WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Dylan Waco]

Setting aside the business model argument which I'm not qualified to take on (and frankly Dave isn't either), most of his major criticisms of Daddy could be applied to HHH who Dave went bonkers over during his time on the ballot as a guy who people would have to make massive leaps of logic to keep out.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's pretty clear that Dave doesn't know much about England or what it was like during the late 70s-early 80s both socially and economically. He doesn't seem to understand how the territory worked at all and his whole argument is based on the period after Big Daddy drew not the few years when things were going gangbusters (for the promoters, not the workers.) His business model argument is ridiculous considering the venue size for the high paying Baba jobs. Japanese business from the same era must have been shit by Dave's standards.

[NintendoLogic]

Let's not get carried away here. HHH is a far stronger candidate than Big Daddy in every way.

[Dylan Waco]

Let's not get carried away here. HHH is a far stronger candidate than Big Daddy in every way.

No one said he wasn't, though in terms of being the biggest draw/most over act in nation of origin Daddy is ahead of Trip, so I don't think "in every way" is an accurate way of pointing to the disparity in candidacies. That reminds me I got a good laugh out of Dave burying fame/cultural relevance as an HoF quality, when he indisputably uses that as a tool to push his favorites like Ventura, Albano, et. every year.

 

My point is that if you look at many of Dave's general criticisms of Daddy they apply to HHH as well (got disproportionately massive push due to family connections, was seen as big draw but actually hurt business when he became primary star, only drew in that one place where his family ran the show). Yet Dave went out of his way to push HHH as an obvious candidate the first time he popped up on the ballot.

 

For the record I'm not saying HHH shouldn't be in or that Daddy should be in. Just pointing out that the criticisms Dave lobs are the sort of criticisms he considered absurd when they were applied to The Game.

[Loss]

If Dave doesn't understand the business model in England at the time, then it's up to people who do understand it to explain it in a way where others can understand it. I haven't seen that happen, but maybe I haven't looked in the right place.

[ragemaster]

The wrestling heritage site make’s reference to Shirley Crabtree early career, where he wrestled as the blond Adonis, Mr universe, Yukon Eric, and the Battling Guardsman. He was also the independent promoters British heavyweight Champion in the early 1960’s. I cant find any more info on his early career, but it look’s like he had two runs in wrestling. It may help his case if we could find more info on his first run.

[ohtani's jacket]

If Dave doesn't understand the business model in England at the time, then it's up to people who do understand it to explain it in a way where others can understand it. I haven't seen that happen, but maybe I haven't looked in the right place.

Dave has clearly read John Lister's stuff (along with other British historians, presumably.) He should know that Joint Promotions made their money running upwards of 40 shows a week and that the wrestlers never got a big cut of the gate or the TV money. The way the territory worked (or the "territories" to be more accurate) was that workly nightly at the local clubs paid more than a day job and working for Joint Promotions paid more than the clubs, but of course there was more money to made overseas. That's hardly surprising. Ignoring the rising inflation and unemployment at the end of the 70s that gave rise to Thatcherism, it's common sense to anyone with an inkling of knowledge about the UK that there's more money to be made in the States in just about any pursuit bar football and that continues until this very day. It's like arguing why British actors try to make it in Hollywood or why British singers try to crack the American market. Besides, before the lighter weight wrestlers started leaving for North America and Japan a lot of the heavyweights would do the South Africa/Japan/Germany/India tours and only appear on British television a couple of times a year. That strikes me as no different from guys who would move around the North American territories, no?

 

There were some bigger venues in the UK than just 400 seat town halls. The Royal Albert Hall filled 5,500 and there were some other bigger venues such as the Tooting Granada cinema, the Nottingham and Paisley Ice Rinks, Kelvin Hall in Glasgow, Belle Vue in Manchester and St.James Hall in Newcastle. If you check these venues it wasn't just wrestling that played at these buildings but Sinatra and everybody else. England, like the rest of the world in the 50s, 60s and 70s, didn't have huge indoors arenas like the United States of America. Football grounds were occasionally used in British wrestling history, but weren't very weather friendly. Japanese promotions used similar sized venues throughout the country in the same time frame, but Dave seems to ignore that because the pay-offs were better and more stars travelled there. He seems confused by the notion that there wasn't one big arena in London where most of the shows took place as with the larger American territories. What's the difference between London and Tokyo? Nobody was basing themselves out of Sumo Hall or Budokan in the 50s-70s. And as for Mexico, how much was the peso worth to the sterling pound? Mexico works on the sheer basis of volume and has had its up and down drawing periods. EMLL was not a big drawing promotion in the 80s, was it not a major company? And it wasn't exactly a magnet for foreign stars, no moreso than anywhere else.

 

The deal with Big Daddy is that business was bad for Joint Promotions for much of the 70s. Daddy gave them a short boost in popularity in the late 70s but it petered out by around '81. After that, things went into an irreversible decline as far as the TV era was concerned. The workers started leaving for Brian Dixon's promotion from around the period that Joint Promotions got a five year renewal on their ITV deal and continued their monopoly. That was actually more relevant than workers going overseas because guys leaving for abroad had always been the case even if it was for months at a time. If we consider Daddy a fad, you have to look at the short drawing period he had around '78-80 or however long it was, which is comparable to other fads like the Beauty Pair, Tiger Mask, Crush Girls, etc. I don't really care for Daddy as a candidate, but Dave is stupid to crap on England as a territory.

[NintendoLogic]

Shouldn't the fact that Daddy's peers and UK wrestling historians, who presumably understand the business model, uniformly despise the guy count for something?

[ragemaster]

I think one of the big problem’s is, who are the UK wrestling Historians, correct me if I'm wrong, but how many have actually followed the scene though the 50’s 60’s 70’s and 80’s. I would guess most of them are in their mid 30’s and their knowledge amounts to reading dynamite’s book, the wrestling by Simon Garfield and watching repeat’s of world of sport on the wrestling channel.

[ohtani's jacket]

There are a lot of older fans floating about on the various British wrestling sites as well as quite a few of the workers.

 

Being universally despised is probably why he'll never be voted in, dunno if it's a criteria for not voting him in. I just want Dave to take Europe more seriously.

[ragemaster]

The problem is the history of UK wrestling hasn't been recorded, there very little known about any UK based wrestler. The latest wrestling observer with the history piece on Jerry Lawler is a case in point. Could any of the UK historians write a piece on on any UK wrestler, as in-depth as the piece done on Lawler was.

[kjh]

My point is that if you look at many of Dave's general criticisms of Daddy they apply to HHH as well (got disproportionately massive push due to family connections, was seen as big draw but actually hurt business when he became primary star, only drew in that one place where his family ran the show). Yet Dave went out of his way to push HHH as an obvious candidate the first time he popped up on the ballot.

The difference is HHH is heralded by Dave for his great instincts and timing as a worker, whereas Daddy was one of the worst workers to ever get over as a headlining act. I do think the problem with Daddy as a candidate is that a lot of people can't put his lack of working ability to one side and objectively assess the positives he brought to the table. He's the British Junkfood Dog / Anabolic Warrior of the ballot in Dave's eyes I think.

 

The latest wrestling observer with the history piece on Jerry Lawler is a case in point. Could any of the UK historians write a piece on on any UK wrestler, as in-depth as the piece done on Lawler was.

John Lister wrote a very good four page article about Jackie Pallo in Fighting Spirit Magazine recently that would make a good foundation for the sort of more in depth piece you're looking for ragemaster.

[ragemaster]

The latest wrestling observer with the history piece on Jerry Lawler is a case in point. Could any of the UK historians write a piece on on any UK wrestler, as in-depth as the piece done on Lawler was.

John Lister wrote a very good four page article about Jackie Pallo in Fighting Spirit Magazine recently that would make a good foundation for the sort of more in depth piece you're looking for ragemaster.

 

 

Thanks for the info, i try and track down a copy

[Dylan Waco]

Shouldn't the fact that Daddy's peers and UK wrestling historians, who presumably understand the business model, uniformly despise the guy count for something?

Yes, but it shouldn't count for everything. A wrestler's motivations for disliking someone can range from "he didn't know the difference between an O'Conner roll and a sunset flip" to "he killed the territory." And they aren't always right and are likely to be skewed for reasons of self interest among other things.

 

On UK historians? Well it's not altogether clear to me that Dave knows or talks to that many. I'm sure one could find UK wrestling historians and/or people around from the era who regard Daddy as a lock. I have no clue what Lister's opinion on him is (Edit: turns out he vehemently opposes him) and I know Kenny McBride thinks he's a shit candidate, but I doubt very much the consensus to a man is "Big Daddy is a horrid candidate" among UK fans, wrestlers, historians.

 

I do think this may be case where hardcore fans and casual fans have have a DRASTICALLY different view of someone historically.

[Dylan Waco]

My point is that if you look at many of Dave's general criticisms of Daddy they apply to HHH as well (got disproportionately massive push due to family connections, was seen as big draw but actually hurt business when he became primary star, only drew in that one place where his family ran the show). Yet Dave went out of his way to push HHH as an obvious candidate the first time he popped up on the ballot.

The difference is HHH is heralded by Dave for his great instincts and timing as a worker, whereas Daddy was one of the worst workers to ever get over as a headlining act. I do think the problem with Daddy as a candidate is that a lot of people can't put his lack of working ability to one side and objectively assess the positives he brought to the table. He's the British Junkfood Dog / Anabolic Warrior of the ballot in Dave's eyes I think.

 

 

There are plenty of differences between them, but when Dave was touting HHH as a candidate it was almost always based on drawing power. When people (yourself included as I recall) pointed out things like the criticism's he now applies to Daddy's candidacy he would dismiss them as nonsense, people being shortsighted, people holding him to an impossible standard, et.

[Bix]

"he didn't know the difference between an O'Conner roll and a sunset flip"

Perfectly valid reason to not vote for someone IMO.

[kjh]

There are plenty of differences between them, but when Dave was touting HHH as a candidate it was almost always based on drawing power. When people (yourself included as I recall) pointed out things like the criticism's he now applies to Daddy's candidacy he would dismiss them as nonsense, people being shortsighted, people holding him to an impossible standard, et.

That's true and that thread did include me. I think that shows the difference between a candidate he likes the work of and one he really doesn't. Meltzer's Daddy argument against him for the HOF basically started with "God no, he sucked, he was a joke". I think if he had been a good worker, Meltzer would probably have overlooked the other shortcomings.

[NintendoLogic]

The thing is, there's only a handful of HOFers who are in based solely on drawing power. Does Daddy compare favorably to any of them?

 

Again, we're talking about someone who had no good matches, only drew a handful of big houses, never got over in any promotion that wasn't owned by his brother, and was instrumental in killing wrestling in his country, but is a household name in that country. Should name recognition alone be enough to get you into the Hall of Fame?

[Dylan Waco]

The thing is, there's only a handful of HOFers who are in based solely on drawing power. Does Daddy compare favorably to any of them?

 

Again, we're talking about someone who had no good matches, only drew a handful of big houses, never got over in any promotion that wasn't owned by his brother, and was instrumental in killing wrestling in his country, but is a household name in that country. Should name recognition alone be enough to get you into the Hall of Fame?

I'm past the point of arguing hard one way or the other for Euro candidates (excluding DeGlane who I think should be in).

 

Having said that I don't think the argument about drawing power is really framed correctly. There may only be a handful of guys in on drawing power alone, but there are a ton of guys that would be in on drawing power lone if they didn't happen to have other plusses. Guys like Hogan, Andre, Londos, Santo, Rikidozan, The Sheik (who could argue IS in on drawing power alone), Takada, Onita, Rocca, Bruno, Austin, The Rock, Watson, Robert, Fargo, et, et, et. There are a shit ton of guys you could argue for entirely as drawing cards where everything else is icing.

 

Is Daddy in that category? I honestly have no clue. On the surface it sure doesn't seem like it, but on the surface only a handful of guys have his cultural significance. I wouldn't vote for Daddy at this point, but I don't think I'd vote for any of the Brits and I think what someone needs to do is show why Daddy is a worse candidate than McManus, Pallo, George Kidd, Saint, Breaks, Rocco, Jones, Nagasaki, or whoever else is being pimped. Because right now it's tough for someone who lives over here to figure out why a guy who pretty much everyone concedes is the most well known wrestling name in the history of the country shouldn't go in, but a guy who had some overrated matches with Tiger Mask should.

 

I will say that I think it's interesting how much Daddy talk there is relative to how much Colon talk there is when Colon has more positives, far more and bigger figures to support his claim to be a huge draw, and far fewer clear negatives. I guess this may all come down to "Brody" but I'd like to think it doesn't.

[NintendoLogic]

At the risk of opening up that can of worms, I would guess that most Dynamite Kid boosters don't think the Tiger Mask matches are overrated. At the very least, they would argue that the only relevant barometer is how the matches were received at the time.

 

And yeah, Colon pretty much does come down to Brody. I suppose you could argue how relevant that should be post-Benoit.

[Dylan Waco]

I was talking about Rocco, not DK. I am indifferent to DK being in, though I think he is one of the weakest guys in the Hall.

[ohtani's jacket]

Daddy's role in killing wrestling in Britain is overstated. Joint Promotions were struggling before the short term boost they got from Daddy. It wasn't as though Daddy killed the golden goose. As much as I love 70s WoS a lot of it is guys in their 50s who were 1960s television stars. They weren't doing great business pre-Daddy. Besides which, every territory died a similar death, what makes Britain so special?

[kjh]

From what I've read about them, McManus and Pallo were stronger candidates than Daddy, as they were almost as well known as him in the culture at their peak, drew better ratings, had more longevity as headlining acts, were better workers, not tarred with the brush of killing the business, etc. Agreed about Rocco being a weak candidate.

 

Really British wrestling was going to be done when the WWF/WCW offered their tapes with better production values to the local stations at cheaper rates than any British promotion could make them for, especially when American culture transplants so easily to the UK. Meltzer talks a lot about Jarrett holding out till the mid 90s in Memphis, but it's not like the British scene completely died as soon as the WWF first stepped foot on our shores. All Star Wrestling did OK until Kendo Nagasaki retired in 1993.

[GSR]

From what I've read about them, McManus and Pallo were stronger candidates than Daddy, as they were almost as well known as him in the culture at their peak, drew better ratings, had more longevity as headlining acts, were better workers, not tarred with the brush of killing the business, etc. Agreed about Rocco being a weak candidate.

I don't know enough about Pallo to comment on him, but I have come round to the belief that McManus is a stronger candidate than Daddy.

[Dylan Waco]

On the subject of Colon (not that anyone really cares to talk about it) if you look at Matt Farmer's research on 10k plus shows he does really, really, really well by that metric. That's a metric I find to be flawed and I want to see the particulars on these cards but look at this.

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...ic;f=7;t=000513

 

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Gene & Ole Anderson {20}

The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) {4}

Red Bastien {11}

Pepper Gomez {32}

Ray Gunkel {0}

Dick Hutton {10}

Hans Schmidt {22}

Kinji Shibuya {30}

Wilbur Snyder {35}

John Tolos {35}

Enrique Torres {29}

Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff {5}

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods {8}

 

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Batista {133}

Edge {129}

Owen Hart {44}

Curt Hennig {59}

Ivan Koloff {72}

Fabulous Moolah {2}

Pedro Morales {82}

Dick Murdoch {31}

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) {27}

Sabu {3}

Sgt. Slaughter {86}

Jimmy Snuka {52}

Sting {81}

Mr. Wrestling II {35}

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES

George Gordienko {5}

Gran Hamada {28}

Volk Han {6} includes MMA/Shoot

Seiji Sakaguchi {19}

Kensuke Sasaki {73}

Kiyoshi Tamura {19} includes MMA/Shoot

Steve "Dr. Death" Williams {34}

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Perro Aguayo Jr. {92}

Atlantis {127}

Cien Caras {120}

Karloff Lagarde {21}

Blue Panther {76}

L.A. Park {67}

Huracan Ramirez {12}

Vampiro {73}

Villano III {76}

Dr. Wagner Jr. {112}

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES

Big Daddy {3}

Henri DeGlane {28}

Horst Hoffman {2}

Mick McManus {0}

Kendo Nagasaki {0}

Jackie Pallo {0}

Rollerball Mark Rocco {2}

Johnny Saint {0}

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES

Spyros Arion {22}

Carlos Colon {89}

King Curtis Iaukea {7}

Mark Lewin {13}

 

The only guys ahead of him are Batista, Edge, Aguayo Jr., Atlantis, Cien Caras and Dr. Wagner Jr. Of those guys Batista and Edge obviously benefit tons by the change in era's and where they work - no one seriously argues that either was an HoF level draw. Aguayo Jr. is a modern guy who also benefits some from more figures being available and you could also say that Wagner and even Atlantis stats are somewhat padded by that. Caras is the one guy of the group who I would say is the most closely comparable in terms of the relative situations and I think Caras should definitely be in. Colon is ahead of Uncle Ivan, Pedro, Sarge, Panther, Sasaki and Sting. Obviously there are major differences between those guys and Colon in terms of their relative situations and you could argue for both sides of each comparison having advantages. But from what I know it is much easier to get figures for the careers of all of those guys sans maybe Koloff.

 

Here is a quick list of shows that he headlined of note also courtesy of Farmer.

 

7/22/78 Carlos Colon vs Victor Jovica/ Bruno Sammartino vs Gorilla Monsoon WWC North American Title Change Juan Ramon Loubriel Stadium, Bayamon PR 25,000* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon & Gino Marella)

 

1980 Carlos Colon & Dory Funk Jr & Mighty Igor & Bobo Brazil wrestled at the National Stadium, Lagos Nigeria. Power Mike's promotion started airing old Eddie Einhorn tapes and sold out the stadium. Which holds 45,000 people

 

1/06/81 Harley Race vs Carlos Colon- NWA Title Roberto Clemente Coliseum, San Juan PR 23,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon & Gino Marella)

 

9/17/83 Carlos Colon vs Harley Race- WWC Universal Title vs NWA Title/ Pedro Morales vs Ric Flair- WWC North American Title/ Andre the Giant vs Abdullah the Butcher (10th Anniversary) Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 27,000* (Some estimates as high as 32,000. Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

12/18/83 Carlos Colon vs Ric Flair- WWC Universal Title Cage Match Juan Ramon Loubriel Stadium, Bayamon PR 23,000* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

9/14/84 Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs Carlos Colon & Abdullah the Butcher- AJ Tag Title (11th Anniversary) Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 29,383* (Announced as 34,383 $230,000 Thousands Turned Away. Gate Record. Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

9/21/85 Ric Flair vs Hercules Ayala- NWA Title/ Abdullah the Butcher vs Carlos Colon- WWC Universal Title/ Road Warriors (Hawk & Animal) vs Fabulous Ones (Steve Keirn & Stan Lane) (12th Anniversary) Hiram Bithorn Stadium, San Juan PR 25,000* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

9/21/86 Ric Flair vs Invader #1- NWA Title/ Terry Funk vs Carlos Colon- WWC Universal Title (13th Anniversary) Hiram Bithorn Stadium, San Juan PR 22,300* (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

11/26/87 Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala- WWC Title Figure Four Match Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 22,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

1/30/88 Carlos Colon vs Iron Sheik- WWC Universal Title Chicky Starr Suspended in Cage Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 25,000* (Some Reported as 30,000* Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

8/23/88 Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala- WWC Universal Title Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 23,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon)

 

Everyone of those is one of the top ten drawing shows of its respective year. The majority of them are top five. I would not be shocked to find other top ten finishes from the 90's.

 

The only argument against Colon is that he was only a star in his territory, but a star of that magnitude should be in, especially when he's promoting the shows too.