CM Punk: Greatest Promo Ever

[Dylan Waco]

No problem with an outsider perspective and people can post whatever they want to post but here is the thing.

 

What is more "self consciously epic" about Punk v. Cena than a match like Warrior v. Savage or Austin v. Bret?

 

What is "boring" about in ring WWE?

 

I get the general thematic argument Jerome makes, but I don't see a lot of specifics and he has pretty much said we are not going to get specific comparisons to matches from different eras. That's his choice and I don't blame him for not watching something if he thinks it sucks. I think TNA sucks. I don't care for Dragon Gate stylistically at all. But I don't comment on either promotion very much and when I do I have no problem giving pretty specific reasons why I don't enjoy what they are offering.

[MJH]

Well TNA/DG matches come up (here) far less frequently, in fairness...

 

Warrior/Savage is "self-consciously epic" though I've also went on record saying how the actual match itself isn't any great shakes, it's the entire thing (ie; the reunion) that makes it a "classic match".

 

Bret/Austin? I'm not seeing it. In a literal sense, sure, they went out to have a memorable match. The Austin facial I don't think as intended outright ahead of time as being "this is the shot". And the match makes much more sense linearly? if that's the word. Bret/Austin is actually quite "small" by both modern standards and world-wide standards of '97, really; Bret was too much a throwback.

[goodhelmet]

I don't really understand what you are getting at.

[Loss]

"Self conscious epic" would be like the HHH/Shawn "LOOK AT US, WE ARE BLEEDING AND WRESTLING FOR 45 MINUTES" HIAC in '04. Matches that don't feel organic because they tried too hard to be a forced classic.

[Dylan Waco]

Well TNA/DG matches come up (here) far less frequently, in fairness...

True, but if you look I rarely comment on them at DVDVR where they have large threads dedicated to them

[MJH]

I hardly frequent said threads myself .

[MJH]

"Self conscious epic" would be like the HHH/Shawn "LOOK AT US, WE ARE BLEEDING AND WRESTLING FOR 45 MINUTES" HIAC in '04. Matches that don't feel organic because they tried too hard to be a forced classic.

That might be the best example, yes. At least HBK/Taker, HHH/Taker are Mania Main Events and Punk/Cena was a hot feud.

[smkelly]

Whenever I see "self-conscious epic" I think of Davey Richards and wrestlers like him, which the WWE does fall into that category sometimes, but not often enough in my point-of-view to be a distinguishable mark of shame for them. I generally see dudes trying to beat one another up, win matches, and claim titles.

[jdw]

"Self conscious epic" would be like the HHH/Shawn "LOOK AT US, WE ARE BLEEDING AND WRESTLING FOR 45 MINUTES" HIAC in '04. Matches that don't feel organic because they tried too hard to be a forced classic.

Shawn-Trip at SS when Shawn first came back.

 

Earlier?

 

In a sense, Foley-Taker HitC was as well.

 

Earlier?

 

Shawn-Foley struck me moreso than Bret-Austin. Watching it cold, there was a vibe that they're really trying to have a "classic". Wade's comments later (some of which may have been on the phone) made it even more clear.

 

Now... is all of that a Bad Thing? Depends. I'm not a fan at all of the first Shawn-Trip clusterfuck, nor of the Foley-Taker HitC. "Self conscious epic" does a good job of capturing some of the elements that I don't like. On the other hand, I liked Shawn-Foley at the time.

 

Was 6/94 as "Self conscious epic"? Didn't feel that way. 1/97 Misawa-Kobashi didn't feel like one, instead more along the lines of "they seem to be nailing a TC Title Match this time around." On the other hand, the 10/97 version probably would feel on re-watch like the "Self conscious epic" vibe was creeping in, while the 1998 & 1999 versions would be over the top in that.

 

I don't think that "Self conscious epic" is something that can just be applied to the WWE. Misawa-Kobashi took home three WON MOTY Awards with them, and then Kobashi bagged another pair with Jun and Joe. There's a good chance I'll see one tommorow night at PWG's BOLA.

 

Still... the WWF/WWE likes to do them. It especially seemed like Trip liked to do them when the WWE/WWF shifted from Theatrical Spectacle WWF Big Match (Rude-Warrior / Hogan-Warrior / Savage-Warrior / Austin-Rock being obvious examples) to Self Conscious Epic WWE Big Match (a lot of Trip "classics").

 

Is it splitting hairs? Not sure. Choshu-Tenryu at the Dome feels more Theatrical Spectacle, as did Hogan-Warrior. What we jokingly refer to as Patterson Specials where Pat carefully laid out a match... those feel more like Theatrical Spectacles. Foley-Taker came across as more obviously manipulative on the part of Foley. All matches are about manipulating the crowd, but a Self Conscious Epic feels more like a "look at me!!!!" manipulation, or "aren't we having a great/epic match" rather than just busting your ass and letting it flow. Foley-Taker really felt like that at the time, and the years haven't changed that vibe.

 

For all the criticism I've thrown at Flair, has anything come across that Ric was going for "look at me" or "we're working a classic here!" vibe? When I talk about Ric's I've Got Stuff To Do style, it's not about Ric trying to cram stuff in to pop a star rating or get praised for having a great match. It's just that Ric's got spots that he knows pops the crowd, and he wants to keep the match and crowd moving along by getting to them. We can knock Ric at times for not thinking some stuff through (making Kerry run the ropes when Kerry was selling the knee). But did it often in his prime look like Ric was really trying to Work An Epic, or just having one of the various versions of a Flair Match?

 

That might be a decent positive to add to Ric's ledger.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

I've been to cards where workers have slipped into the crowd after their matches to ask Dave how many stars he gave it. Sure, they tried to small talk around before popping it, but whenever they got there, it was pretty obvious it was the reason they slipped over rather than wait to talk to Dave after the card. Then I'd reflect back on the match, and could come up with the stuff they did to try to pop Dave (and recall a "X is fired up to night" comment out of Dave after those spots).

 

Not exactly Self Conscious Epic, but certainly Self Conscious.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

On a related note, I absolutely hate it when guys say stuff to the effect of "I just had a great match" in their promos, especially when the guy lost the match in question. From a kayfabe standpoint, you shouldn't care about having good matches. You should be concerned with winning matches. When the '81 Dolphins lost to the Chargers in the playoffs, did they go around bragging about what an epic game they were in?

[jdw]

Good example. NFL Films has done at least one "Greatest Games Of All-Time" show on that Fins-Chargers game. Even years after it, the Fins were pained that they lost that game. Same goes for the Colts-Pats where the Pats lost and Manning & Co went on to win the Super Bowl. The Pats players on it were very open about how much they HATED losing that game. Being in an All-Time Classic meant nothing to them.

 

John

[Jingus]

I don't say this too often, but I mostly agree with Dylan here. The anti-WWE guys have been awfully vague about what their specific problems with the current product is. Heck, in one of my recent posts defending said style, I laid out more articulated criticisms of the problems with WWE Style than most of its detractors had. I think I understand why they don't like it, but they're not stating their positions very well. They sound kinda like me trying to describe how biting into a sandwich that contains pickles, mustard, onions, and tomatoes would likely end with me projectile vomiting onto whomever just gave me such a vile atrocity: I understand their passion, but they're not saying much more than "it tastes yucky".

 

In a sense, Foley-Taker HitC was as well.

How does that one count? Especially considering that from the second bump onward, Foley was basically out on his feet and the rest of the match was hastily improvised. Yeah, that unbelievable first cage bump was Foley's self-conscious attempt to top everything that Shawn had done in the first Cell match, but the rest is one of the more painful "the show must go on" experiences with Taker leading a dazed Mankind by the hand.

[Dylan Waco]

What's worse than that is "Me and my opponent are going to have a great match/MOTY" Kurt Angle is the king of that one

[Loss]

They sound kinda like me trying to describe how biting into a sandwich that contains pickles, mustard, onions, and tomatoes would likely end with me projectile vomiting onto whomever just gave me such a vile atrocity: I understand their passion, but they're not saying much more than "it tastes yucky".

Please ... just shut up. You are making things up completely out of thin air and you're well aware of that.

[Ditch]

During Liger's ROH interview, when asked about favorite matches he TOTALLY no-sold it because he wouldn't break kayfabe. And that was a "shoot". I distinctly recall a Steiners vs "Fire & Ice" promo where the teams were face to face and looking intense while talking about tearing the house down. My first thought was "should they really be saying that?", and I was around 14 years old.

[KrisZ]

What's worse than that is "Me and my opponent are going to have a great match/MOTY" Kurt Angle is the king of that one

Davey gives him a run for his money.

 

RVD/Jerry Lynn seemed like they were going for the "epic" feel on most of their matches also.

[Loss]

RVD/Lynn was, yes, but almost all ECW was overly calculated and manipulative, which was both endearing and annoying at the same time.

[Ditch]

RVD/Lynn did have a "we're gonna put on a good show" vibe, but it's not like they kicked out of each others' finishers ten times and deliberately tried to do a MOTY. RVD and Lynn spent enough time in Japan and probably watched plenty of other stuff, they knew how to do 'epic'. They kept it at "two good athletes trying hard" and it worked.

 

Bryan Danielson starting in late '05 was SORTA like that. "Best in the world", tons of 25+ minute singles matches that tried to pretty much go as far as the opponent could... but he's good enough at structure and psychology that it was organic more often than heavy-handed.

[Jingus]

They sound kinda like me trying to describe how biting into a sandwich that contains pickles, mustard, onions, and tomatoes would likely end with me projectile vomiting onto whomever just gave me such a vile atrocity: I understand their passion, but they're not saying much more than "it tastes yucky".

Please ... just shut up. You are making things up completely out of thin air and you're well aware of that.

 

What? Where did that come from? I was being serious, not making anything up at all.

[Loss]

They sound kinda like me trying to describe how biting into a sandwich that contains pickles, mustard, onions, and tomatoes would likely end with me projectile vomiting onto whomever just gave me such a vile atrocity: I understand their passion, but they're not saying much more than "it tastes yucky".

Please ... just shut up. You are making things up completely out of thin air and you're well aware of that.

 

What? Where did that come from? I was being serious, not making anything up at all.

 

When did I -- or anyone else -- say anything that suggested that watching modern WWE is like eating a disgusting sandwich?

[Jingus]

No, that's not what I meant at all, sorry if it was unclear. I meant that EL-P et al weren't naming many specific examples of exactly why they hate the style, it was mostly just a general "I just don't like it" albeit expressed in many more words. Kinda like how it's difficult for people to describe exactly why they prefer the taste of some foods versus the others. I'm sure there are some people who would love a sandwich like I described; I don't understand them, but I can't come up with well-articulated reasons why they're wrong.

[jdw]

I don't say this too often, but I mostly agree with Dylan here. The anti-WWE guys have been awfully vague about what their specific problems with the current product is.

I think Jerome has walked through what he hates about WWE-style quite a few times since say 2003 and is probably as tired of writing a long, detailed post on it as people who love WWE-style are of reading it.

 

 

In a sense, Foley-Taker HitC was as well.

How does that one count? Especially considering that from the second bump onward, Foley was basically out on his feet and the rest of the match was hastily improvised. Yeah, that unbelievable first cage bump was Foley's self-conscious attempt to top everything that Shawn had done in the first Cell match, but the rest is one of the more painful "the show must go on" experiences with Taker leading a dazed Mankind by the hand.

The first and second bumps are planned jerk off spots by Mick to top the Taker-Shawn HitC. There wasn't anything "hasty" about what they did after the second bump: they went nearly a full 10 mintues after it until the tombstone finish. That included stuff like Taker walking the ropes, the refs "relocking the cage", Mick getting the tumbtacks so he could bump on them, and the mandible claw.

 

The "out on his feet" legend is one of many things about the match that make it clear that Mick was went in to work a self conscious epic: he's spent years bullshitting it up to get over the epicness of it.

 

John

[jdw]

What's worse than that is "Me and my opponent are going to have a great match/MOTY" Kurt Angle is the king of that one

Yeah, Kurt probably is the Prince of Self Conscious Epics, riding them all the way into the WON HOF. I'd say Trip is the King of Kings of Self Conscious Epics because his are so methodically laid out and overkilled for drama / theatrics / etc. Kurt's tended / tend to be more spotfu.

 

I know people shit on Davey Richards, but I actually hate watching Eddie Edwards more.

 

John

[Jingus]

JDW: I started to type out what would've been a long damn retort with many footnotes and references, but I gotta face the fact that you just plain master debated me. (Have A Nice Day pun is entirely intentional.) You actually made me question the integrity of what Mick Foley wrote in his book. I'm not so sure exactly what was planned anymore. That's damn fine internetting, sir.

[jdw]

When you wrote what you wrote, in the back of my mind two things popped up based on memory:

 

* they did take it home not long after the second bump

 

* but they also did seem to want to get in a few spots Mick wanted like the thumb tacks

 

So I looked up a youtube clips to refresh my memory. I was surprised...

 

By how freaking long they went after the second bump. They did buy some time for Mick to get his shit together, such as Funk taking the choke slam. But it wasn't *that* long: in other words, they didn't stall for five minutes then rush through five minutes of stuff Mick wanted to get to. Stalled a bit, then actually went back to working the match they had planned.

 

It's really jarring to watch the match again. I was one of the few people who didn't like it at the time, and really have avoided watching it as much as possible since. Watching it again... yeah... I really don't like the match or performance.

 

John