Dylan Waco Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Vince didn't put a gun to Bret's head and told him to fuck off and negociate with WCW. Once Vince didn't want/think he could honor Bret's contract, they got to terms with each other so that Bret could get a fat contract with the concurrence who, at the time, was kicking WWF's ass. Its funny you picture Vince "fucking" Bret on his contract when in the reality, it's not exactly wat happened. Bret went to get the biggest money deal he ever had in his career instead of the 20 year deal. Seems ok to me. Bret agreed. He could have refused and sue Vince for breach of contract. Vince didn't "shit" on Bret's deal. Bret was ok to go to WCW and get a fat paycheck instead. You are right. I suppose Bret could have sat out, sued Vince, and been tied up in litigation for years...or he could have gone to WCW for immediate guaranteed money. The indisputable, inarguable fact is that Vince signed Bret to a 20 year deal, then backed out of it and told Bret to go to WCW. That fact that Vince didn't want/think he could honor the contract is totally irrelevant. A contract is a contract. That Bret didn't sue Vince is if anything a further indication that Bret is the "good party" in this. And that is coming from someone who is by no means a Bret fan. Vince screwed Bret contractually. It's not really a debatable point. From that screwing came the other screwing. You can't disconnect one from the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Thinking Bret would show up on Nitro with the belt to be a ridiculous idea is not a retroactive opinion. Why are people who think that would happen ignoring that the WWF had lawsuits pending against WCW for stuff like that at the time? So answer this then. You're in Vince's shoes, this is a disaster, what do you do? Do you pull this stunt on someone leaving the company but have the belt or do you sit on your hands and hope it doesn't blow up in your face. Bret throwing the belt in the trash on Nitro would've been a huge blow to a struggling WWF. You go with the original plan to have Bret drop it to Shawn the next month in Springfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slickster Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Better yet, fool everyone by having Hart drop the belt to Shawn at Madison Square Garden the following Saturday. They had already scheduled a 4-way match also involving Austin and Undertaker for that date. Bret loses and gets to say goodbye to the WWE Universe at the Garden. It's a storybook ending. Then, you plug Shamrock into the 4-way for the PPV in Springfield and stuff goes right back on schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 It's weird how people can advocate someone breaking legal contracts and their word based on some phoney-baloney carny logic. Remind me never to enter into any sort of business relationship with you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 What everyone is arguing about with regards to Hart needs to remember is this: He had to give a 30-day notice and, during that time, he was legally bound to working for WWF if the company so chose to use him. His "reasonable creative control" was certainly something Bret could invoke, but that being said, he couldn't use it to refuse to drop the title at any point because then Vince can say "that's unreasonable, you have to drop the belt at some point in this 30-day window." As far as WCW announcing they had signed Bret the Nitro after Survivor Series, it was already becoming common knowledge that Bret was leaving, and it wan't just among the "smart" crowd, so it's not like an announcement on Nitro means that much in the long run. In fact, it may have caused people to tune into Raw any way to see if Bret showed up, and if he did, to keep tuning in wondering how long it would be before he showed up on Nitro. And then those people watching Raw would have seen more of Stone Cold Steve Austin, and as we all know, Austin's rise through the WWF ranks was a key element to WWF turning things around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 For the millionth time, REASONABLE CREATIVE CONTROL WAS DEFINED AS BRET AND VINCE HAVING TO AGREE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 For the millionth time, REASONABLE CREATIVE CONTROL WAS DEFINED AS BRET AND VINCE HAVING TO AGREE. It's probably worth pointing out too that, VINCE BREACHED BRET'S CONTRACT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T AGREE TO GET SCREWED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 If we are capitalizing things, THE WWF HAD A LAWSUIT AGAINST WCW AT THE TIME. TURNER PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED BRET TO COME ON NITRO WITH THE BELT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 For the millionth time, REASONABLE CREATIVE CONTROL WAS DEFINED AS BRET AND VINCE HAVING TO AGREE. Not that I doubt you, but what's the source for this? If Bret could just refuse to do anything, doesn't that render the "reasonable" part meaningless? Anyway, I was a clueless teenage mark in 1997 (the closest I got to inside information was Cornette's "shoot" rants on Raw), and even I knew that Bret was headed to WCW. So I don't think an announcement would have had much impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Interesting notes from the Miami Herald: Bret Hart talked about what was cut from the "Rivalries" DVD with Shawn Michaels in an interview with Scott Fishman of the Miami Herald promoting the forthcoming DVD release. “There was a lot of stuff that didn’t make the cut. I think that maybe it was redundant, but there was more talk about Shawn’s role in things and he went into much more detail about his drug problems, which was what the excuse for his behavior was back then," Hart said That was not shown as much in the DVD. That is fine with me, and I’m not complaining about that. Maybe it was repeated enough times that they didn’t need it in there. It was sort of said in its own way anyway. “Shawn came very honest and upfront that day at the studio. He was very relaxed. We had a lot of pleasantries and easy-going conversations between takes. I felt very comfortable.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 To add to Bix's point... Bret agreed to drop the title. Vince actually agreed with Bret on dropping the title, and when. And got WCW to allow Bret to stay on to do it. Bret never said "I'm never going to drop the title". He agreed to drop the title. He offered up a number of reasonable ways to drop the title. Several of which Vince at various times said he agreed with as the way to go. The two (along with lawyers getting involved if I recall a certain letter/fax that went to Bret before Montreal that Dave has referenced) came up with more than one reasonable ways to do it. In the end, Vince fixated on one thing: Shawn beating Bret for the title, and then doing it in Montreal. People are grasping at straws. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I need to dig up my old Photobucket account, but I have a pic of the Clique and the BSK hanging out together (Steve Austin is in the group shot as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 If we are capitalizing things, THE WWF HAD A LAWSUIT AGAINST WCW AT THE TIME. TURNER PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED BRET TO COME ON NITRO WITH THE BELT.This never gets mentioned enough. But even beside that, the "Bret could take the belt to Nitro" comment is monumentally retarded, for one simple reason : Vince owned the belt. Despite the old carny stuff about the champion always possessing the belt, the fact is that it was WWF property. All Vince had to do was tell Bret that he couldn't carry the belt around for the last couple of weeks, that Federation officials would be transporting it and Hart was only allowed to put his hands on it during the course of the shows. Now admittedly that probably would've been something that an old-fashioned dude like Bret would've been awfully whiny about, but once again it wasn't his belt. Being identified as champion (aka, the best there ever etcetera) was the important part to Bret, not the prop he wore around his waist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Interesting pic since there was little overlap of Austin and Hall/Nash given: * their jump to WCW * Hall's dope suspension in early 1996 John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Also interesting in that Austin is already shaved bald so that narrows the time frame even more. He came into the WWF with hair. Maybe this was after the MSG show in May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 When was Hall suspended? Austin shaved his head completely pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Mid February - mid April, I think. Not sure if he worked house shows before the Vader match at In Your House. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Gerry Brisco was in the BSK? Or secret Clique member? Awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I wish there were photos of the times Vince got trashed with the boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I need to dig up my old Photobucket account, but I have a pic of the Clique and the BSK hanging out together (Steve Austin is in the group shot as well). Yup, that's the one! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Austin debuted at a 12/18/95 tv taping: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU2jwdTlzjg That's poor quality, so two nights later, though it aired in January: This was taped 01/23/96 after the Rumble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rnXoI_flCY So he had the buzz cut hair at that point. This is Austin in one of his last Ringmaster appearances, taped 02/19/96: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x843a9_ma...master-su_sport Shaved head at that point. Hall was suspended from after the 02/20/96 Superstars taping (i.e. those same set of taping cards) and returned after Mania for the Euro tour on 04/07/96. Last night for Hall and Nash was the famous MSG card on 05/19/96. So possibly sometime between 01/23 - 02/20 or 04/07 - 05/19. Real narrow window. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Also, that's assuming that Hall would just sit home during his suspension. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for him to show up at the bar afterwards despite not working the show, especially for such a legendary party animal. Maybe they were running a show close to his home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I suspect they did send him home for the suspension. No one wants to fly into a city where there's a show on their own dime just to hang out with the boys, and it's unlikely he was following the boys around from city to city. Scott has a pretty fair track record over the years of getting caught doing stupid stuff away from the boys on his days off. He also knew he would be back for a last round of jobs before he and Nash were gone, and probably even when: after Mania. Nice little thing on Vince's part to screw him out of his Mania PPV bonus, and pull the Dust-Razor match and turn it into Piper-Dust. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 He also knew he would be back for a last round of jobs before he and Nash were gone, and probably even when: after Mania. Nice little thing on Vince's part to screw him out of his Mania PPV bonus, and pull the Dust-Razor match and turn it into Piper-Dust.That apparently didn't happen. In his Timeline of the WWF: 1997 for Kayfabe Commentaries Jim Cornette mentions that Vince paid Nash the same as Undertaker and Hall the same as Goldust for WMXII (even though Hall wasn't on the card). Asked why, Vince replied "I don't want anybody to say I fucked 'em on the way out." It's a three-hour DVD and I've not tracked it down in fifteen minutes of dipping in and out of it but Googling the key term has brought up an interview from 2000: Wrestling Perspective: Does this mean Verne Gagne's on the payroll? Jim Cornette: He may be one of the only ones that ain't. Vince McMahon is to the point where when Scott Hall and Kevin Nash left by faxing a notice after they promised they were staying and blah, blah, blah and that whole story's been well documented, he could have paid them anything he wanted to for that last Wrestlemania. He not only gave them an excellent pay-off, he gave more at least to one of them, he gave them more than the guy he worked with as a bonus because he wanted to say, "They can't truthfully say I fucked them on the way out." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think Corny is a little confused over what was documented. I don't recall any reports at the time that Vince thought they were going to stay because he knew just how huge the offer from WCW was. Hell, I think Wade had stuff going back a while before notice was given that Hall & Nash were going. It would have been very hard for Vince to give Nash a shitty payoff: he was in the second most pushed match on the card opposite Taker. If you don't give Nash the standard PPV bonus (and at the time he was roughly the same level of star in the WWF as Taker), you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit, especially from a lockeroom lawyer like Nash. I don't at all believe Cornette on Hall getting a standard Mania bonus. I think Corny is wrong on all three, and it's not like he had a lot of love for Nash or probably Hall by that point. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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