern equivalent of that is.

[KrisZ]

The MITB buyrate is the most important thing in this whole situation. If it did big then Punk is a hot property if not then we'll know for sure.

[jdw]

I think if we're straining this entire situation down to one central question, it would have to be "Is this going to pop the territory?" or whatever the modern equivalent of that is.

 

That's generally what I said, though I was trying to be more specific:

 

Long Term

 

If we're past that point and they're just looking at popping a few ratings and Summer Slam with not a clear thought on the long term, then it's the usual WWE.

 

Hayes turning on Kerry and Gordy slamming the door on Kerry popped the territory. But it did it in a long term fashion by the standards of the time (i.e. heel talent could move out of the area when cooling down and be replaced by fresh big heel talent moving over from some other territory).

 

Long term now with generally closed promotions is best when it's more than a year. Being able to get several years out of Cena on top has been pretty important to the WWE as the talent around him has been a bit in flux.

 

John

[jdw]

The MITB buyrate is the most important thing in this whole situation. If it did big then Punk is a hot property if not then we'll know for sure.

Agreed about 50%. If they're bringing back Punk for Cena-Punk II at SummerSlam, and:

 

* it's actually MITB more than Greatest Promo Ever that gets Punk over

* SummerSlam is the one that does the big buyrate, not MITB

 

Then Punk might be a hot property.

 

It's backwards logic to us hardcores: we loved the promo. But perhaps with the fans what plays more is winning MITB and coming out of it as a Big Star that takes him off.

 

Outsiders didn't really draw huge. Despite all the myths and the historical hype after the fact, the intial angle didn't send things through the roof, and the first PPV didn't do a big buyrate relative to WCW's numbers at the time.

 

But what happened at that first PPV *was* huge, and coming out of it is what made the Outsiders (now nWo) HUGE:

 

Hogan turned

 

Before anyone says it... I agree that it's a major stretch to say Punk is Outsiders/nWo II. Not suggesting it, nor predicting it. But...

 

The Outsiders Angle played then, and now, to hardcores. "They don't really work here!!!" It plays now historically to WCW Fans of the era because it's been treated as a turning point, and lord knows there are a number of people involved in it (Hall, Nash and Eric) who have vested interests in it.

 

Hogan Turn... that played much more to WCW Fan and Wrestling Fans.

 

"A big fucking deal."

-Joe Biden

 

Punk's Promo *might* be something that is really inside baseball that plays to hardcores.

 

Punk beating Cena and fucking over (long time major heel character) Mr. McMahon *might* play more to WWE Fan and have more of a gateway impact if they sustain it.

 

Of course they need to sustain it. If it's Cena-Punk at SummerSlam, they need to build the fuck out of it... and perhaps recall what the WCW did on their first PPV after Hogan Turned:

 

Bash at the Beach 96 - Daytona Beach, FL - Ocean Center - July 7, 1996

Sting, WCW TV Champion Lex Luger, & Randy Savage fought Kevin Nash & Scott Hall to a no contest at around the 17-minute mark when Hulk Hogan appeared, scared Hall & Nash from the ring, and then hit the legdrop on Savage three times, signaling his allignment with them; Luger was taken backstage on a stretcher at the 3-minute mark after his neck was laid across the top turnbuckle and he accidentally sustained a Stinger Splash; prior to the match, Gene Okerlund came out and interviewed Hall & Nash about their mystery third partner, with both men only saying that the third man was in the building; after the bout, a fan attempted to get in the ring but was kicked out by Hall & Nash, with security then attending to the man; moments later, Gene Okerlund conducted an in-ring interview with Hogan, alongside Hall & Nash, during which fans littered the ring with trash; during the segment, Hogan coined the name New World Order to describe the trio of he, Hall, and Nash and said the trash thrown in the ring represents the fans that disrespected him

 

Hog Wild - Sturgis, SD - Sturgis Rally & Race - August 10, 1996

Hulk Hogan pinned WCW World Champion the Giant (w/ Jimmy Hart) to win the title at 14:56 after hitting him in the face with the title belt after the Giant dropped an interfering Scott Hall and Kevin Nash with the chokeslam; after the bout, the Booty Man appeared, wearing a nWo t-shirt, with a birthday cake for Hogan; after Booty Man wished Hogan a happy birthday, Hogan cut a promo on Ric Flair and the attack on Arn Anderson, with Hogan then ordering Hall and Nash to hold Booty so he could hit him with the title belt; Hogan then cut a promo on facing Flair in Denver at the Clash of the Champions before spraypainting "nWo" on the title belt

Monster push of Hogan continued, winning the title and going off on a run with the belt.

 

So perhaps folks might put too much into the MITB buyrate, whether it's high or low or the same. Really it's the equivs of Hog Wild, Halloween Havoc (good buy opposite Savage) and Starcade (company revenue record at the time against Piper) that showed it was working.

 

Is that an optimistic, none negative enough post?

 

John

[kjh]

I agree for this to work as more than a short term business boost, Punk needs to go on a pretty lengthy title run with Cena, Rey, ADR, Miz, etc all chasing him, so fans believe this is a real deal elevation of Punk as a star. I don't get the sense that's what WWE plans to do, but they could always change their minds and run with it. Unless he's really taking off after SummerSlam and they've got a good idea to bring him back just as hot.

[KrisZ]

We don't know his storyline motivations for coming back last night yet and won't until next week so that is the cliffhanger that they want do to weekly and how that promo goes is key to how this angle moves on. Plus I think we can all agree that he must defeat Cena at Summerslam then move on to other opponents.

[Bix]

This could very well be a sign that MITB did strong prelim numbers and they felt Summerslam was better with Punk.

[Ditch]

There's really no way they weren't doing Cena/Punk at Summerslam after MITB and all the buzz.

[rovert]

There's really no way they weren't doing Cena/Punk at Summerslam after MITB and all the buzz.

Especially how cold Alberto is in comparison.

[jdw]

"Originally, as we wrote last week, Del Rio was going to leave Money in the Bank as the WWE Champion. The plan for months has been Cena vs. Del Rio at SummerSlam, and that would indicate that Punk wouldn't be in the title picture by mid-August. In fact, the plan was still Cena vs. Del Rio as of the afternoon of July 25th. I don't know what the plans were for Punk, but with Del Rio and Cena fighting for the title that would indicate that Punk was going to be involved in another match. I was told that whatever the original plan was for him, it was awful and would have killed the angle dead."

-Bryan Alverez

 

"One very important thing to note is that as much as people have loved the Punk storyline, and as much as it was clearly a box office success given Money in the Bank, the reality is that it's still not considered the most important thing in WWE internally."

-Bryan Alverez

 

I'm barely touching on Bryan freaking out over Monday. That's enough to wet subs taste.

 

Anyway, we may be Thinking Too Much about the WWE having a plan here. It really does sound like they're in typical booking mode of throwing shit at the wall.

 

John

[rovert]

Like anything how do we know that Bryan wasnt fed a line of BS with Cena vs Alberto stuff?

 

I wonder what the shitty match Punk would have had instead. Him vs Nexus?

[kjh]

Bryan seems to be just parroting what Dave said on Wrestling Observer Radio, John. It's a bit silly to say on the one hand "they change their minds constantly", yet then say "I'm sure they won't change their mind this time", as if one Mexican tour would outweigh everything else.