2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[kjh]

There haven't been a lot of fresh, quality Japanese candidates, and Dave does like to keep things from being too stale.

I'm surprised some Japanese names haven't been added to the ballot, even if it's just guys who have dropped off in the past, as there's so few left. I'm not sure I'd vote for say Takayama or Taue, but I think it'd be useful to get people to stop and think about how Sasaki and Doc match up to others from their era. I'd argue that Doc purely on his Japanese work is a lesser candidate than Akiyama or Taue who aren't even on the ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

What's interesting about Bill Miller is that he is another guy that was probably screwed over some by Dave's AWA blind spot. Miller absolutely belongs in and probably should have been a first class guy. But the AWA is an undercovered and discussed territory and has been for years. I have no doubt if a team like the High Flyers had the exact same body of work and record as a top act/draw in any other territory they would at least have been on the ballot. Blackwell clearly belongs on the ballot. Martel is more controversial and I don't think is a terribly strong candidate based on the AWA, but it's hard to see how he's a worse candidate than Hennig and given the fact that he did some good business in Canada is probably better.

 

As an aside I was re-reading the Buddy Rose obit the other day and Meltzer was dead wrong about Rose being way past his prime in the AWA in 86. The four best guys in the promotion were Rose, Hennig, Bock and Hansen, Rose shows no signs of slowing down and he was hardly "hidden" in tags as he looked great when he had to fly solo whether it be a squash match with someone like Billy Anderson (seriously an awesome squash), a match v. young Jannetty that holds up as one of the best singles matches of Marty's career, or a long Battle Royal where Buddy was a huge emphasis of the match and had to go it alone when Somers got dumped. He also undersold Rose and Somers as a team. Probably not an AWA bias thing per se but worth mentioning in the context of this thread since Rose is one of the guys I strongly feel should be on the ballot.

 

As for Japan I stand by my comments on Tim's show that a WON HoF with KENTA in it and Taue not on the ballot is going to be very bizarre. And I fully expect that to happen.

[Ditch]

I have my doubts about KENTA-but-not-Taue. How many wrestlers who were worse draws/less important than KENTA are in? The case for Danielson obliterates KENTA and I'm not sure Danielson gets in right away, plus there's no way *actual Japanese people* vote KENTA. IE. The Japanese people who are so picky that they turn up their noses at Fujiwara.

[jdw]

What's interesting about Bill Miller is that he is another guy that was probably screwed over some by Dave's AWA blind spot. Miller absolutely belongs in and probably should have been a first class guy. But the AWA is an undercovered and discussed territory and has been for years.

The AWA didn't have anything to do with Miller not getting in the HOF in 1996 or 1997. Guys who headlined a lot of MSG sellouts didn't make it: Backlund. The MSG book wasn't even out at the time.

 

In fact, I suspect 60s & 70s core AWA is better represented in the 1996-97 classes than core 60s & 70s WWWF.

 

WWWF: Rocca & Buddy (frankly *pre* WWWF anyway), Bruno, Superstar

 

AWA: Verne, Mad Dog, Crusher, Brusier, Bock, Stevens (half AWA, half SanFran), Heenan

 

McMahon Sr is in, but including him above is a bit unfair since we can't include Verne twice.

 

I don't want to say "Dave's AWA Blind Spot" is a meme, but... it's a relative weakness that's probably overplayed.

 

Blackwell is an interesting case.

 

Is he a better candidate than Pedro Morales?

 

I think that's one of the problems we all tend to make. Rather than looking for the "best" or the 2-3 best candidates to advocate, we get lost in smaller arguments. If Blackwell is worthy, it really doesn't matter if he goes in now or in 8 years. Clear the field of the best candidates.

 

I get into this conversation with Yohe all the time. He or other historians will have 5 guys they're advocating, and it gets lost in a discussion with Dave. Focus on one, get others to support it, take it to Dave, and there's a chance he'll listen. People need to get strategic and focused, both in advicating for and advicating against.

 

Say what you will about Shawn getting into the HOF, which I always said was going to happen. What we did with are focus was get people to think about what would have otherwise been a total rubber stamp. Basically what happened to Angle the year after Shawn got in. There really wasn't a strong focused set of voices saying the obvious thing: WTF are we voting for a guy in July 2004 who just "debuted" in November 1999 with the WWF? If enough of us had been sharp enough between 2003 to when the ballots went out, we probably could have easily convinced Dave to change the age limit to 40 at that time, and Angle wouldn't have gone on until 2009. At which point he probably still goes in, but there's at least more of a discussion at that point.

 

 

John

[jdw]

Does anyone seriously think Kenta is getting in? Good luck with that...

 

John

[Bix]

Has anyone (who wouldn't seen as hostile...) ever asked Dave why he changed the eligibility requirements *immediately after Angle was inducted*? I can't help but be at least a little cynical about it. Why do it a few months earlier?

[jdw]

I don't think anyone asked. I do think there was a lot of talk about a 5 year vet going in, and in response to it Dave changed it. He knew it was a goof. But Dave tends to be reactive rather than proactive.

 

I think that if some of us voters talked to Dave starting in later 2003 on into early 2004 that the rule needed to be changed before Angle got on the ballot, Dave probably would have bought into it. I think if one got Bruce on board with it, and a handful of folks who weren't going off on it but rather making the reasonable argument (i.e. wrestler needs at least 10 years of being active to really get a feel for them), Dave probably would have listened.

 

This is one where we should have been proactive, and in a polite way. I think he would have reacted to it in advance.

 

Don't know if I was the right one to lead the charge: might have been a point were we weren't getting along.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I think saying the AWA had NOTHING to do with Miller not getting in on one of the first couple of waves and pointing to Backlund not getting in on the first wave as support for that statement is...interesting. I don't think anyone thinks Dave has been fair to Backlund over the years and this is coming from someone that was a Backlund Hater until very recently. I'm not saying Miller didn't get in exclusively because he was an AWA guy. But I think it is possible - perhaps likely - that he was not the radar because of where he made his name.

 

As for KENTA....

 

Would you and Dave have put someone with Angle's career in on the plane ride? Ultimo? Hell even Jericho?

 

I think there will be pressure to get representatives for the 00's in from both the U.S. and Japan. As more voters are brought in it is obvious the standards have slid over all. I think it's likely that the combination of those three things (lowered standards, a desire for "equity" in representation of eras with some voters/readers, the continued expansion of the voting base) makes it likely that a guy like KENTA will at minimum be treated as a very serious candidate. Much more seriously than Taue has been treated.

 

As for Danielson I'll be shocked if he doesn't get in within three years of being on the ballot at the absolute most.

[jdw]

I think saying the AWA had NOTHING to do with Miller not getting in on one of the first couple of waves and pointing to Backlund not getting in on the first wave as support for that statement is...interesting. I don't think anyone thinks Dave has been fair to Backlund over the years and this is coming from someone that was a Backlund Hater until very recently. I'm not saying Miller didn't get in exclusively because he was an AWA guy. But I think it is possible - perhaps likely - that he was not the radar because of where he made his name.

Miller wasn't even an "AWA Guy". He wrestled all over the place, and drew all over the place. Big headliner against Bruno.

 

Neither Dave, nor I, knew a shitload about him. Not a guy I had studied.

 

Think it was the AWA? Explain Carpentier not going in. It was the same reason, which I copped to at the time. Didn't know enough about him. Ed got corrected the next year, as did Longson. Miller didn't have Yohe or others coming out of the woodwork to advocate for him. Ed and Longson did... instantly.

 

Miller just flew under the radar, similar to how Schmidt from the 50s did. By the time Dave started handing out ballots, it was too late to *easily* correct errors like that. Even an error like Backlund was damn near impossible to correct.

 

If you think Miller flew under the radar because some of his career was in the AWA, you're ignoring the rest of his career that flew under the radar. MSG against Bruno flew under. And that guys like Mad Dog and Crusher and Bruiser didn't.

 

That's not even getting to guys like Ivan Koloff who were on Dave's radar via MSG and didn't get in.

 

Dave has some holes here and there about the AWA. He has them about a lot of places. It hasn't had a great deal of impact on the HOF.

 

John

[jdw]

Would you and Dave have put someone with Angle's career in on the plane ride? Ultimo? Hell even Jericho?

I didn't vote for Angle. I don't recall ever voting for Ultimo... never was enthused about his candidacy. Don't think I've ever voted for Y2J... and I'm kind of fond of him for some reason.

 

That answer it?

 

Doesn't mean that Dave wouldn't have put him in anyway. On the other hand, if Angle had been "eligible" in 1996 rather than 2004, having "debuted" in 1991 rather than 1999, I would have used it as an argument to set the age requirement higher. And I'm 100% certain in 1996 that I would have won that argument. I would also have been more than willing to compromise it:

 

* Joshi Age Rule

* Everyone Else Age Rule

 

Because Joshi was the reason for the low age requirement given the old "retire at 25" and careers peaking in the 20-22ish range. By the time a Joshi star got to 35, you *always* we a decade past their peak and had a reasonable grasp of their careers. At the time...

 

I'm sure Dave would have bought that. Whether I could have gotten it to "45 years old or 25 years active"... I don't know. Perhaps. Somewhere I have a spreadsheet buried where I looked at the initial class and the folks who got in the first few years after that to see when they'd hit eligibility. I was generally looking for guys that Dave would have been adament needed to be in "right now" and see if there was a threshold were 40/20 would have been needed to satisfy him, or 45/25 would have worked. I was pretty persuasive back then, and if given an hour or two on that trip to put together a chart for him, I'd hazzard a guess that we'd see the same thing and agree. Especially if Joshi was split off as it's own beast, which would have been very easy.

 

 

I think there will be pressure to get representatives for the 00's in from both the U.S. and Japan. As more voters are brought in it is obvious the standards have slid over all. I think it's likely that the combination of those three things (lowered standards, a desire for "equity" in representation of eras with some voters/readers, the continued expansion of the voting base) makes it likely that a guy like KENTA will at minimum be treated as a very serious candidate. Much more seriously than Taue has been treated.

Puroresu is largely dead, even in US circles. I'm sure there are people like Alan who will pimp him. But older voters aren't really going to give a shit, and I have doubts that Dave is going to advocate him. 60% isn't easy to get, especially as a non-main eventer for a declining company.

 

Taue is a different beast, and I'm don't really think it's worth the headache of linking them.

 

 

 

As for Danielson I'll be shocked if he doesn't get in within three years of being on the ballot at the absolute most.

I posted something on that earlier... probably even in this thread, with a chart of the Workers Of The Year award winners. Suspect I said something to the effect "of course he's going to go in". If someone is gulible enough to think he's not going in, bet him $100. Lock. Probably was after he won that award for the 3rd straight time.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I don't want to get into a protracted argument about this because I think it is largely irrelevant but to clarify:

 

I am not saying Miller exclusively gets in on AWA work. Just that AWA work is a CLEAR strong suit for him.

 

I am not saying Miller was ignored entirely because he had some great years in the AWA. Just that the general lack of knowledge/attention played to the AWA probably hurt him as a guy who was getting a first look - if he even got a first look at all.

 

I am not saying only AWA guys were blind spots. Not sure where that was implied by anything I've said. Showing that Backlund or Carpentier didn't get in the first time is hardly evidence that Miller not getting in the first time didn't have something to do with the fact that his AWA run was ignored/unknown.

 

I am not saying Meltzer is alone in having "some holes" about the AWA. Shit I had and still have some holes about the AWA. Most smart fans do. It's not a territory that has been talked up or explored in great depth to near the degree Crockett, WW(W)F, World Class, Memphis, Stampede or arguably even Georgia and Florida have been over the years.

 

Mostly I think this is pointless. Miller is in. We both agree he should be.

 

Blackwell is not on the ballot. I believe he definitely should be. I think the High Flyers should be too but I have no illusions that that can be done or that they wouldn't immediately fall off the ballot. Seems like a wasted effort. Blackwell doesn't.

 

Not sure if he's a better candidate than Morales by the way. But then I think Morales is a pretty good candidate.

[Dylan Waco]

Puro isn't dead in UK circles. UK circles make up a shitload of the Figure-Four crowd. If I were to hazard a guess more and more will get votes over time. I find it VERY hard to believe no puro guys get in from the 00's. Mind you I can't think of one that I would vote for. But that's irrelevant. I'm not representative of the majority of WON/F4W types. You've got to figure KENTA and CIMA both get on the ballot off the top of my head. Not sure who else. I hope you are right about this John, I'm just not as sure you are that the old guard can hold off the young turks. Especially if someone starts talking "affirmative action" style campaigns for guys from certain places in certain areas (this was a line pushed by Todd Martin and others to support Michaels).

[Bix]

Well, if Sasaki ever gains steam, he made his case in the aughts and is a better candidate than the juniors with all capital roman letter names.

[jdw]

I don't want to get into a protracted argument about this because I think it is largely irrelevant but to clarify:

 

I am not saying Miller exclusively gets in on AWA work. Just that AWA work is a CLEAR strong suit for him.

 

I am not saying Miller was ignored entirely because he had some great years in the AWA. Just that the general lack of knowledge/attention played to the AWA probably hurt him as a guy who was getting a first look - if he even got a first look at all.

He got a look: he was in the book. Could pull it off the shelf and point to the page.

 

Lack of knowledge of the AWA had nothing to do with it. Lack of knowledge of his headlining in the WWWF would have had as much to do with it.

 

 

I am not saying only AWA guys were blind spots. Not sure where that was implied by anything I've said. Showing that Backlund or Carpentier didn't get in the first time is hardly evidence that Miller not getting in the first time didn't have something to do with the fact that his AWA run was ignored/unknown.

I keep pointing to AWA guys who got in, and how there were more of them than WWWF guys in the 60s and 70s. You keep ignoring it, which makes me think that not just is the AWA Had Gotten Screwed thing overplayed, but it's a meme that's taking hold that folks don't really want to let go of.

 

I do agree with some of the points you and Kevin make: the AWA has been an under reported, under covered, and under profiled part of the WON through the years.

 

Perhaps some of that is how deaths have broken, with a number of the AWA guys who have died ending up like Bruiser and Stevens where as much of the key parts of their careers happened outside of the AWA as in it. That makes their bios less of a chance for wall-to-wall AWA Stories as say Kerry's was of WCCW. And perhaps when Bock and Verne die, we'll get deeper pieces on the AWA.

 

On the other hand, other than St Louis and New York and the glory days of World Class, what territories have really gotten massive historical coverage through either pieces or obits? World Class is pretty much because of the deaths and the two DVDs. St Louis is because Dave's favorite historian is an obvious mark for St Louis. New York is New York.

 

The AWA hasn't done too bad relative to Los Angeles. Or Florida. Or Georgia. Carolina has some thanks to Wahoo, Flair and some other obits... and because it continued into WCW. But do we know more about the AWA in the 60s or Carolina?

 

Really, what areas can match the core representation that the AWA got into the HOF out of the 60s & 70s?

 

 

I am not saying Meltzer is alone in having "some holes" about the AWA. Shit I had and still have some holes about the AWA. Most smart fans do. It's not a territory that has been talked up or explored in great depth to near the degree Crockett, WW(W)F, World Class, Memphis, Stampede or arguably even Georgia and Florida have been over the years.

World Class has largely been covered in the 80s. The late 60s and into 70s stuff has only been dealt with in Obits, and even then the coverage of the 60s and 70s was glossy.

 

Memphis, GA and Florida in the 60s and 70s? I missed those pieces, other than when focused on single wrestlers in Obits like Mr. Wrestling. The AWA has gotten the same thing.

 

Stampede has largely been dealt with in Obits like Stu and Owen, and tales of guys passing through. Don't recall how detailed of coverage of Bret's book Dave got, or if he took it as a chance to do a bio of Bret.

 

All in all, the AWA hasn't been short changed relative to those places in the WON.

 

St Lou, WWF and Dead WCCW Guys... Dave has written a shitload on that stuff. On other stuff, not so much

 

 

Blackwell is not on the ballot. I believe he definitely should be. I think the High Flyers should be too but I have no illusions that that can be done or that they wouldn't immediately fall off the ballot. Seems like a wasted effort. Blackwell doesn't.

 

Not sure if he's a better candidate than Morales by the way. But then I think Morales is a pretty good candidate.

On the High Flyers, someone needs to make a High Flyers vs Rock 'n' Roll comp. Not in the sense of one being a better candidate, but in the sense that the High Flyers do or don't have some of the characteristics of an anchor babyface tag team for a large territory.

 

Similar to how one makes a Kawada vs Misawa comp. Kawada wasn't Misawa. You don't have to be Misawa to get into the HOF. But what characteristics of the HOF does Kawada and how to they line up with another wrestler who was in / was going to go in.

 

On Blackwell... I don't know who a good comp would be. One wishes Brody were, but:

 

* Blackwell doesn't have the Japan stuff that folks mark out for

 

* it's a comp argument that's instantly "lost"

 

As in, Brody Fans are so high on Brody and so quickly protective of the legend that you can never compare anyone with him other than Stan and perhaps Vader (which is nice for Brody Fan since their eras don't overlap). It's a waste of a comp discussion when it instantly makes the person you're trying to convince ultra defensive: they'll just tune out with the "don't be silly" response.

 

If it's just about getting Blackwell on the ballot, that frankly is easy. But if folks actually think he warrants being in, you gotta drop the "AWA Has Been Screwed" meme and focus arguments in his favor.

 

John

[jdw]

Puro isn't dead in UK circles. UK circles make up a shitload of the Figure-Four crowd. If I were to hazard a guess more and more will get votes over time. I find it VERY hard to believe no puro guys get in from the 00's. Mind you I can't think of one that I would vote for. But that's irrelevant. I'm not representative of the majority of WON/F4W types. You've got to figure KENTA and CIMA both get on the ballot off the top of my head. Not sure who else. I hope you are right about this John, I'm just not as sure you are that the old guard can hold off the young turks. Especially if someone starts talking "affirmative action" style campaigns for guys from certain places in certain areas (this was a line pushed by Todd Martin and others to support Michaels).

I don't think Dave is handing out ballots left and right to "fans", and won't believe it until he creates a "fan" category of voters and we see those numbers go through the roof. Unless those UK folks are in the business, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

Kenta and Cima may get on the ballot. They aren't going to get 60%.

 

I don't recall "affirmative action" campaigns helping Shawn get in. Suspect it was more of Dave handing out more and more ballots over time, especially to people in the business who thought highly of Shawn. The non-Shawn voters became smaller and smaller.

 

That's not likely to impact puroresu. Unless Dave hands out a lot of ballots to guys like Danielsen and Hero who for some reason think Kenta is a HOFer.

 

 

Well, if Sasaki ever gains steam, he made his case in the aughts and is a better candidate than the juniors with all capital roman letter names.

Agree on that. Sasaki has Domes and Matt's laundry list of 10K+ cards that he headlined. That over time is going to sway people who don't know the context of most of that "drawing power". And he does have a lot of hardware, the title in all three promotions, and 7 total reigns. It will be interesting to see if anyone notices that for all three it was in periods of decline, and at least in New Japan's case one could point to his early reigns as the period where the declines started. Perhaps not the cause, but not a help... and really more of a deviding line from the nearly four years of Hashimoto dominance where business was very robust to the decline of the late 90s, and decline again in the 00s. Yeah... I expect that to go right over people's heads. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Sasaki goes in, especially if Dave gets behind it.

 

I don't see Dave getting behind Kenta and Cima.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Really not interested in a protracted, jdw-style argument. You accuse me of ignoring, I think it's pretty clear you are reading my statements wrong on purpose and shaping your argument against a strawman "meme" that has hardly been the theme of the last several pages of the thread.

 

To walk you through again:

 

 

I am not saying Miller exclusively gets in on AWA work. Just that AWA work is a CLEAR strong suit for him.

 

I am not saying Miller was ignored entirely because he had some great years in the AWA. Just that the general lack of knowledge/attention played to the AWA probably hurt him as a guy who was getting a first look - if he even got a first look at all.

 

I am not saying only AWA guys were blind spots. Not sure where that was implied by anything I've said. Showing that Backlund or Carpentier didn't get in the first time is hardly evidence that Miller not getting in the first time didn't have something to do with the fact that his AWA run was ignored/unknown.

 

I am not saying Meltzer is alone in having "some holes" about the AWA. Shit I had and still have some holes about the AWA. Most smart fans do. It's not a territory that has been talked up or explored in great depth to near the degree Crockett, WW(W)F, World Class, Memphis, Stampede or arguably even Georgia and Florida have been over the years.

 

I blame myself for not thwarting this nonsense by adding an extra bullet point. Here it is:

 

I am not saying Dave is totally blind to the existence of HoF talent in the AWA. Obviously people got in on the first run. What I do believe is that Dave and many smart fans in general (if not MOST smart fans) are less interested in the AWA and that that lack of interest does reflect who gets on the ballot. I also think it is at least possible that the general obscurity of Bill Miller had something to do with that lack of interest in the AWA.

 

I actually don't think any of these points of view are controversial or indicative of some sort of all encompassing "Meme" that is supposedly being expressed about how unfairly maligned the AWA is.

 

Read Kevin's notes on Blackwell. Read mine. I am sure you can find flaw with some of it on my end as I'm new to the AWA. There is not a lot of this mythical "Meme" that you seem to be suggesting is a driving force behind all of this.

 

I will say flat out that Miller not getting in in the first run could have nothing to do with the AWA at all. I don't know. I used the word "probably" when perhaps I should have used the word "possibly." Ultimately I don't give enough of a shit to argue about it anymore because we seem to agree in the sense that the crux of my position is:

 

"the AWA has been an under reported, under covered, and under profiled part of the WON through the years."

 

-jdw

 

I would extend this a little bit to the broader smart fan universe but in general this was the point of what I was getting at.

 

Flyers v. RnR's is an interesting comp but a losing comp. It will go nowhere until and unless people are willing to WATCH the High Flyers matches. I think I might put some numbers together for the Flyers when we are closer to the AWA set hitting but I still think it's futile. To be sure there are arguments against them (nowhere near as influential as the other tags that are in/strongly considered, never stars outside of their home territory, were "only" around for 9 years, et.), but there are quite a few arguments for them. I've got an empty house for a few days so if I'm feeling masochist I may go ahead and make some sort of comp to the Express based on limited look at the figures but I'm not convinced that would be an effective approach. I actually think in some respects the RnR's are more of a sacred cow tag team than Brody is a sacred cow big guy which I know sounds strange since he is in and they aren't but I can't help but feel that way.

 

I do agree with you that there may not be a solid comp for Blackwell. I may do a Gordy List for him later for shits and giggles though.

[Dylan Waco]

Looking at that now JYD is another guy who seems like he should at least be a strongly considered candidate - he's never been on the ballot.

[shoe]

I think Kerry Von Erich would be a good comp to JYD. I think Kerry Von Erich is a better candidate than JYD. Kerry drew in Texas,Mid-South, was a big draw in St. Louis, and did well in Japan. Was a former NWA champ when it meant something. Kerry was a better worker than JYD. JYD was a huge draw in Mid-South. He was the #2 face for a while in the WWF. I also thought the Dog meant something in Georgia. To me the Dog's flame burnt out too quick, but can see an argument for him being on the ballot.

[shoe]

Another thing about the Rock N Roll that kinda suprised me was in 93 Observer awards they didn't even finish in the top 10 tag team awards. I can understand not making it in 92 since they were only together for 6 months, but in 93 that's shocking. Especially the team they feuded with for most of the year, the Heavenly Bodies finished 2nd. What I'm getting at is I bet that a lot of the people who vote in the Observer HOF also voted for the year end awards in 93 and snubbed the Rock N Roll. So the Rock N Roll lack of love has been around the Observer for a while. I know they never won tag team of the year. I wonder if they were ever in the top 3 or so. Off the top of my head I can't remember.

[khawk20]

I do agree with you that there may not be a solid comp for Blackwell. I may do a Gordy List for him later for shits and giggles though.

The best way to compare him is probably to find someone else whose career path in the AWA is mimicked by another wrestler in another area. By career path, I mean with a hot debut and a continued ability to be a continuous draw through a changing environment, with different alliances, partners, and feuds, in the same territory.

 

This may be a piece of the definition of a comparable that you're looking for, but in Blackwell's case that may have to be the crux of the whole comparison.

 

I don't know who that wrestler might be.

 

On Dave and the AWA: I think that the older AWA guard that were big in the 60's and 70's is reasonably represented, in so much as Dave saw those guys as much as he would have seen pretty much everyone else (relatively little would be my guess, given the lack of national tv back then and the lack of footage on the stars of the era. We're all in that boat at some point in wrestling history or another depending on our age...). jdw isn't wrong about initial representation of AWA wrestlers compared to other territories from where I sit.

 

From my readings of the WON it has always been clear to me that the AWA was seen in a hugely negative light in the 1984-90 era. If that was the first real tv exposure that Dave ever had to the AWA, it explains a lot...his complaints against the AWA from 84-90 are echoed by many. I also think that part of the problem is that Dave relied on his correspondents from the area to formulate his opinion on the AWA from 84-90. His correspondent(s) never seemed to have many good things to say.

 

If your initial impression of something is negative, it's a more difficult to have your mind changed to a positive impression. As such, the work of a guy like Blackwell from 1980 - 85 has *less* chance of being recognized and championed by Dave and other voters with the same negative impressions of the AWA they may have gained when they started to see the AWA nationally between 1985 and 1990. Buddy Rose is in the same boat insofar as his AWA tag title reign with Doug Somers was seen as a bad joke at the time. Somers being a career jobber-to-low-mid-card guy given the spot with Rose did not help. A lack of quality opponents outside of Jannetty and Michaels did not help. Rose/Somers comparisons to the champs of the WWF and NWA did not help.

 

Was Rose awesome in the AWA? People looking at it with a critical eye 25 years after the fact would likely tell you "yes". The impression at the time that many fans who are possibly now voters would have had would have been less than positive.

In Blackwell's case, his face turn and Brody feud is good on it's own but even better when you know the context of the turn...that context being Blackwell's lengthy time as The Most Hated Man on the AWA Planet.

Hell, even the Brody feud only helps in a limited capacity given the no-shows and the lack of a clean win for Blackwell when all was said and done. Unfortunately, Blackwell could not keep up the schedule he wrestled from 1980 - early 84 because of his health, and that also limited viewers in the post-84 era to what they saw of him.

 

I believe Blackwell is a worthy candidate, but I understand the challenge of getting him elected, as that challenge is the same for anyone not yet in that had a more solid pre-WON career than post-WON career.

[khawk20]

Looking at that now JYD is another guy who seems like he should at least be a strongly considered candidate - he's never been on the ballot.

This ties into my last post in the sense that Dave would need a complete reprogramming of his brain to recognize JYD as a HOF candidate.

 

Dave's hate for "Junkfood Dog" was crazy. No way he recognizes JYD as anything HOF worthy unless a lobotomy is involved.

[kjh]

Well, if Sasaki ever gains steam, he made his case in the aughts and is a better candidate than the juniors with all capital roman letter names.

Agree on that. Sasaki has Domes and Matt's laundry list of 10K+ cards that he headlined. That over time is going to sway people who don't know the context of most of that "drawing power". And he does have a lot of hardware, the title in all three promotions, and 7 total reigns. It will be interesting to see if anyone notices that for all three it was in periods of decline, and at least in New Japan's case one could point to his early reigns as the period where the declines started. Perhaps not the cause, but not a help... and really more of a deviding line from the nearly four years of Hashimoto dominance where business was very robust to the decline of the late 90s, and decline again in the 00s. Yeah... I expect that to go right over people's heads. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Sasaki goes in, especially if Dave gets behind it.

 

I don't see Dave getting behind Kenta and Cima.

Here's the results from last year:

 

Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: Japan (69) (59)

Steve Williams 68 59.6% ----

Kensuke Sasaki 47 41% 57%

George Gordienko 33 29% 32%

Seiji Sakaguchi 26 23% 43%

Kiyoshi Tamura 26 23% 45%

Volk Han 25 22% 39%

Gran Hamada 12 11% 27%

 

Sasaki's already picking up steam as a candidate getting very close in 2009 and only slipping last year due to Doc being added to the ballot. Listening to Todd Martin and Alan4L talk about Sasaki as a candidate a lot of that context has already been lost at least with those two voters. I don't think Alan4L fully understood Matt's analysis (73 points doesn't equal 73 shows over 10,000 fans as a sold out Tokyo Dome show would get 5 points). No discussion of how with the Dome shows in the '90s he'd be usually way down the list of guys responsible for drawing the crowds or how the big drawing Kawada matches was merely the luck of being the champion when the All Japan/NOAH split happened. His success as a freelancer was put over, even though results have been mixed (return to New Japan in 2004 and first couple of NOAH shows in 2005 were big successes, while World Japan was a disaster, there were diminishing returns with his other runs and Kensuke Office hasn't taken off past small show level). The only negative that was brought up was the Hiromitsu Gompei scandal. Todd still thinks he's one of the stronger candidates on the ballot despite knowing the limitations.

[Al]

Williams one vote short? He's going in.

[Ditch]

I don't think you can really say, "well Angle got in, why not KENTA" with a straight face. Angle was a featured star during the tail end of the late '90s/early '00s boom, was a three-time Most Outstanding in WON and one-time Best Technical, headlined several major WWE PPVs as a legit headliner rather than a "we don't have anyone so plug him in with Cena" type guy we get today... I mean clearly he got in way too quickly but it's night-and-day different from the "well he sure is a good worker" and nothing else case for KENTA. That would only hold water if Alan4L was the typical WON voter, and he's not. And even among the younger-puro-fan group Taue is respected and I'd expect would get more Hall of Fame support.

[Dylan Waco]

I actually think Sasaki is a decent candidate from the perspective that as voters have rewarded guys like HHH for being on shows that drew well and positioned to look like real draws when perhaps they weren't, Sasaki "fits" an established mold. I wouldn't vote for him, but he's the sort of guy that I think should be on the ballot as a point of comparison if nothing else.

 

I don't think he's near the candidate Hamada is though.