WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm working on that Abdul the Turk retrospective now. Think he could have been a top heel if he'd gone over at "The Punchout in Plymouth" back in 1948.

 

[blueminister]

Sting had 10 years to get over to a massive degree. Goldberg took less than one year of beating Jerry Flynn 20 times and Jackhammering Reis to become a bigger star than Sting ever was. Then after a couple years of inactivity came into WWF and was still a bigger star than Sting ever was. Nobody is arguing for Goldberg's inclusion into the HOF, but to me he seems like a way more worthwhile candidate than Sting.

You're ignoring that wrestling's a cooperative performance art and not a sport, so the fact that Sting didn't single-handedly become a national phenomenon in a bad promotion is not necessarily a damning measure of his worth as a performer.

 

To use counter-examples from other performance arts: despite being given starring vehicles funded by major Hollywood studios, Brad Pitt didn't become a megastar until 1994. This sort of Gordy Lister logic would suggest that Brad Pitt was not good at his job until 1994, when in fact we should be considering that Sting is a guy that spent the majority of his career starring in the wrestling version of Cool World but when tested with non-destructive angles passed with flying colors. There's no reason to treat his ability as a performer or draw as merely theoretical when he was a critical part of one of wrestling's hugest and best-drawing angles. Orson Welles could be dismissed as a guy with a "single good year" for Touch of Evil who invariably failed during the multiple times he was pushed on top. This is, of course, nonsense indicative of an overly-exclusive and arbitrary approach to quantifying worth that pretends it's anything but.

 

Goldberg found wrestling's version of overnight success in an already molten hot promotional environment -- created with the help of, uh, Sting -- a luxury a handful of wrestlers have had and certainly one Sting didn't have in the late 80s and early 90s. Sting was tasked with lifting dead weight, Goldberg was carried on shoulders. No one find success in a vacuum, and the idea that building a monster aura was a trick that Goldberg had to perform all by himself not once but twice is laughable.

[blueminister]

Everyone knows that a possible Sting appearance was a big part of Nitro/WCW for 97. This is the best Sting in the chase/challenger role he ever had. But to imply that he was carrying the promotion by himself during the period is comical. And if you aren't implying that you need to explain what your "centerpiece bit" was all about.

He wasn't carrying the promotion by himself, it is not even necessary to my argument that he carried the promotion by himself.

[Loss]

So do you consider Nash a HOF candidate? Is Sting a demonstrably better candidate than Nash?

[blueminister]

No, because Nash was the author of the majority of his failures, those failures were ultimately disastrous to the industry, and there's little room to dispute that. I think hypothetically that Nash would have been worth considering if he only had the WWF champ run and 1996-98 to his name though.

 

Sting is demonstrably a better candidate because he never had a decisive role in wrecking a company that had every reason to succeed.

[evilclown]

No, because Nash was the author of the majority of his failures, those failures were ultimately disastrous to the industry, and there's little room to dispute that. I think hypothetically that Nash would have been worth considering if he only had the WWF champ run and 1996-98 to his name though.

 

Sting is demonstrably a better candidate because he never had a decisive role in wrecking a company that had every reason to succeed.

Nash's role in WCW's demise is hugely overstated and his role in their success generally undersold. I'd think he's a better candidate than Sting based on 96-98 alone.

 

I'm working on that Abdul the Turk retrospective now. Think he could have been a top heel if he'd gone over at "The Punchout in Plymouth" back in 1948.

Discussion of a historical wrestling Hall of Fame shouldn't be any broader in scope than the wrestling you grew up on? Got it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Do listen to yourself evilclown, your pomposity in the last few posts has been borderline ridiculous.

[blueminister]

I agree on "Nash undersold for nWo success" point for the same reasons I find myself stanning for Sting -- there were no interchangeable parts in that angle and Nash was one of the few wrestlers frankly intelligent enough to understand the importance of what was going down, how to handle himself in the WCW booking environment, and how to present himself for maximum effect.

 

As a performer Nash is a personal favorite of mine, but if we're counting someone's failures against them -- as we're apparently doing with Bischoff -- even as the fourth of fifth guy on the "who killed WCW" list I don't see how he makes it.

[Dylan Waco]

Do listen to yourself evilclown, your pomposity in the last few posts has been borderline ridiculous.

How is it being pompous? There are guys like Gordienko who had far worse problems related to even getting booked, then anything Renegade or Luger envisioned.

 

I often disagree with evilclown, but I don't see how he is off base here at all.

[NintendoLogic]

Sting is demonstrably a better candidate because he never had a decisive role in wrecking a company that had every reason to succeed.

Sting for HOF: he never had a decisive role in wrecking a company!

 

Do listen to yourself evilclown, your pomposity in the last few posts has been borderline ridiculous.

More pompous than deciding that something isn't worth discussing if it didn't happen in 80s WWF or 90s WCW?

[Dylan Waco]

I agree on "Nash undersold for nWo success" point for the same reasons I find myself stanning for Sting -- there were no interchangeable parts in that angle and Nash was one of the few wrestlers frankly intelligent enough to understand the importance of what was going down, how to handle himself in the WCW booking environment, and how to present himself for maximum effect.

 

As a performer Nash is a personal favorite of mine, but if we're counting someone's failures against them -- as we're apparently doing with Bischoff -- even as the fourth of fifth guy on the "who killed WCW" list I don't see how he makes it.

I think Sting is a better candidate than Nash for the simple fact that Sting was the top face in the U.S. for a year in a company that was very successful and I tend to think he was a much better (and generally underrated) worker than Nash. Nash at his peak was the clear number two (if not three counting Bischoff) in the heel pecking order.

 

I would like someone to make the case that the single year in question should be enough to push Sting over the top as a hall of famer. I would even be willing to grant for the sake of argument that it was a "centerpiece" year (even though i don't believe it for a second and see no reason to support that theory at all).

 

This goes to the point about Sting as a draw. You say there is no reason to doubt that he was a performer who drew based on the fact that he was part of this historic angle/period where wrestling blew up. But no one has been able to cite any other examples of Sting drawing before or since, outside of a few references to good tv ratings during a period where ratings were not even close to being the be all and end all. No one even tries to dispute the fact that Sting - the draw who can not be doubted - couldn't draw worth a shit v. Flair. All we get is "well the promotion was booked like dogshit." Well okay that sucks, but it doesn't change facts.

 

There are a lot of people - myself included - who don't think Paul Orndorff was interchangeable and the perfect foil for Hogan during a period where wrestling exploded. It was a record setting feud, that greatly helped establishing new markets and solidifying the national expansion. This was a feud they went to more than once it was so successful. Mania, The Big Event, key SNME's, major house shows, et were all either built around this feud or this feud was a heavily, heavily featured aspect.

 

Is Sting a better candidate than Orndorff (who had more pre-prime positives than Sting for sure)? Is he a better challenger/foil for Hogan? Is Orndorff a Hall of Famer? More importantly why do you think it is that Sting gets far more discussion than Orndorff?

 

These aren't trolling questions and I'm actually glad someone is trying to make a case for Sting that doesn't consist entirely of "well he didn't get a fair shake!" But I am seriously curious about how someone who is pro-Sting for the reasons you are pro-Sting would rate Orndorff and perhaps more importantly how much weight we should give to one hot - albeit record setting - year.

[FLIK]

Was bored, wanted to see was Sting REALLY that much of a failure on top, decided to make a list of every PPV Sting was on whear he main evented or was atleast semi-main. This took me like 15 mins tops. Info is from prowrestlinghistory.com

 

My conclusion, when the company was crap & he was on top he couldn't dig them out of the hole but very few others did any better in the same time frame & things would have probably been much worse had he not been around. When the company was hot & he was on top he did great. There was a lot more instances of the former then the later.

 

Starrcade 1988

"True Gritt"

December 26, 1988 in Norfolk, VA

The Scope drawing 10,000 ($150,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.8)

Dusty Rhodes & Sting beat NWA Tag Champs The Road Warriors (11:20) via DQ.

NWA World Champ Ric Flair pinned Lex Luger (30:59).

 

Halloween Havoc 1989

"Settling the Score"

October 28, 1989 in Philadelphia, PA

Civic Center drawing 7,300 ($104,234)

Shown live on PPV (1.77)

Ric Flair & Sting (seconded by Ole Anderson) beat The Great Muta & Terry Funk (seconded by Gary Hart) (21:55) in a "thunderdome" match when Hart threw in the towel. Bruno Sammartino was the special referee.

 

Starrcade 1989

"Future Shock/Night of the Iron Men"

December 13, 1989 in Atlanta, GA

The Omni drawing 6,000 ($70,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.3)

Sting pinned Ric Flair (14:30) to win the Iron Man Tournament.

 

The Great American Bash 1990

"The New Revolution"

July 7, 1990 in Baltimore, MD

Baltimore Arena drawing 10,000 ($153,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.7)

Sting pinned Ric Flair (16:06) to win the NWA World Title.

 

Halloween Havoc 1990

"Terror Rules the Ring"

October 27, 1990 in Chicago, IL

UIC Pavilion drawing 8,000 ($115,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.3)

NWA World Champ Sting pinned Sid Vicious (12:38).

 

Starrcade 1990

"Collision Course"

December 16, 1990 in St Louis, MO

Kiel Auditorium in 7,200 ($93,425)

Shown live on PPV (1.3)

NWA World Champ Sting pinned Black Scorpion (18:31) in a "steel cage" match. Dick the Bruiser was the special referee.

 

WrestleWar 1991

"WarGames"

February 24, 1991 in Phoenix, AZ

Memorial Coliseum drawing 6,800 ($53,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.2)

The Four Horsemen (Flair, Windham, Vicious, & Zbysko) beat Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick & Scott Steiner (21:50) in a "wargames" match when Pillman was KOed by Vicious.

 

WCW/New Japan Supershow

Taped March 21, 1991 in Tokyo, Japan

Shown April 1991 on PPV (0.6)

Great Muta pinned Sting (11:41).

IWGP Champ Tatsumi Fujinami pinned WCW World Champ Ric Flair (23:06) to win the NWA World Title. The WCW and NWA World Titles were acknowledged as separate championships in Japan (unlike the US).

 

The Great American Bash 1991

July 14, 1991 in Baltimore, MD

Baltimore Arena drawing 7,000 ($99,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.0)

Nikita Koloff beat Sting (11:38) in a "Russian chain" match.

Lex Luger pinned Barry Windham (12:25) in a "steel cage" match to win the vacant WCW World Title.

Rick Steiner & Missy Hyatt beat Arn Anderson & Paul E Dangerously (2:08) in a "steel cage" match when Steiner pinned Dangerously

 

Starrcade 1991

"BattleBowl/The Lethal Lottery"

December 29, 1991 in Norfolk, VA

The Scope drawing 9,000 ($92,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.0)

Sting won a "two-ring battle royal" (25:10). All of the winners of the tag team bouts were in the match.

 

WCW/New Japan Supershow II

Taped January 4, 1992 in Tokyo, Japan

Shown March 1992 on PPV (no buy rate listed)

Sting & Keiji Mutoh beat Rick & Scott Steiner (11:03) when Sting pinned Scott.

 

SuperBrawl II

February 29, 1992 in Milwaukee, WI

Mecca Arena drawing 5,000 ($67,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.96)

Sting pinned Lex Luger (13:02) to win the WCW World Title.

 

WrestleWar 1992

"WarGames"

May 17, 1992 in Jacksonville, FL

Jacksonville Coliseum drawing 6,000 ($72,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.61)

Sting, Nikita Koloff, Dustin Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, & Barry Windham beat Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, Steve Austin, Larry Zbysko, & Rick Rude (23:27) in a "wargames" match when Sting forced Eaton to submit.

 

The Great American Bash 1992

July 12, 1992 in Albany, GA

Civic Center drawing 8,000 ($45,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.4)

Big Van Vader pinned Sting (17:17) to win the WCW World Title.

Terry Gordy & Steve Williams beat Dustin Rhodes & Barry Windham (21:10) to win the vacant NWA Tag Title when Williams pinned Rhodes.

 

Halloween Havoc 1992

"Spin the Wheel, Make the Deal"

October 25, 1992 in Philadelphia, PA

Civic Center drawing 7,000 ($75,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.9)

Sting pinned Jake Roberts (10:34) in a "coal miner's glove" match.

 

WCW/New Japan Supershow III

Taped January 4, 1993 in Tokyo Japan

Shown March 1993 on PPV

Sting pinned Hiro Hase (15:31).

 

SuperBrawl III

February 21, 1993 in Asheville, NC

Civic Center drawing 6,500

Shown live on PPV (0.5)

Big Van Vader beat Sting (20:54) in a "leather strap" match.

 

Fall Brawl 1993

"WarGames"

September 19, 1993 in Houston, TX

Astro Arena drawing 6,000 ($33,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.46)

Sting, Davey Smith, Dustin Rhodes, & The Shockmaster beat Sid Vicious, Vader, & Harlem Heat (16:39) in a "wargames" match when The Shockmaster forced Kole to submit.

 

Beach Blast 1993

July 18, 1993 in Biloxi, MS

Gulf Coast Coliseum drawing 8,600 ($33,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.5)

Sting & Davey Smith beat Big Van Vader & Sid Vicious (16:44) when Smith pinned Vader.

 

Starrcade 1993

December 27, 1993 in Charlotte, NC

Independence Arena drawing 8,200 ($62,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.55)

Sting & Road Warrior Hawk beat WCW Tag Champs The Nasty Boys (29:11) via DQ.

Ric Flair pinned Vader (21:11) to win the WCW World Title.

 

SuperBrawl IV

February 20, 1994 in Albany, GA

Civic Center drawing 7,600 ($39,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.5)

Sting, Brian Pillman, & Dustin Rhodes beat Steve Austin, Rick Rude, & Paul Orndorff (14:36) in a "thundercage" match when Pillman pinned Austin.

WCW World Champ Ric Flair beat Vader (11:32) via submission in a "thundercage" match. The Boss was the special referee.

 

Slamboree 1994

"A Legends Reunion"

May 22, 1994 in Philadelphia, PA

Civic Center drawing 4,000 ($53,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.48)

Sting pinned Vader (13:54) to win the vacant WCW International World Title.

 

Fall Brawl 1994

"WarGames"

September 18, 1994 in Roanoke, VA

Civic Center drawing 6,500 ($61,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.53)

Vader beat Sting and The Guardian Angel (30:22)in a "triangular" match.

Vader pinned The Guardian Angel (7:04).

Vader pinned Sting (30:22).

The Nasty Boys, Dusty & Dustin Rhodes beat Terry Funk, Arn Anderson, Bunkhouse Buck, & Robert Parker (19:05) in a "wargames" match when Dusty forced Parker to submit.

 

Starrcade 1994

"Triple Threat"

December 27, 1994 in Nashville, TN

Municipal Auditorium drawing 8,200 ($82,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.6)

Mr. T pinned Kevin Sullivan (3:50).

Sting beat Avalanche (15:26) via DQ.

WCW World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned The Butcher (12:07).

 

SuperBrawl V

February 19, 1995 in Baltimore, MD

Baltimore Arena drawing 13,390 ($165,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.95)

Sting & Randy Savage beat Avalanche & Big Bubba Rogers (10:18) when Sting pinned Avalanche.

WCW World Champ Hulk Hogan beat Vader (15:10) via DQ.

 

Slamboree 1995

"A Legends Reunion"

May 21, 1995 in St. Petersburg, FL

Bayfront Center drawing 7,000 ($94,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.57)

Sting beat Big Bubba Rogers (9:29) via submission.

Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage beat Ric Flair & Vader (18:57) when Hogan pinned Flair.

 

The Great American Bash 1995

June 18, 1995 in Dayton, OH

Hara Arena drawing 6,000 ($63,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.51)

Sting pinned Meng (13:34) to win the vacant WCW U.S. Title.

Ric Flair pinned Randy Savage (14:42).

 

Fall Brawl 1995

"WarGames"

September 17, 1995 in Asheville, NC

Civic Center drawing 6,600 ($72,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.48)

Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Lex Luger, & Sting beat Kamala, Zodiac, Shark, & Meng (18:47) in a "wargames" match when Hogan forced Zodiac to submit.

 

World War 3 1995

November 26, 1995 in Norfolk, VA

The Scope drawing 12,000 ($113,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.43)

Sting beat Ric Flair (14:30) via submission.

Randy Savage won a "three ring battle royal" (29:40) to win the vacant WCW World Title.

 

Starrcade 1995

"World Cup of Wrestling"

December 27, 1995 in Nashville, TN

Municipal Auditorium drawing 8,200 ($83,855)

Shown live on PPV (0.36)

Sting (WCW) pinned Kensuke Sasaki (NJ) (6:52) to win the World Cup of Wrestling 4-3.

Ric Flair beat Lex Luger and Sting (28:03) via countout in a "triangle" match.

Ric Flair pinned Randy Savage (8:41) to win the WCW World Title.

 

Uncensored 1996

March 24, 1996 in Tupelo, MS

Tupelo Coliseum drawing 9,000 ($104,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.7)

Sting & Booker T beat The Road Warriors (29:33) in a "Chicago street fight" when Booker pinned Hawk.

Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage beat Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Meng, Barbarian, Lex Luger, Kevin Sullivan, Ze Gangsta, & The Ultimate Solution (25:16) in a "tower of doom" match when Savage pinned Flair.

 

Slamboree 1996

"Lord of the Ring"

May 19, 1996 in Baton Rouge, LA

The Riverside Centroplex drawing 7,791 ($104,760)

Shown live on PPV (0.44)

WCW World Champ The Giant pinned Sting (10:41).

 

Bash at the Beach 1996

July 7, 1996 in Daytona Beach, FL

Ocean Center drawing 8,300 ($72,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.71)

Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, & Hulk Hogan NC Randy Savage, Sting, & Lex Luger (16:00).

 

Hogg Wild 1996

August 10, 1996 in Sturgis, SD

Sturgis Rally & Race drawing 5,000 ($0)

Shown live on PPV (0.62)

Scott Hall & Kevin Nash beat Lex Luger & Sting (14:36) when Hall pinned Luger.

Hulk Hogan pinned The Giant (14:55) to win the WCW World Title.

 

Fall Brawl 1996

"WarGames"

September 15, 1996 in Winston-Salem, NC

Lawrence Joel Coliseum drawing 11,300 ($153,914)

Shown live on PPV (0.65)

Hulk Hogan, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, & NWO Sting beat Lex Luger, Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, & Sting (18:15) in a "wargames" match when NWO Sting forced Luger to submit

 

Starrcade 1997

December 28, 1997 in Washington, D.C.

MCI Center drawing 17,500 ($543,000)

Shown live on PPV (1.9)

Sting beat Hulk Hogan (12:54) via submission to win the WCW World Title.

 

SuperBrawl VIII

February 22, 1998 in San Fransisco, CA

Cow Palace drawing 12,620 ($310,974)

Shown live on PPV (1.1)

Sting pinned Hulk Hogan (16:32) to win the vacant WCW World Title.

 

Uncensored 1998

March 15, 1998 in Mobile, AL

Civic Center drawing 7,474 ($150,135)

Shown live on PPV (1.1)

WCW World Champ Sting pinned Scott Hall (8:28).

Hulk Hogan NC Randy Savage (16:21) in a "steel cage" match.

 

Spring Stampede 1998

April 19, 1998 in Denver, CO

Denver Coliseum drawing 7,428 ($235,251)

Shown live on PPV (0.72)

Randy Savage pinned Sting (10:08) to win the WCW World Title.

 

Slamboree 1998

May 17, 1998 in Worcester, MA

The Centrum drawing 11,592 ($352,035)

Shown live on PPV (0.72)

Sting & The Giant beat Kevin Nash & Scott Hall (14:46) to win the WCW Tag Title when Giant pinned Nash.

 

The Great American Bash 1998

June 14, 1998 in Baltimore, MD

Baltimore Arena drawing 12,810 ($289,345)

Shown live on PPV (0.75)

Sting pinned The Giant (6:40). As a result Sting was allowed to choose a partner to become WCW Tag Champs as he and The Giant had joined opposing NWO factions. Sting chose Kevin Nash.

 

Road Wild 1998

August 8, 1998 in Sturgis, SD

Sturgis Rally & Race drawing 8,500 ($0)

Shown live on PPV (0.93)

Bill Goldberg won a "battle royal" (7:58). Also in the match were: The Giant, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig, Konnan, Lex Luger, Kevin Nash, Scott Norton, and Sting.

Diamond Dallas Page & Jay Leno (seconded by Kevin Eubanks) beat Hulk Hogan & Eric Bischoff (14:34) when Leno pinned Bischoff.

Travis Tritt mini-concert.

 

Fall Brawl 1998

"WarGames"

September 13, 1998 in Winston-Salem, NC

Lawrence Joel Coliseum drawing 11,528 ($218,780)

Shown live on PPV (0.70)

Diamond Dallas Page pinned Stevie Ray (20:06) to win "wargames." Also in the match were: Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Lex Luger, Kevin Nash, Roddy Piper, Sting, and Ultimate Warrior

 

Fall Brawl 1999

September 12, 1998 in Winston-Salem, NC

Lawrence Joel Coliseum drawing 7,491 ($97,600)

Shown live on PPV (0.29)

Sting pinned Hulk Hogan (13:55) to win the WCW World Title

 

Spring Stampede 1999

April 11, 1999 in Tacoma, WA

Tacoma Dome drawing 17,690 ($582,230)

Shown live on PPV (0.6)

Diamond Dallas Page beat Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, & Sting (17:27) in a "four corners" match to win the WCW World Title. Randy Savage was the special referee.

 

Slamboree 1999

May 9, 1999 in St. Louis, MO

TWA Arena drawing 20,516 ($494,795)

Shown live on PPV (0.45)

Sting NC Bill Goldberg (8:17).

Kevin Nash pinned Diamond Dallas Page (16:45) to win the WCW World Title.

 

Bash at the Bash 1999

July 11, 1999 in Ft. Lauderdale, FL

National Car Rental Center drawing 13,624 ($444,737)

Shown live on PPV (0.4)

Randy Savage & Sid Vicious beat Kevin Nash & Sting (13:21) when Savage pinned Nash. As a result savage won the WCW World Title.

 

Halloween Havoc 1999

October 24, 1999 in Las Vegas, NV

MGM Grand Garden Arena drawing 8,464 ($314,000)

Shown live on PPV (0.52)

Bill Goldberg pinned Sting (3:08) to win the WCW World Title.

 

Spring Stampede 2000

April 16, 2000 in Chicago, IL

United center drawing 12,556 ($272,930)

Shown live on PPV (0.25)

Scott Steiner pinned Sting (5:33) to win the vacant WCW U.S. Title.

Jeff Jarrett pinned Diamond Dallas Page (15:02) to win the vacant WCW World Title.

 

Great American Bash 2000

June 11, 2000 in Baltimore, MD

Baltimore Arena drawing 7,031 ($154,445)

Shown live on PPV (0.19)

Vampiro beat Sting (7:23) in an "inferno" match.

WCW World Champ Jeff Jarrett pinned Kevin Nash (17:22).

 

Halloween Havoc 2000

October 29, 2000 in Las Vegas, NV

MGM Grand Garden Arena drawing 7,582 ($212,698)

Shown live on PPV (0.15)

Jeff Jarrett pinned Sting (14:38).

WCW World Champ Booker T beat Scott Steiner (13:27) via DQ.

Bill Goldberg beat Bryan Adams & Bryan Clark (3:35) in a "handicap" match.

Goldberg pinned Clark (2:25).

Goldberg pinned Adams (3:35).

 

Millennium Final

November 16, 2000 in Oberhausen, Germany

Arena Oberhausen drawing 9,000

Shown live on German PPV

WCW European Cup Champ Sting beat Kevin Nash via submission. Boxer Axel Schultz was the guest referee.

[FLIK]

Same deal for Clash of the Champions cards

 

Clash of the Champions

March 27, 1988 in Greensboro, NC

Greensboro Coliseum drawing 6,000

Shown live on TBS (5.8)

NWA World Champ Ric Flair drew Sting (45:00). Gary Juster, Sandy Scott, and Penthouse Pet Patty Mullins were the judges.

 

Clash of the Champions II

"Miami Mayhem"

June 8, 1988 in Miami, FL

James L Knight Center drawing 2,400

Shown live on TBS (4.8)

NWA Tag Champs Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard DDQ Sting & Dusty Rhodes (10:58)

 

Clash of the Champions III

"Fall Brawl"

September 7, 1988 in Albany, GA

Civic Center drawing 3,700

Shown live on TBS (5.4)

Sting beat NWA U.S. Champ Barry Windham (21:14) via DQ.

 

Clash of the Champions VIII

"Fall Brawl"

September 12, 1989 in Columbia, SC

USC Carolina Coliseum drawing 2,600

Shown live on TBS (4.7)

Sting & Ric Flair beat Dick Slater & The Great Muta (19:16) via DQ.

 

Clash of the Champions XII

"Fall Brawl/Mountain Madness"

September 5, 1990 in Asheville, NC

Civic Center drawing 4,000

Shown live on TBS (5.0)

NWA World Champ Sting pinned The Black Scorpion (Al Perez) (8:13).

 

Clash of the Champions XVII

November 19, 1991 in Savannah, GA

Civic Center drawing 6,922

Shown live on TBS (4.3)

Rick Rude pinned Sting (4:50) to win the WCW U.S. Title.

WCW World Champ Lex Luger pinned Rick Steiner (11:30).

 

Clash of the Champions XVIII

January 21, 1992 in Topeka, KS

Expocenter drawing 5,500 ($24,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.7)

Sting & Ricky Steamboat beat Steve Austin & Rick Rude (11:21) when Sting pinned Austin.

 

Clash of the Champions XX

"20th Anniversary"

September 2, 1992 in Atlanta, GA

Center Stage drawing 500 ($4,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.7)

Rick Rude, Jake Roberts, Super Invader, & Big Van Vader beat Sting, Nikita Koloff, Rick & Scott Steiner (15:57) in an "elimination" match. Rude & Roberts were the survivors.

 

Clash of the Champions XXI

November 18, 1992 in Macon, GA

Macon Coliseum drawing 7,500

Shown live on TBS (3.2)

Sting drew Rick Rude (20:00). This was a King of Cable Tournament match. Sting advanced via decision.

Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas beat Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes (15:52) to win the NWA & WCW Tag Title when Douglas pinned Windham.

 

Clash of the Champions XXII

January 13, 1993 in Milwaukee, WI

Mecca Arena drawing 4,000 ($14,000)

Shown live on TBS (2.9)

Dustin Rhodes, Sting, & Cactus Jack beat Big Van Vader, Paul Orndorff, & Barry Windham (11:22) in a "steel cage" match when Cactus pinned Orndorff.

 

Clash of the Champions XXIII

June 16, 1993 in Norfolk, VA

The Scope drawing 6,000 ($20,000)

Shown live on TBS (2.6)

Big Van Vader, Sid Vicious, & Rick Rude beat Dustin Rhodes, Sting, & Davey Smith (10:59) when Rude pinned Rhodes.

Ric Flair & Arn Anderson beat NWA & WCW Tag Champs Brian Pillman & Steve Austin (20:45) in two straight falls.

Flair pinned Pillman (9:40).

Pillman & Austin were DQed (20:45).

 

Clash of the Champions XXV

November 10, 1993 in St Petersburg, FL

Bayfront Center drawing 6,000 ($17,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.3)

The Nasty Boys beat Sting & Davey Smith when Knobbs pinned Smith (8:30).

Ric Flair beat WCW World Champ Vader (9:24) via DQ.

 

Clash of the Champions XXVI

January 27, 1994 in Baton Rouge, LA

Riverside Centroplex drawing 3,200 ($21,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.5)

Sting & Ric Flair beat Vader & Rick Rude (22:27) in an "elimination" match. Sting was the survivor.

Flair and Vader were counted out.

Sting pinned Rude (22:07).

 

Clash of the Champions XXVII

June 23, 1994 in Charleston, SC

North Charleston Coliseum drawing 6,700 ($42,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.0)

WCW World Champ Ric Flair pinned Sting (17:17) to win the WCW International World Title.

 

Clash of the Champions XXIX

November 16, 1994 in Jacksonville, FL

Jacksonville Coliseum drawing 4,000 ($38,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.6)

Hulk Hogan, Sting, & Dave Sullivan beat The Butcher, Avalanche, & Kevin Sullivan (10:55) when Hogan pinned Sullivan. Mr. T was the special referee.

 

Clash of the Champions XXX

January 25, 1995 in Las Vegas, NV

Caeser's Palace drawing 3,200 ($21,000)

Shown live on TBS (3.5)

Sting beat Avalanche (5:22) via submission.

Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage beat Kevin Sullivan & The Butcher (11:04) when Hogan pinned The Butcher.

 

Clash of the Champions XXXIII

August 15, 1996 in Denver, CO

Denver Coliseum drawing 8,304 ($70,111)

Shown live on TBS (3.5)

WCW Tag Champs Harlem Heat NC Rick & Scott Steiner and Sting & Lex Luger (13:22) in a "triangle" match.

Ric Flair beat WCW World Champ Hulk Hogan (8:23) via DQ.

 

Other notable big shows

 

Monday Nitro

January 5, 1998 in Atlanta, GA

Georgia Dome drawing 26,773 ($510,610)

Shown live on TNT (4.3)

Sting & Lex Luger beat Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage.

 

Boston Brawl

January 31, 1998 in Boston, MA

Fleet Center drawing 18,759 ($325,154)

Live Audio on Internet PPL

Sting pinned Hulk Hogan in a "steel cage" match.

 

Monday Nitro

February 2, 1998 in San Antonio, TX

AlamoDome drawing 21,000 ($446,000)

Shown live on TNT (4.9)

Randy Savage beat Sting via DQ.

 

February 26, 1999 in San Antonio, TX

AlamoDome drawing 14,653

Sting beat Bret Hart.

Bill Goldberg beat Bam Bam Bigelow

 

1st Annual Ilio DiPaolo Memorial

June 7, 1996 in Buffalo, NY

War Memorial Auditorium drawing 14,852 ($193,456)

WCW World Champ The Giant beat Sting (7:09) via DQ.

 

4th Annual Ilio DiPaolo Memorial

June 11, 1999 in Buffalo, NY

Midland Arena drawing 10,034 ($126,177)

Sting beat Diamond Dallas Page.

 

Monday Nitro

June 21, 1999 in New Orleans, LA

Superdome drawing17,249 ($346,424)

Shown live on TNT (3.1)

Sting NC Randy Savage

 

Monday Nitro

May 8, 2000 in St. Louis, MO

TWA Dome drawing 6,545

Shown live on TNT (2.8)

WCW World Champ Jeff Jarrett pinned Sting.

[NintendoLogic]

I would throw out the results with Sting in the semi-main, especially if Hogan or Flair is in the main event. It wasn't like he was Bruno Sammartino and voluntarily stepped down after drawing huge for years.

[jdw]

I think The Renegade is legit in the top 5. I mean, there's an argument to say he was driven to suicide because of the way he was booked -- pretty extreme case, but it's one where you can see how his life was affected by mishandling by bookers.

Renegade being one of the top 5 most screwed over by the booker guys in pro wrestling history is... well... pretty crackers.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I thank Flik for dragging those results over. I think to a large degree they tell us what we already know, but it's nice to have something in front of us. It's not the full story because house show attendance still mattered as much or more than buyrates/ratings for a big chunk of the era in question, but it's nice to have someone do the legwork.

[FLIK]

I would throw out the results with Sting in the semi-main, especially if Hogan or Flair is in the main event.

I included them mostly because often times shows aren't built around just 1 single match as the big draw. As an unintended side effect it also kinda shows that a lot of stuff whear Sting wasn't the main event didn't do much better then the shows when he was, like when Flair came back & was headlining agian in 93/94.

 

Hogan coming in spiked things HUGE. Some of his shows drew 2x what the typical WCW average was at the time. One interesting thing though I did kind of discover was that Hogan on his own wasn't enough to do it. For his first couple of years before the NWO he only really drew well against the other big name established WCW guys at the time in singles matches and when he was in any other situation he only did the same or just slightly better then anyone else WCW had on top.

 

Hogan/Flair was big in 94, Hogan vs Beefcake didn't do squat compared to Hogan vs others, Hogan/Vader was big, Hogan/Savage vs Vader/Flair didn't do super well surprisingly, Hogan & buddies vs Dungeon of Doom gimmick matches didn't do well, Hogan vs Giant didn't do well, Giant in generall was death on top when he debued actually.

[Slasher]

I think The Renegade is legit in the top 5. I mean, there's an argument to say he was driven to suicide because of the way he was booked -- pretty extreme case, but it's one where you can see how his life was affected by mishandling by bookers.

Renegade being one of the top 5 most screwed over by the booker guys in pro wrestling history is... well... pretty crackers.

 

John

 

If anything he got a juiced up (pun somewhat intended) push based on his look and Hogan's need to have a Warrior character for an inexplicable reason. As far as I recall, he was nowhere ready for the push and was not really a good worker at all. Not to sound overly unsympathetic, but it isn't the bookers' fault his mental makeup was so weak he had to commit suicide because of his failure as a pro wrestler.

[med2089]

The one thing that really surprised me here with all the numbers posted is how the NWO didn't bump up PPV sales. In fact, even though it was a slight drop, the buyrates still were lower in the two months following Hogan's turn.

[FLIK]

The one thing that really surprised me here with all the numbers posted is how the NWO didn't bump up PPV sales.

It did & didn't. 0.6 - 0.7 was about the average for a Hogan "B" show which is what WCW was doing at the start of the year then things droped big time, down to 0.4 range for the 2 PPVs before the NWO came along which were headlined by the Giant vs Sting & then vs Luger (Giant also bombed vs Hogan at the 1st Souled Out PPV). So the NWO did bump things back up but just back to whear they used to be a few months before. Also should be noted that the Hog/Road wild PPVs never drew big except for the year Leno came in.

 

The first big buy rates for WCW during the NWO days didn't come until late 96 & early 97 with the Hogan/Piper feud.

[EricR]

Sting had 10 years to get over to a massive degree. Goldberg took less than one year of beating Jerry Flynn 20 times and Jackhammering Reis to become a bigger star than Sting ever was. Then after a couple years of inactivity came into WWF and was still a bigger star than Sting ever was. Nobody is arguing for Goldberg's inclusion into the HOF, but to me he seems like a way more worthwhile candidate than Sting.

You're ignoring that wrestling's a cooperative performance art and not a sport, so the fact that Sting didn't single-handedly become a national phenomenon in a bad promotion is not necessarily a damning measure of his worth as a performer.

 

To use counter-examples from other performance arts: despite being given starring vehicles funded by major Hollywood studios, Brad Pitt didn't become a megastar until 1994. This sort of Gordy Lister logic would suggest that Brad Pitt was not good at his job until 1994, when in fact we should be considering that Sting is a guy that spent the majority of his career starring in the wrestling version of Cool World but when tested with non-destructive angles passed with flying colors. There's no reason to treat his ability as a performer or draw as merely theoretical when he was a critical part of one of wrestling's hugest and best-drawing angles. Orson Welles could be dismissed as a guy with a "single good year" for Touch of Evil who invariably failed during the multiple times he was pushed on top. This is, of course, nonsense indicative of an overly-exclusive and arbitrary approach to quantifying worth that pretends it's anything but.

 

Goldberg found wrestling's version of overnight success in an already molten hot promotional environment -- created with the help of, uh, Sting -- a luxury a handful of wrestlers have had and certainly one Sting didn't have in the late 80s and early 90s. Sting was tasked with lifting dead weight, Goldberg was carried on shoulders. No one find success in a vacuum, and the idea that building a monster aura was a trick that Goldberg had to perform all by himself not once but twice is laughable.

 

Some stars just burn brighter over shorter periods than others. Goldberg is John Cazale. Many others have been given pushes similar to the beginnings of Goldberg's push, but none of them caught on anywhere close to the same level as Goldberg did. The implication that Goldberg got over mostly due to booking while completely ignoring his instant star appeal is just annoying. Both were lucky enough to start their careers with the right people at the right time, but shone with his given material like few actors ever have.

 

Sting is more like Lance Henriksen or Michael Ironside. Tons of great moments over his career and plenty of opportunities to give great lead performances, then spending the latter part of his career doing good work in bad productions. Also, Sting isn't nearly as cool as Ironside or Henriksen.

[FLIK]

The implication that Goldberg got over mostly due to booking while completely ignoring his instant star appeal is just annoying.

 

To be fair Goldberg wasn't over at all for the 1st couple months of his career when he was part of that weird mish mash stable Debra had with Alex Wright & was feuding with Mongo McMichael. Had WCW not wised up pretty quick & moved him off that road to no whear he could have easily ended up a nobody in wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

FLIK, I was in the process of doing this but with houseshows rather than supercards or Clashes.

 

The conclusion is the same though: Sting seems to have no effect on the performance of any given card. In fact, there are no discernable effects from ANY main eventers, Ron Simmons, Vader, Steamboat, Rude, Dustin Rhodes, Windham, Austin, even Flair ... none of them seem to make a blind bit of difference.

 

There are cards with only 400 people with Sting, Vader, Rude and Steamboat in the main event. There are cards with Sting vs. Orndorff on top a month later drawing 3,000.

 

It all depends on:

 

- hotness of the company

- the town

 

Seems like at certain periods in 92 and 93, there is absolutely nothing that could be done to make people attend those shows. Top, top crowds are like 6,000 max and some of those seem to have comps. Doesn't matter who is in the main event.

 

What I haven't done yet is to look at the WWF cards over the same time period to see if BRET is making a difference or not.

 

Here is my hypothesis:

 

After about 1987 (i.e. after the end of the territory system), most main event wrestlers DO NOT make a discernible difference on attendance figures, the ones that do can be counted on two hands.

 

Hogan, Rock, Austin - these are guys who can make 1000s of people attend a show who wouldn't have otherwise.

 

The rest of the time the hotness of the company is the only differentiator. Doesn't matter if it's Sting, Steamboat, Bret Hart or Kevin Nash.

 

Conclusion: Guys like Hogan give us an unrealistic and skewed perspective on what draws can be and how to measure them. He is the exception, rather than the rule. i.e. MOST guys make no real difference to the amount of people who watch wrestling matches live.

 

-------------------------

 

On the other point: I don't care, I'm not withdrawing my claims that evilclown has been pompous.

 

Beyond that, I think if you are on a serious discussion board, particularly one discussing a wrestling Hall of Fame, one with members that span the entirety of pro wrestling history, then it doesn't make sense to use phrases like "best ever" unless that's what you mean. What you meant was "best I could think of off the top of my head."

Absurdly pompous.

 

"serious discussion board"

 

"pro wrestling"

 

"serious discussion board"

 

"pro wrestling"

 

"serious"

 

"pro wrestling"

 

 

And for the record, I do not think that any of us on this entire forum can have a serious discussion on any wrestlers who pre-date the 1970s. How can we with no footage? Guesswork based on a few title histories and a few figures? For all intents and purposes, "best ever" might as well mean "Since the 1970s".

 

Since when has "ever" actually meant "ever" in the world of talking about wrestling?

 

Are we going to be that pedantic, that uptight, that "serious" on this forum as to quibble over semantics each and every time hyperbole is employed? Well?

[JerryvonKramer]

I think The Renegade is legit in the top 5. I mean, there's an argument to say he was driven to suicide because of the way he was booked -- pretty extreme case, but it's one where you can see how his life was affected by mishandling by bookers.

Renegade being one of the top 5 most screwed over by the booker guys in pro wrestling history is... well... pretty crackers.

 

John

 

If anything he got a juiced up (pun somewhat intended) push based on his look and Hogan's need to have a Warrior character for an inexplicable reason. As far as I recall, he was nowhere ready for the push and was not really a good worker at all. Not to sound overly unsympathetic, but it isn't the bookers' fault his mental makeup was so weak he had to commit suicide because of his failure as a pro wrestler.

 

I don't think he should have ever been put in that spot. It was a stupid idea. And the way they buried him after initially pushing him to the moon is, in my view, harsh (on him, obviously it was necessary). "Screwed over" is perhaps not the right phrase. But I think that the bookers are in some way culpable -- for putting him in a situation in where he could only ever have failed, for giving him an unrealistic set of expectations, for going in so hard with the idea (a terrible idea) and then pulling the plug on it so quickly. Obviously, the key factor in the suicide itself, is his mental constitution, but I don't think that the bookers are entirely without culpability. It's not a binary. There may be multiple factors for any given event. I don't think it's "irresponsible" to make this point.

 

If Renegade is not top 5 "screwed over" by bookers, fine, but I think it's top 5 "examples of worst booking since the 1970s".

[Loss]

Wrestling was in a big lull from 1992-1996. It's sometimes called the dark ages because business was so bad. So, excluding Bret, who I think most of us agree should have had to go on the ballot, there is no one in the HOF for what they accomplished in the U.S. between 1992 and 1996, except maybe Vader. And Vader is in for being the best working guy at his size possibly ever, more than he is in for being a huge draw.

 

Sting is not the reason WCW wasn't successful. As I mentioned before, it was a dysfunctional promotion. But had Sting overcome all of that to draw anyway, that would be his HOF case. He didn't.

 

Sting drew a huge number opposite one of the biggest draws ever, and never really drew any other big numbers. The same could be said for Larry Zbyszko.