AWA Thread

[PeteF3]

Sorry, I went from talking about the babyface retaining the title Dusty-style to talking about the Dusty Finish in general (which happened quite a lot with Bockwinkel). It does make a bit more sense with a heel champ but it was still overdone.

[Dylan Waco]

A big part of the problem is that he shouldn't have been challenging Zhukov, Hayes and Garvin in extended programs (actually I think some of those programs did good in Canada, but you get my point). If they were set on Martel as the ace, they should have done something to get him more credible challengers. I honestly think if they had been booked right both Superstar with Adnan and Larry Z could have been quality challengers at that point for programs. Certainly better than Zhukov, Garvin or Hayes. I also think they would have been better off running face v. face if they were dead set against turning anyone.

[Frankensteiner]

Like any finish it might be okay in moderation, but it was not only insanely overdone throughout AWA history (I'm guessing much more often than any promotion Dusty booked) but it made Martel look weak--at least to this after-the-fact observer--when he couldn't retain his title over Michael Hayes or Jimmy Garvin without help from Wally Karbo.

I agree but "throughout AWA history" is stretching it. How many babyface singles champs of any length were there, ever? Martel...and Verne Gagne. MAYBE you could count Jerry Lawler but he wasn't an all-the-time face champ by any stretch of it. That's it.

 

I'll give you that it was overdone with Martel (Garvin and Hayes happened almost back-to-back), but he did have some successful AWA title defenses that were "clean wins". Robinson, Saito, Zbyszko, King Tonga and Bockwinkel come to mind that made film.

 

He ended up technically getting pinfall wins over Zbyszko and Bockwinkel but I wouldn't say they made him look very strong. They were all of the double-pin variety (except 3/85 in Winnipeg, which had Bock with his foot on the ropes, after Martel had been in the same predicament seconds earlier).

[jdw]

Bumping this because I was talking to Bix about this yesterday and with the talk about Slaughter I thought this might be an interesting topic for discussion.

 

One popular talking point that the WWE and others have run with throughout the years is that the loss of Hogan killed the AWA dead. I think if you look at the data pulled together by Kris in his thread on the WWE expansion and combine it with the data I pulled together in the Blackwell and Patera threads it is obvious that isn't true. While it would be a stretch to say the loss of Hogan was irrelevant, the fact is the AWA was still making money long after Hogan departed.

I think most everyone has pointed this out: the AWA did good business in 1984. There were some signs of issues, but also signs of good strength.

 

On the other hand, once Vince had Hogan and invaded the AWA with's Vince's long terms plans and with Verne as the opponent, Vince was going to win. Could someone else in change have stopped Vince from taking AWA Land eventually? I'm not certain who could have that was in the business at the time.

 

The analogy that I would use in a sporting sense would be Bobby Bonilla leaving the Pirates after the 1991 season for that monster contract in New York. They also traded away a 20 game winner in John Smiley.

 

The Pirates has just won the NL East the prior two seasons. People expected the roof to fall in. Instead, they won the NL East again in 1992.

 

Why? They were still a good team. They had the best player in baseball. They led the NL in runs, and their pitching was surprisingly good, especially the make shift rotation.

 

Hogan was greater than Bonilla... be frankly was Bonds. But what Bonilla signified was that the Pirates weren't going to be able to pay top dollar for stars. They blew their chance to extend Bonilla earlier for less but what at the time was still top dollar. Worse, they feuded with *Bonds* for years over money rather than extending him when he was younger. Same for their ace, Doug Drabek.

 

It was clear when they lost Bonilla and traded away Smiley that they were going to lose Bonds and Drabek. Worse, not only was there nothing coming up to replace them, but the Big 3 were all going to walk rather than being traded.

 

They were a doomed franchise because they weren't hip to the changing realities of the game. In contrast, the Cleveland Indians of that same era often extended players relatively young: Belle, Manny and Thome among others had years of free agency bought off by the club giving them relatively fair market (given their age) soon into the MLB careers. Since contracts were going up-up-up at the time, those contracts ended up being being very good values for the teams... especially since those players performed.

 

Bonilla was the early warning tipping point that the Pirates were doomed.

 

Hogan leaving for Vince _and_ Vince expanding aggressively into AWA Land _and_ the way he was going about it was the early sign that the AWA was doomed unless Verne joined Vince in the modern world. Verne wasn't capable of doing that, and while he had his equiv of the 1992 Pirates (another NL East title), the handwriting was on the wall.

 

The only way *Verne* would have survived would be for Vince to go bankrupt. I think we've had this discussion before: that was never going to happen, since Vince could simply have pulled back into his successful markets (which he had many major ones), and used those to finance his continuing attack on the primary targets (the AWA being #1).

 

The only way the *AWA* could have survived is if someone with Vince-like vision were in charge, or had Verne's long term full faith and confidence. That doesn't seem possible either at the time or in hindsight.

 

Again, every one agrees (and we've had these discussions a few times) that the AWA did do good business after Hogan left.

 

It's just a matter of whether they could have sustained it.

 

* * * * * * *

 

Reading the MX/Cornette book, I'm struck by something of a similar thing. JCP had such a successful year that one starts thinking about how JCP could have sustained it, avoided the mistakes, focused better and gotten more organized... and could they have challenged Vince better for longer.

 

We all do that... we've all played Fantasy Booker/Promoter of our favorite promotion(s). It's a part of what we do as fans. Even knowing what I know about JCP, and having lived through it... I can't help it.

 

But I do tend to come back to: they never were going to beat Vince. I tend to point to Mania III rather than Survivor Series 1987 as the tipping point. After that one, it was hard to see anyone beating Vince.

 

Could they have stayed a strong #2. I'm more doubtful of that as the years pass.

 

John

[KB8]

Not related to the current discussion, but how much Hansen are we likely to see on the finished AWA set? I'd assume there'll be at least one of the Hennig matches that were talked about in this thread and the Slaughter match Dylan spoke about in the Hansen thread a number of months back...what else?

[Dylan Waco]

Not related to the current discussion, but how much Hansen are we likely to see on the finished AWA set? I'd assume there'll be at least one of the Hennig matches that were talked about in this thread and the Slaughter match Dylan spoke about in the Hansen thread a number of months back...what else?

Hansen v. young Vader, a pair of matches v. Hennig, the Slaughter handheld, and Blackwell match at Battle of The Bay all have very strong shots. I would venture to guess all of those will be on. There is another Slaughter match I would fight pretty hard for and a third boot camp match that I liked but was disappointing and expendable if need be. Martel match from SuperClash will definitely make it as an EXTRA though I'm not sure it will get on as a match. There is also a brawl with Martel I haven't seen yet that set up the title switch in the Meadowlands which likely has a good shot if the word I've seen on it is any indication.

 

Hansen really wasn't around long so I'd say six or seven matches is a very good haul.

[Dylan Waco]

I think most everyone has pointed this out: the AWA did good business in 1984. There were some signs of issues, but also signs of good strength.

Again, every one agrees (and we've had these discussions a few times) that the AWA did do good business after Hogan left.

Maybe everyone here does now and I'm sure any intelligent person who's paid attention to the facts always has. But I don't feel like this has been a long standing truism. The narrative of Hogan leaving for Vince leading to the AWA tanking I don't necessarily disagree with, but I have seen plenty of times even recently where this is mixed up for "Hogan left, business shit the bed, AWA pathetic until it eventually faded away."

 

The only way *Verne* would have survived would be for Vince to go bankrupt. I think we've had this discussion before: that was never going to happen, since Vince could simply have pulled back into his successful markets (which he had many major ones), and used those to finance his continuing attack on the primary targets (the AWA being #1).

 

The only way the *AWA* could have survived is if someone with Vince-like vision were in charge, or had Verne's long term full faith and confidence. That doesn't seem possible either at the time or in hindsight.

 

It's just a matter of whether they could have sustained it.

 

* * * * * * *

 

Reading the MX/Cornette book, I'm struck by something of a similar thing. JCP had such a successful year that one starts thinking about how JCP could have sustained it, avoided the mistakes, focused better and gotten more organized... and could they have challenged Vince better for longer.

 

We all do that... we've all played Fantasy Booker/Promoter of our favorite promotion(s). It's a part of what we do as fans. Even knowing what I know about JCP, and having lived through it... I can't help it.

 

But I do tend to come back to: they never were going to beat Vince. I tend to point to Mania III rather than Survivor Series 1987 as the tipping point. After that one, it was hard to see anyone beating Vince.

 

Could they have stayed a strong #2. I'm more doubtful of that as the years pass.

I'm not really interested in discussions about whether Verne could or would have "survived" in the broad sense - I think that very unlikely for a multitude of reasons. I think it is more interesting to think about whether or not Verne could have maintained a profitable base for a few more years had he not made the errors he made and how that would have effected Vince. Is it hard to project or guess with any degree of accuracy? Yes, but in running through the results and watching the tv it is startling to me how much Verne contributed to the destruction of his empire.

[jdw]

Maybe everyone here does now and I'm sure any intelligent person who's paid attention to the facts always has. But I don't feel like this has been a long standing truism. The narrative of Hogan leaving for Vince leading to the AWA tanking I don't necessarily disagree with, but I have seen plenty of times even recently where this is mixed up for "Hogan left, business shit the bed, AWA pathetic until it eventually faded away."

Anyone with any credibility saying that? I mean... if SKeith is saying it, who give a fuck, right? Bryan? Dittos.

 

The WON at the time has extensive AWA coverage via Mr. Mike, both looking at the AWA and also the WWF's invasion. He pointed to stuff that drew, cards that didn't, and gave a good overview. I do recall a general gloom that built over time in his stuff, as he seemed to have a sense that some of the things you outlined above were dooming the promotion in the long term.

 

If Dave has changed his tune to the business instantly going to hell, then it's just a matter of Dave not paying attention to what he wrote at the time. It wouldn't be the first time (Jumbo=Lazy).

 

If Bruce said it, no one ever confused Bruce with an AWA expert.

 

Wade... I'm not really sure if he watched enough in 1982-85 AWA at the time to track the decline.

 

 

I'm not really interested in discussions about whether Verne could or would have "survived" in the broad sense - I think that very unlikely for a multitude of reasons. I think it is more interesting to think about whether or not Verne could have maintained a profitable base for a few more years had he not made the errors he made and how that would have effected Vince. Is it hard to project or guess with any degree of accuracy? Yes, but in running through the results and watching the tv it is startling to me how much Verne contributed to the destruction of his empire.

I don't think he would have effected Vince much. Vince would have thrown the resources that were needed to win it. He wasn't going to fail in adding Chicago to his list of major cities. The Twin Cities are less important to him in terms of $$$ than in killing off Verne. Hogan was on the first four Chicago cards. When Vince got into the Rosemont Horizon in August 1985, it was Hogan again anchoring the first four shows.

 

Could he have stayed profitable? I guess anyone can stay profitable, as Jarrett and Lawler show. But he would have had to find his Lawler. The odds on that?

 

Who were the people out there who could draw on a sustained level like Hogan, and which did Verne have a shot at? I don't think anyone. He certainly wasn't going to develop one.

 

That's the thing that let JCP survive longer: they had Flair. They went out and got Luger and the Roadies. Dusty grabbed the MX and R'nR at the right time, and it's hard to see Verne doing it. Dusty had Dusty, and while he burned out, he was important in drawing in 1985 as they expanded. JCP also had a core that Vince wasn't able to break into, while Vince didn't have a probably creating a beach head in Chicago or the Twin Cities. In fact, it was more than a beach head in Chicago.

 

Vince was willing to write off Mid Atlantic & Atlanta: it just wasn't important in the 80s for him. He did the same with Texas. AWA was different. He wasn't going to write it off. Verne really had nothing to fight it, and it's hard to see what he could get to do it.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

I'm not really interested in discussions about whether Verne could or would have "survived" in the broad sense - I think that very unlikely for a multitude of reasons. I think it is more interesting to think about whether or not Verne could have maintained a profitable base for a few more years had he not made the errors he made and how that would have effected Vince. Is it hard to project or guess with any degree of accuracy? Yes, but in running through the results and watching the tv it is startling to me how much Verne contributed to the destruction of his empire.

I think they were screwed no matter what. Take the Midnight Rockers as an example. That was an instant where Verne did the right thing and it was still ruined because you had 60 year old announcers trying to sell the coolness of the team. Really, they needed younger blood in the front office. You needed someone in 1988 that understood the appeal of the Rock N Roll Express and how to build off their recent Crockett run.

 

Watching the tv, it was as much a formatting issue as it was a booking issue. The shows were just dull. Bad production values, extended boring squash matches and just outdated compared to the contemporary programs at the time. Honestly, the Team Challenge Series was the most interesting thing that had happened to the product in 4 years because the product at least modernized a little.

[Dylan Waco]

Midnight Rockers came around after the fall was already virtually complete. I don't know if they ever worked in front of a crowd of 5k in the AWA excluding WrestleRock. Verne could have presented them wonderfully and it wouldn't have mattered - the ship had already sailed. I'm not sure that the momentum could have been kept up, but I think the major errors were made starting in March of 85 and the point of no return was probably late August of 85 when they booked Alaska/Boston shows in subsequent weeks after having a really good house show run right before hand in their normal loop towns.

 

I just finished watching stuff from the TCS era and while I enjoyed it more than I thought I would, I don't think it was anywhere near as good as the tv that was taped at the Showboat. Part of that was the talent pool, but I don't see any argument for the TCS era tv even being close to the Showboat era tv.

 

The announcers in the AWA pretty much always sucked after Okerland left.

[rzombie1988]

The AWA was doomed and they were lucky to last as long as they did. Vince didn't just have it out for Verne, he was the equivalent of Genghis Khan with Verne. He slashed and burned, and then burned some more. Even Eric Bischoff in WCW would have said, "Oh Vince, lighten up". I'm surprised Vince didn't try to steal Greg Gagne.

 

I didn't mind the Team Challenge Series. It's a little hard to piece together just by watching ESPN replays of AWA, but had it only gone on for maybe 1 month total, it might have been okay.

 

I enjoyed the AWA. I'd put it below Memphis/WWF/WCCW, but I still think the tv shows were better than the NWA tv shows at the time. Atleast AWA had alot of different hungry guys getting experience. The booking really sucked though. The right guys never won at the right time and Verne blew chances to make a move with Slaughter, Snuka, Hansen, Hogan, The Rockers and a host of others.

 

I liked Lord James Blears as announcer. He had a great retro voice for it and probably would have fit better doing WWF commentary. Keep Ray Stevens far away from any mic though. He sounded like a drunk.

[Mad Dog]

I find the Showboat to be just kind of boring with good matches mixed in here and there. TCS era is so bad at points that it's entertaining. There's usually something on every episode that you can latch onto and enjoy for the pure badness of it.

 

I thought Lee Marshall was okay. He wasn't good but he didn't seem to torpedo the product like Larry Nelson did. I can't even begin to count how many interviews that Nelson would just bring to a crashing halt with his badness.

[Dylan Waco]

Angle/production wise I'd put the AWA behind Memphis/WWF/WCCW, though it had more good stuff than people give it credit for. In ring I think it was better than WWF and WCCW by a wide margin. Memphis is tougher because I'm heavily biased toward that style but when all is said and done I think the top fifty of the Memphis Set and the top fifty of the AWA Set are going to be very comparable in quality.

 

I'm guessing here, but I suspect 86 might actually be the year with the most matches on the AWA Set when all is said and done. I would not be shocked to see the overall top ten include a half dozen matches from that year. Kind of crazy that while Rome was burning the quality of the in ring product was so high.

[jdw]

So does anyone know what happened in Detroit between the Sheik's promotion dying in 1980 and Vince starting to run there on 12/30/83? Did Verne make a run at it?

 

I think Ole got as north as Ohio. Seemed like a natural for Verne to use Hogan in 1982 and 1983 to claim that torn. Granted, it was a dead "NWA territory", but Verne seemed to have the okay to go into San Fran.

 

John

[rzombie1988]

I enjoyed Ox Baker in the TCS era. He was great on the mic and totally believeable. I also enjoyed the stupidity of Flapjack "298 Pancakes" Norton.

 

I think the WWA laid claims to the Sheik's old territory in the early 80's.

[jdw]

Which is great: the dead WWA.

 

If Verne was smart, he would have just moved in. Bruiser can get a cut of the action as a local promoter... or get rolled.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I can't find any record of Verne ever running Detroit. Really crazy in hindsight as it was a close town to his base of operations and one he might have actually had a reasonable degree of success in.

[rzombie1988]

Which is great: the dead WWA.

 

If Verne was smart, he would have just moved in. Bruiser can get a cut of the action as a local promoter... or get rolled.

 

John

They were still around during that time period, but yeah, the glory days were far gone. They did give us Dr. Jerry Graham Jr though.

[rzombie1988]

I can't find any record of Verne ever running Detroit. Really crazy in hindsight as it was a close town to his base of operations and one he might have actually had a reasonable degree of success in.

Verne wouldn't have ran Detroit as he would have been stepping on Dick the Bruiser and considering he was a big talent for AWA, it wasn't going to happen. Bruiser was running Detroit at the Civic Center past 1987.

[Dylan Waco]

The Bruiser could have been cajoled by Verne for a limited stake the AWA gates in the town. It's not like he was pulling down anything on his own. Verne was willing to run in other areas with established territories. I still don't know what the story of him running St. Louis in 84 was. I assume that was after Vince swept in there?

[rzombie1988]

I don't see it happening, since Dick was not really the giving type and they were really closely intertwined with sharing talent for a while. I'm sure Verne made some money out of the deal, but it was going to be a WWA card.

 

WWA was still passable as of 1982, but just from looking at results, things were getting ready to go downhill. Things started to get really ugly in 1984 with Gerry Lawler.

[jdw]

They were affiliated with the AWA. I don't think Bruiser goes into Detroit without an understanding with Verne. I suspect at the time they simply could have come to an agreement to run it under the larger AWA banner with the AWA Champ / AWA Tag Team champs and AWA TV being sent in. I mean... just what type of business was Bruiser doing in 1982-83? You have the chance to spike up the gates into a 10K range running say monthly show. Again, let Bruiser be the local promoter for a cut, but he really didn't have the talent to run what was a major city.

 

If he doesn't want in, you basically tell him that your talent is otherwise occupied on the nights Bruiser is running Detroit.

 

I know Verne went back a long way with Bruiser and didn't want to piss him off. So you don't go at it cut throat like Vince, but from a business standpoint.

 

John

[KrisZ]

This isn't complete but here is what I have from Detroit. George Cannon took over from Sheik in 1981.

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI – Cobo Hall – March 7, 1981

Gino Brito d. Santos #2

John Bonello vs. Don Kent

Luis Martinez d. Sailor White

The Destroyer d. Dark Angel

Sweet Ebony Diamond d. Swede Hanson

Greg Valentine d. Dino Bravo by DQ

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Hall - May 2, 1981

Kasavubu fought Luis Martinez to a draw

Billy Two Eagles fought Hans Mueller to a draw

Great Wojo d. Pierre LeFebvre

Dino Bravo fought Michel DuBois to a draw

Gino Brito d. The Destroyer

Hartford Love d. Iron Sheik by DQ

Don Kent d. Edouard Carpentier

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Hall - January 16, 1982

Jerry Graham Jr. d. Great Wojo by DQ

Gino Brito & Al Costello d. The Convicts

Chris Carter fought Mohammad Saad to a draw

John Bonello fought Frankie Laine to a draw

Mighty Igor d. The Hangman

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Hall - February 27, 1982

The Patriot d. Chris Curtis

Pete Caparella & Great Wojo d. Smasher Stone & Zoltan Thunder

Dominic DeNucci d. Bobby Golden

Muhammad Saad d. Mike Anthony

Gino Brito d. Sailor White by DQ

Frankie Laine d. John Bonello

Mighty Igor d. The Hangman

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Hall - March 27, 1982

Frankie Laine d. Troy Alexander

John Bonello d. Chris Carter by DQ

Muhammad Saad d. The Patriot

Judy Martin d. Kandi Malloy

Gino Brito & Dominic DeNucci d. Hans Schroeder & Sailor White by DQ

Great Wojo d. Johnny Valiant

Mighty Igor d. The Hangman

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI – Cobo Hall – October 9, 1982

Candi Divine fought Diane Von Hoffman to a draw

Dominic DeNucci & Great Wojo d. Bobby Colt & Don Kent by DQ

Billy Jackson d. Bull Johnson

Bobo Brazil d. Eddy Mansfield

Bruno Sammartino Jr. d. Johnny Valiant

Chris Carter d. John Bonello

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI – March 19, 1983

The Destroyer d. Gerry Ho

Candi Divine d. Diana Von Hoffman

Mighty Igor d. Jerry Graham Jr.

Dino Bravo, Gino Brito, & Dominic DeNucci d. Mr. Hito, Ringo Mercenary, & Johnny Valiant

Billy Robinson d. Bobo Brazil by countout

The Bruiser battled Greg Wojokowski to a double countout

 

Cannon @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Hall - May 7, 1983

Mighty Igor d. Johnny Valiant

Gino Brito d. Sailor White by DQ

Don Kent d. Dominic DeNucci

Jerry Graham Jr. & Great Wojo d. Bobo Brazil & The Bruiser

Billy Robinson d. Jacques Rougeau

 

That's all I got before Vince bought out Cannon.

[Dylan Waco]

I can't imagine any of those shows doing shit at the box office

[Bix]

The Bruiser could have been cajoled by Verne for a limited stake the AWA gates in the town. It's not like he was pulling down anything on his own. Verne was willing to run in other areas with established territories. I still don't know what the story of him running St. Louis in 84 was. I assume that was after Vince swept in there?

Are you going by the local promos? Verne had a stake in the St. Louis office. When Vince paid to get the NWA promotion's TV deal, the NWA promotion ran off a block of WCCW, AWA, and Central States TV with local St. Louis promos.